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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/2/2008 6:35:30 PM

leakylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JaloHurmuri

Safewords are utmost important to majority of the players, simply because most dominants are not capable, or interested, of reading their subjects. Subbies may not be intelligent enough to read their doms and understand how to give suttle instructions about her personal limits.

quote:

ok i will tell ya...

even though i rarely use them, and dont really care for them. safewords arent a bad idea for me. as a single submissive who scenes with a few TRUSTED partners that know, care, are interested, that pay attention, yadda yadda. they do everything they are supposed to. myself, kinda off in varying degrees of orbit, (so brains arent really present anyhow) but that safe word is still kinda handy. i have never needed to use it. normally wouldnt have enough sense, but for me it is safer to have that safety net at this time, than not.

lee

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/2/2008 11:14:00 PM

SurrenderForMe

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Two points. I object to "most dominants are not capable, or interested, of reading their subjects." Where did you get those statistics? Or do you mean, in my experience, my perception is that most dominants are not capable, or interested, of reading their subjects? Or possibly, were you using yourself as the example?

Second point. I find safewords to be silly, as you said. I speak with the person who has decided to trust me at whatever level. I have used red, yellow and green to get a feel for a new person for intensity and left it as a back up for when I, as a fallible human being, might misjudge. I have found that safewords in general, do not achieve the stated objective of safety and communication. They undermine the submission. I have done endless scenes with people who say and/or really want to submit. Safewords undermined the ability to really enter the mindset. End result, I work with whoever to feel out how to get the best of both worlds. A protection for unexpected negatives and an atmosphere that allows us to really experience the moments. I personally prefer, conversation and practical experience, before, during and/or after to work out the (pardon the expression) kinks.

< Message edited by SurrenderForMe -- 7/2/2008 11:16:54 PM >

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/2/2008 11:53:07 PM

HarryVanWinkle

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"Rules? There ain't no rules in a knife fight."

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 12:27:12 AM

Owner4SexSlave

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Just who is the "we" that should do the dividing? What's this business with categories?

There are many people that don't use safewords, and are good at reading body language and other things. There are those that use safewords, and some people use different types of words.

Basically a safeword or safeword(s) are just a understood form of communication between two people.

Does it somehow make one feel more special, unique or different or stronger in not using them? Does it somehow make people that use them less special or different or weak?

In all honestly, in any relationship that I had somebody safewords were not an issue. Why? Because it was a relationship.

Now in terms of playing with somebody, that I was not in a trusted relationship, the safeword system was in place, for use just in case.

I'll go either way with this, depending how well I know the person. If I'm in an actual relationship with them and etc..

So what do you purpose to do with me, cut me in fucking half now? LOL...

Yada Yada Yada.... Blah Blah Blah.....

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 2:26:03 AM

Lashra

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You are of course speaking for yourself and yourself alone. How you run your relationships is your business. I am a Dominant and have been for many years. I can read My sub extremely well and yet I allow him a safeword, why? In case he needs it, emergencies DO happen even to the best of us.

Because we chose to have a safeword in place does NOT make us incapable, insensitive, fake, stupid or careless. It means it is a tool meant to be used if need be. Yes I do choose to play SSC and that of course is My choice what others think of it well, frankly I could care less. I have a lot of empathy and courage but that does not mean I am foolhardy enough to endanger my sub. A broken toy is no fun at least in my eyes.

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 3:45:43 AM

HalloweenWhite

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Well, Y/you can A/all have Me banned by the Mods. if you like because I'm about to make a sweeping statement. The rules of the game should be followed because without S.S.C and an obvious adherance to it how can Y/you tell the stable ones from the....unstable ones; S.S.C isn't just about not doing what Your submissive doesn't need/enjoy or only going as far as Your submissive can go, its about being responsible for and with that person's body. Because....if it aint Consentual it aint Safe and it probably won't be Safe.

So its wrong. So what if I can't read My submissive? I'm not a mind reader, and as far as empathy is concerened, You gain that over time as You get to know someone better. Just because I use safe words, limits, etc. doesn't make Me a bad Dom.

I find the implication offensive.

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 3:47:06 AM

malloves69

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agrees with Ms Lashra 100 %

safe words are there for a reason ..my mistress reads me extremely well ..but sometimes things might get out of hand while both are enjoying the scene a safe word is there just in case you have to use it

she backs off then we communicate to each other how im feeling and what went wrong per se ...love a lady in control

saw my mistress yesterday she is a amazing woman indeed

have fun ..mal

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 3:48:48 AM

thishereboi

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Why do you feel the need to divide up anyone? Why do you care if others use safewords? If you don't enjoy playing with safewords, then find subs who don't need them and have fun. This does not make you better or worse than anyone else.

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 3:53:35 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterErrant

I'm not much for the established rules...many of the are PCC (Politically correct crap) Designed to make us more accepeible to the ret of the world.

I use safe words. As unless you are superhuman you can't predict everything...Murphy you know. But I make it clear that useing them is very bad and a last resort. Worthy of discipline at least and punishment for misuse. Thus it becomes a part of the scene.
Beside the fact that happy subs ETC. make better ones.

You punish your subs for using a safeword? Who decides if it was misused?

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 4:17:51 AM

pinkwind

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We play more under the ethos of RACK, Risk Aware Consensual Kink rather than under the SSC ethos, i would not call them rules but more the commonly held fundamental values of the majority of kinky folk. Nobody sets out to damage or fatally wound another human being, but we have to accept, all of us who play on the edge, that accidents and the unforeseen can happen.

The OP is entitled to his own opinion, as are you in response, it just proves that we all have strongly held but differing ideas about how to conduct ourselves and look after ourselves. What i found galling about the OP was that the sweeping statements and generalisations were so far off the mark, and called a larger number of peoples attentiveness and empathy, even basic abilities into question.

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 4:22:41 AM

HalloweenWhite

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkwind

We play more under the ethos of RACK, Risk Aware Consensual Kink rather than under the SSC ethos, i would not call them rules but more the commonly held fundamental values of the majority of kinky folk. Nobody sets out to damage or fatally wound another human being, but we have to accept, all of us who play on the edge, that accidents and the unforeseen can happen.

The OP is entitled to his own opinion, as are you in response, it just proves that we all have strongly held but differing ideas about how to conduct ourselves and look after ourselves. What i found galling about the OP was that the sweeping statements and generalisations were so far off the mark, and called a larger number of peoples attentiveness and empathy, even basic abilities into question.

Yes, His generalisations were what got to Me, too. And you're absolutely right about E/everyone having the right to their oppinion.

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 4:51:45 AM

StrangerThan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

/rubs both her eyes vigorously before grabbing some towels and window cleaner and scrubbing hard at the monitor screen

quote:

Safewords are utmost important to majority of the players, simply because most dominants are not capable, or interested, of reading their subjects. Subbies may not be intelligent enough to read their doms and understand how to give suttle instructions about her personal limits.

Am I reading this right?
/rubs eyes one more time

Yep, it has not changed.

Did this...person....actually say that we are not intelligent enough to convey to another when a limit has been reached?

NOt to mention the fact that he said Dominants aren't sensitive or....human...enough to read the emotions of the person that they are playing with.

My mind boggles at the complete ignorance of some people.

There's no ignorance in what he wrote. It's more of a sign of how he plays and with whom he plays. I've known several people who ventured into the equivalent of a dim, dark alley by running off to play BDSM games with someone they either met on the internet or someone they ran into in a club without doing the primary prerequisite stuff you'd do for any relationship, namely do you even like the person first? And more importantly, can you trust what they say? I don't think I can stress that last line enough.

Anyone can take a crayon, write Dom across a piece of paper and tape it to their forehead. For a lot of people, that's all it takes. Why that is, I'm not sure except that too often I see people enter or playing at the edge of this "lifestyle" at the same time that they have apparently abandoned all common sense. Carry that forward in a logical sense, and on the opposing end is everything humanity has to offer, good Doms, bad ones, one's who just finished marking the letters out in black crayon and are still trying to find the scotch tape.

I have no problem with safe words. Reading that someone feels less... domly if they grant one is a sign to me that the understanding isn't there to begin with. Anyone who has ever been deep enough in subspace to not be able to get the word out quickly enough understands that no safe word will ever replace the fact that the person you're giving control to is responsible for reading you, your body, knowing the movements that tell him where you are, knowing that you're going to need him afterwards, that you are his responsibility when you've given him that control.

Not taking the time to do the basic relationship stuff, or at least time to become comfortable with someone before you play is an invitation to come home broken. I've seen it before, helped a few through it. So I don't see it as ignorance, but more as an indicator of how and with whom he plays.

Places like this, like this site and these forums serve both a good and bad purpose. On one side is the sharing of information, experience and advice that is helpful. On the other is this vague but shining monument that attempts to define what a Dom is and what a submissive is, and what the experience should be without really emphasizing that discovering yourself and what is right for you is a journey. You can find the most experienced Dominant or Master, and yet if you don't know what you need, don't understand yourself enough yet to know what is right for you and what isn't, you may learn a lot, and still be unsatisfied. Too many expect someone else to do that for them. It's lazy.

Safewords are useless without trusting the individual first. After all, I can tell you all day long that you can shout "red" and I'll stop. What good is my word to you if you can't trust me to begin with? What good is it if it takes you a minute or two to get the word out? What I see his post as, is more of the difference between people who have taken the time to understand themselves and find a compatible match in that understanding, those who simply play, and those who simply play ignorantly.

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 4:55:05 AM

Lynnxz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterErrant

But I make it clear that useing them is very bad and a last resort. Worthy of discipline at least and punishment for misuse.

Goddamnit, you bad bad girl... if your wrists go numb one more time, I'm going to beat your ass.

I've never understood this philosophy. How about a big steaming pile of pay attention from the top? Yeah... that works for me. I do the pro sub thing... I play with a decent amount lot of people, and I have only had to safeword with a couple of idiots who are just oblivious to everything around them... including the person they are laying into with a cane. Seriously?

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 5:15:23 AM

chasen

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I have never used safe words; never even thought about using them. I have found, in my own relationships, that safe words were not necessary. However; I would never recommend to another to 'do away' with them simply because the person they are playing with does not believe in them. For some, safe words are necessary to their own peace of mind. Who am I to tell them that they are 'playing the game wrong'?

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 6:23:17 AM

pettingdragons

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the only rules this slave folows are her Masters......

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 7:04:38 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadow-tiger

You always play Safe, Sane & Consenual. Period. I can think of specific instances where two adults may negotiate things that push the limits. But you just don't break your toys.

I would have to disagree with this statement, and say that SSC and not breaking your toys really have no relationship to one another. I've seen dominants playing within the boundaries of SSC who -still- broke their toys... and I've seen dominants practicing edge-play arts on submissive individuals with no safeword in place and doing things that may have been consentual, but which stretched the boundaries of culturally recognized 'safety', and perhaps even 'sanity', and yet the toys came through just fine.

SSC and RACK don't guarantee safety for submissive individuals -- and the absence of these community-adopted standards don't automatically mean that a submissive individual or a dominant individual are in danger, or are a danger to each other.

I think that SSC and RACK are useful for beginners who are skittish about what they can do safely to explore -- but there is life beyond the packaged safety talks that doesn't result in horribly damaged individuals. The key is knowing who you are playing with, and taking responsibility for your own decision-making process. We're often quick to blame someone else when things go wrong... or happy to point fingers according to whatever criteria we've established as 'fair' in our own minds... but the reality is that all of us who choose to participate in this way of life, and who choose to push the intensity higher with tools and toys that can hurt or harm, have to take responsibility for our own participation.

The only rule that I retain consistently is the "rule" about consentual play -- if everyone participating is an adult, hasn't been drinking or doing drugs that impair the ability to make decisions, and consciously chooses to participate after full disclosure... more power to them. I won't play with someone who hasn't been informed and doesn't agree to what we're doing, but for me, that's just common sense.

Firestorm

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 7:32:05 AM

RedMagic1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz
How about a big steaming pile of pay attention from the top?

LMAO. Yeah. I've never formally discussed safe words with anyone I've ever played with. But if someone started shouting "Red" or "slow down motherfucker" I'd sure back off. The thing, though, is that the body writhes differently if the pain is within limits, or beyond limits. It's not that hard to see if you actually give a shit. No one's ever safeworded on me, but I have heard "Hit me harder, please."

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 7:48:10 AM

missturbation

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quote:

Recently I red two columns, both were covering the same theme from slightly different angels. The essential question being what are the ground rules of the game and why they should not be followed. Or should they be?

Game? For me my lifestyle choices are no game.

quote:

Back in time, when I was a Master and dominated random people I took great pride of newer allowing my subjects to have safewords.

I am one of those who has no safeword with Sir. However if i was playing with a RANDOM person i would certainly ensure i had one. Just my opinion but to pick someone up randomly and think that they will have the ability to read me well enough not to have a safe word, no way.

quote:

At the same time I was deeply involved in the “Scene” and I had a very good insight what can happen when stupid or selfish people use this option.

Would you include yourself in that category now you look back?

quote:

simply because most dominants are not capable, or interested, of reading their subjects. Subbies may not be intelligent enough to read their doms and understand how to give suttle instructions about her personal limits.

Hmm, big sweeping generalisation there.

quote:

Should we divide the players into two different categories: Those with enough empathy and courage to play “I trust you game” and to those who should play it “safe, sane & consensual”.

Players, games? Dividing into categories? Labels, labels, labels. Why not just live by your own rules? And who says those who say 'i trust you' cannot also be in the same category as safe, sane, consensual?

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 9:14:48 AM

HarryVanWinkle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Why do you feel the need to divide up anyone? Why do you care if others use safewords? If you don't enjoy playing with safewords, then find subs who don't need them and have fun. This does not make you better or worse than anyone else.

There are two types of people in this world. Those who like to divide people into two types and those who don't.

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 9:32:21 AM

fungasm

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You don't "allow" safewords because you think that giving someone the option of stopping the scene when it gets beyond their comfort zone turns it from real to play.

That is definitely your choice.

Realize the implications of what you are saying. You are removing the choice from your partner... there is no equality. There is you, decided what you will do with (and to) the person you are taking, and they get no say when it is too much, too painful, or they are experiencing a medical or emotional emergency. In other words, you don't care enough about their feelings to give them a voice. You see them as there to be used, and if this use causes permenant damage, than that is something they must accept.

This is between informed, consenting adults and you and your partner should have a right to engage in this if you both so choose. However, my thought, before you engage this way with a partner, is that you should be forced to have a session as a bottom with a top who shares your view- someone who doesn't allow safewords, and who will not stop when you say you have enough.

Alison

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