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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 10:19:37 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JaloHurmuri

Should we divide the players into two different categories: Those with enough empathy and courage to play “I trust you game” and to those who should play it “safe, sane & consensual”.


No. I think we should divide them into "Those who, for their own varying reasons, have a safeword" and "Those who, for their own varying reasons, don't" and make the difference about as important as hair color. Redheads may not be attractive to you but it's hardly a flaw.

From my point of view, any word or phrase that causes the scene to stop is a safeword. After 2 and half years, we've almost given up on the "picking a random word" style because neither of us can ever remember what it is - which probably shows how often either of us think about it.

However, he still requires that I have something because it is impossible for him to know what is going on in my mind and if a rape scene starts to trigger flashbacks or I feel pain that he doesn't want me to experience, I am required to inform him. And since we love primal play and rape scenes, "stop" and "no", simply don't work. Usually, I simply use his given name because it's easy to remember and breaks through the energy of the scene to let him there is something going on. We take care of it and go back to playing.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 4:33:23 PM   
scarlettjinx


Posts: 117
Joined: 3/14/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetNika

Shadow-tiger,
Some people enjoy breaking their toys and that is the scary part at least to me.


I find the idea of being "broken" mildly enjoyable and many times during play have asked Papa to break me. Apparently I am a tonka truck though because so far I am indestructable. I don't even really bruise... darn it.

_____________________________

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-MM

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 6:24:13 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		Interesting.....it never occurs to me to use safewords.
 
Then again, I am perceptive enough to pay attention-and just wise enough to check in during play. But I don't do fifteeen minute negotiations in clubs either. It takes a little longer than that to build enough trust in me to put hands on another body.

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/3/2008 6:33:31 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: scarlettjinx


I find the idea of being "broken" mildly enjoyable and many times during play have asked Papa to break me. Apparently I am a tonka truck though because so far I am indestructable. I don't even really bruise... darn it.


I don't break my toys -- just twist them to within an inch of their lives... then set them on fire... Oooo pretty blue flames....

Firestorm



_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/4/2008 12:01:07 PM   
JaloHurmuri


Posts: 2
Joined: 6/22/2008
Status: offline 		Good conversation. Thank you for all of you who took time to contribute.
 
Let me start by saying that I am a bit surprised how many people were offended by my opening speech. I must admit that it was a bit provocative, but my intension was not to mock anybody for his/hers lifestyle. Sorry for that :-)  

And yes, this was my first post to collarme.com message board. Thanks for those of you who made me feel welcome. For the others: your comments helped me to understand better both mysef and the world around me. Thanks for it:
 
But back to the topic and let’s consolidate what we have so far.
 
One of the comments alleged “there aren't any over arching rules that everyone follows” and “You always play Safe, Sane & Consensual.” Both in the same paragraph? Am I the only one who sees some contradiction here?
 
I claim that the community has a set of rules of conduct called SSC, RASC, or what-ever. Some people modify their behaviors according to these rules. Some don’t. Even in this singular discussion thread there has been very firm comments on both sides. Doesn’t this divide us into two categories? To those who play according to rules (SSC/RASC) and those who don’t.
 
Well. I guess that the real question is: why on earth anybody even dreams on not following the rules. Is not so that all reasonable submissives want to make sure that they are safe? Don’t all law-obedient and sane dominants want to ensure that they are not doing serious damage to the lovely creatures who gave them the authority?
 
If we exclude sickos from the equation (that is: the mentally disturbed individuals hitting pregnant women to the stomach with the belt) we are left with what I call “role-players” and “reality-seekers” Personally, I fall into latter category.
 
Role players want to experience the feelings, but in order to let loose they must have be sure that – in the end - they have the ultimate control. “Being spanked or abused is ok, as long as I can stop this if it goes beyond my limits”
 
Reality seekers experience this from opposite angle. In order to feel – anything- they must have an illusion not having a control at all / having a total control without any limits.
 
Do you belong to one of these categories or have I missed something?
 
-Jalo
 
PS.
 
- For those of you who live in long term relationship. I fully agree that that dynamics are different.  Once you learnd to know each another you learn to read each other better. Hence you can enjoy the luxury of true trust :)
 
- Categorizing behavior and grouping individuals into large clusters is a mandatory step while trying to understand the big picture. Being a subject of generalization is offending on personal level. Sorry.

 -We haven’t really dug into the question of trust. Beargonewild and some others had good points. It would be interesting to see a post about this topic.
 

< Message edited by JaloHurmuri -- 7/4/2008 12:04:36 PM >

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/4/2008 12:27:35 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

One of the comments alleged “there aren't any over arching rules that everyone follows” and “You always play Safe, Sane & Consensual.” Both in the same paragraph? Am I the only one who sees some contradiction here?


Apparently.  You specifically asked about 'the rules'.  There is no such thing. 
There are actions such as forcing someone non-consensually, which fall outside of the accepted definition for 'play'.  Rape isn't play...murder isn't play...pedo... well, you get the idea.

Creating a false dichotomy ('everything' goes vs. accepting 'the rules') is sophistry 101, and has been done to death.

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/4/2008 12:32:20 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JaloHurmuri


  
 
If we exclude sickos from the equation (that is: the mentally disturbed individuals hitting pregnant women to the stomach with the belt) we are left with what I call “role-players” and “reality-seekers” Personally, I fall into latter category.
 
Role players want to experience the feelings, but in order to let loose they must have be sure that – in the end - they have the ultimate control. “Being spanked or abused is ok, as long as I can stop this if it goes beyond my limits”
 
Reality seekers experience this from opposite angle. In order to feel – anything- they must have an illusion not having a control at all / having a total control without any limits.
 
Do you belong to one of these categories or have I missed something?
 
-Jalo
 
PS.
 
- For those of you who live in long term relationship. I fully agree that that dynamics are different.  Once you learnd to know each another you learn to read each other better. Hence you can enjoy the luxury of true trust :)
 
- Categorizing behavior and grouping individuals into large clusters is a mandatory step while trying to understand the big picture. Being a subject of generalization is offending on personal level. Sorry.

 -We haven’t really dug into the question of trust. Beargonewild and some others had good points. It would be interesting to see a post about this topic.
 


Just to make sure I understand what your saying....If someone uses a safe word, then they are role playing, if they don't then they are real.

Yea, I would have to say you have missed something.

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/4/2008 12:38:38 PM   
fluffyswitch


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Joined: 9/29/2007
From: Buffalo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JaloHurmuri
 
Role players want to experience the feelings, but in order to let loose they must have be sure that – in the end - they have the ultimate control. “Being spanked or abused is ok, as long as I can stop this if it goes beyond my limits”
 
Reality seekers experience this from opposite angle. In order to feel – anything- they must have an illusion not having a control at all / having a total control without any limits.
 

 


really? and here i thought i had finally reached twue status.

this is not an either/or situation, and yes generalizations are fine for working with abstracts but what you are asking is essentially a micro level question, not a macro.

i let loose just fine but i also have issues with my joints. i would prefer not have to see a doctor and explain what happened in the worst case scenerio. no one else is going to know my body but myself so i have a safe word.

does that make me a role player? apparently.

the better question is- why does it matter?


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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/4/2008 1:52:21 PM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		rofl... Let's see... Do I follow SSC or Rack?... hmm... ok. I know. I follow BlkDominus' Rules.

Do I have a safeword? Well... I guess I don't. I was trying to see what I might say in times of trouble, and aside from "NO"... I don't think I have anything else in my little bag of tricks set aside for those difficult times. Mostly what I have is a change in the tone of my voice. Luckily, he's one of those intelligent dominants/Masters who seems to pay attention to what is going on with me when he's sessioning me. All it takes is a change of tone mostly and I can communicate that something is wrong.

That doesn't mean I can determine when it's time to stop. That is SOLELY up to him. But he will pause a moment and adjust what might need adjusting - whether that's a hair that's found its way into my mouth or an appendage that's gone numb.

Beyond that, when I've played with him, I've never had a safeword - and yes I played with him the first time we went out - and I played even then without a safeword.

On the other hand, it took him over a year of gently increasing the intensity and watching my reactions in order to get me to the point where he can let himself just go - cause by then, he knew my body and how I reacted when things were right AND when things were wrong. Most of all though, he knows that he can trust in my reactions.

Notice I said HE can trust ME?

That, to me, is just as important as my ability to trust him.

And even THEN, my view is that if something goes wrong, then it wasn't his *fault.* It was just something that happens and WE will deal with it and move on. And if I get hurt, then if I want to blame someone, I'll just step in front of a mirror and let it go, cause the person that's ultimately responsible for me will be staring at me from that mirror. Afterall, I knew the dangers. I chose to put myself in that position. I undertake the responsibility for making those decisions.

How he, who is ultimately responsible for himself and me, who is ultimately responsible for MY self interact in and out of the times we're sessioning is the stuff dreams are made of.

And that's perfect for me.

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 7/4/2008 1:56:06 PM >

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/5/2008 8:06:32 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I'm starting to think I'm reading this wrong.  Maybe it's early (it is) or I haven't had enough caffeine (I haven't).

Exactly how do people make this magical transition from the first negotiation to this all inclusive trust?  That's something that's years in the making, and I wouldn't want to cheapen it by expecting it from the onset.  I'm very confused in the thinking that anything in-between would be considered "role-playing".

I don't say things like this very often, but in this case, I'm going to make an exception.  I play on different levels with different people.  I expect more trust out of My collared submissive than I do with someone where I might be playing casually.  That's a given, but that was also established over time. It wasn't like that in the beginning.  I don't expect that from anyone in the beginning.  That's even considering that I have a decent reputation and My skills are pretty good.  I read people very well, especially those I've bonded with.  I've received more compliments on My style of play than I could begin to tell you about, and when I scene, I usually draw the attention of most of the people around Me.

All that being said, I *still* wouldn't want anyone to even dream of playing with Me without a safeword.  I might be good, but I'm not that good.  I haven't reached knowing anyone to the level that I might never have a question.  Not even clip.  I know there are some people on these boards, and some I know in meatlife, who have that, and it's wonderful, but I want to earn it, just like they did.  I sure as hell wouldn't expect it without putting in all it takes to get there.

If that puts Me into the new little category of role player, or weekend warrior, poser, or anything else you can come up with, please feel free.


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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/5/2008 8:44:05 AM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		Applauds LadyPact! Spot on, such trust doesn't develop overnight, it takes time. And while it is developing, why not use every means at Our disposal to play appropriately and foster that trust? For Me, the main difficulty with the safeword debate is in how they are used. If you only have one word which means STOP IMMEDIATELY then yes, I can see that it removes some measure of control from the Dominant. I would still support using that for the occasion of some medical emergency or onset of unforseen emotional crisis, and I don't think any less of the Dominant or the sub if that word is called for those reasons. If however, you have words that are indicators of the progress of the s-type ... orange/yellow/amber (depending on where you live!) in the traffic light system being typical ... it indicates instead a current boundary and leaves the decision up to the Dominant as to how they will act on that information. The Dominant is still in full control but armed with a piece of information that they may or may not have been able to deduce from the sub's bodily responses. For Me, that's a win-win! In impact play, I tell subs I will play to hear orange from them ... so this tends to get past the pseudo-macho thing that boys often have. They know I will intensify the stimulus until I hear a heartfelt response. With a new sub, when I hear orange, I will ask what makes it orange ... is it the sting, the thud, the frequency, the same place or the lack of soothing caresses? Often I have been able to take that information, back off a little, then slowly re-intensify again and take the sub PAST the point at which they previously called orange. I usually stop at that point and draw their attention to that, with much encouragement and praise. Inevitably they glow with pride that they could push past their fear which is the usual root cause of the boundary. Everyone wins, and trust is built not destroyed. Next time it's usually possible to go a bit further, a bit deeper.

With Master, i still potentially have safewords if i ever felt the need to use them. And i have occasionally for that unforseen bodily reaction ... like the time i felt faint in what is perfectly reasonable bondage that i have been fine with many times. That time He got a bit cross with me as i left it a bit late to tell Him! He wants to know such things straight away (i didn't want the play to stop and kept wriggling my toes subtlely hoping to improve circulation enough to stop the faint!). However, i know His reading of my bodily reactions is pretty spot on so i have a lot more trust in His judgement and so would be less likely to feel the need to use the safeword for regular play activities. If anything i'm more likely to say "GREEN Master, i can take more!" But then, it's still up to Him whether to grant that wish or not.

I definitely don't see us as role-players ... we live this 24/7, based very much in service within the bounds of life in the real world. Both of us have done Our share of more casual play with others ... and we agree that communication, however it's achieved ... and trust ... go together to create wondrous experiences and special relationships.

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

PS I second the poster who suggested that a Dominant who despises safewords should have to bottom to someone who feels likewise! Feel the fear before you judge it harshly!

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/6/2008 11:27:14 AM   
subella242


Posts: 1
Joined: 9/7/2005
Status: offline 		i don't think bdsm is a game, although it can be very fun.

safe words might be considered necessary by those who engage in play with Doms who do not really know the sub very well at all. W/we aren't all the same when it comes to our interest in bdsm. some aspects of bdsm fascinate me and some practices i love, but in the end, it's my Dom that i listen to. i wouldn't tell Him what to do or when to stop and this has worked for me.

my safe word is still just a secret and i doubt i'll ever want to use it. :)

as long as E/everyone is honest and respectful...i'm ok.


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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/6/2008 2:06:49 PM   
mettadas


Posts: 30
Joined: 7/2/2008
From: Ottawa, ON
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Just to make sure I understand what your saying....If someone uses a safe word, then they are role playing, if they don't then they are real.

Yea, I would have to say you have missed something.

I'm not the person this was addressed to, but it summarizes well the point I'm now addressing.

I think it is fair to say that if you are not role playing, you don't NEED a safeword.  The last time I started a new relationship (about a dozen years ago) My domme and I chose a safeword.  I don't remember what it is, because I've never said it.  If my hands are going numb I say "My hands are going numb."  If I need to stop I say "I need to stop".  If I say "Fuck off!" I mean it and she needs to stop and check what's up (just an example, that's never happened.)

None of that works when you are role playing non-consent.  Some people want to be able to scream "No! Stop!" when they mean "OH GOD YES!"  In that kind of scene, it can be dangerous to play without a safeword, but unless you know you partner very well, and perhaps even then, it may be hard to tell when they really do wnat to stop.

Somehow this reason for safewords got lost years ago, and most people entering the scene are taught that everyone who is responsible uses a safeword.  A better lesson would be that responsilbe players will always make sure it is easy to reliably communicate that there is a problem.  In some scenarios, a safeword is a good solution.


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If he loves you, he'll take everything away.

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/6/2008 5:31:10 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mettadas
I'm not the person this was addressed to, but it summarizes well the point I'm now addressing.

I think it is fair to say that if you are not role playing, you don't NEED a safeword.  The last time I started a new relationship (about a dozen years ago) My domme and I chose a safeword.  I don't remember what it is, because I've never said it.  If my hands are going numb I say "My hands are going numb."  If I need to stop I say "I need to stop".  If I say "Fuck off!" I mean it and she needs to stop and check what's up (just an example, that's never happened.)

None of that works when you are role playing non-consent.  Some people want to be able to scream "No! Stop!" when they mean "OH GOD YES!"  In that kind of scene, it can be dangerous to play without a safeword, but unless you know you partner very well, and perhaps even then, it may be hard to tell when they really do wnat to stop.

Somehow this reason for safewords got lost years ago, and most people entering the scene are taught that everyone who is responsible uses a safeword.  A better lesson would be that responsilbe players will always make sure it is easy to reliably communicate that there is a problem.  In some scenarios, a safeword is a good solution.



Exactly! I don't roleplay non-consent with the people I scene with, either long-term or short-term. I expect that when I hear a "no", they -meant- 'no', and it's time to stop doing whatever I was doing. If I hear "stop", then I'm going to stop. Screw "green", "yellow" and "red"... the folks I'm working on are going to be at their primal base. There will often be blood, and it will be an extremely intense experience. I don't want them to have to -guess- at remembering a safeword. The first thing that is likely to come out of their mouth when they want to quit is STOP... loud and clear, and believe me, I'm listening for it.

If I played consent games, maybe I'd need a special word. If I was new, and wasn't sure if we were going to play consent games, or if it made me comfortable because it was unfamiliar territory, maybe I'd use a special word -- but for me, the basic "no" and "stop" work perfectly well. I learn to watch the people I scene with, to make sure that if they're zoned out, I've got a handle on what their body is doing so they can fly as high as they need to and know that their body is in good hands, but if they come flying back with a "stop", I don't move for a couple of breaths, until I can figure out what pulled them out of space.

I think the point isn't that people shouldn't have some way of determining whether it's ok to go ahead or whether it's time to stop and letting the person performing the action know. I think it's a matter of whether you need some special, secret word, or whether common sense and the usual flagged words of our culture will suit just as well.

Calla Firestorm



_____________________________

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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/6/2008 7:03:40 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

Screw "green", "yellow" and "red"... the folks I'm working on are going to be at their primal base.


There are people out there who have been so badly abused  that being unable to say the word 'No' or 'Stop' is part of their flashback to helplessness... which is about as 'primal' as it gets.

For some of them, that 'special, secret word' is their best defense against such occurences.

And if they trust me enough to give me the responsibility to make sure that safeword never fails them when they are in distress, I'll be damned if I'll pay the least bit of attention to the 'Twue Doms Don't Use Safewords' mantra.




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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/6/2008 7:29:34 PM   
cantilena


Posts: 224
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mettadas

--snipped--

None of that works when you are role playing non-consent.  Some people want to be able to scream "No! Stop!" when they mean "OH GOD YES!"  In that kind of scene, it can be dangerous to play without a safeword, but unless you know you partner very well, and perhaps even then, it may be hard to tell when they really do wnat to stop.

Somehow this reason for safewords got lost years ago, and most people entering the scene are taught that everyone who is responsible uses a safeword.  A better lesson would be that responsilbe players will always make sure it is easy to reliably communicate that there is a problem.  In some scenarios, a safeword is a good solution.


I completely agree with this.  We enjoy play that enables me to say no and not really mean no... so we use the color safewords.  It's so simple, really, for us anyway.

Sometimes I don't get all the fuss about this issue... to me, the bottom line question is about whether the people involved have mechanisms in place to ensure things stay within the boundaries established in that relationship.  For some, that's a safeword.  For others, it's explicit communication. Still others rely on trust and knowledge of the D... All of those things are mechanisms to prevent the proverbial doo doo from hitting the fan.

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/6/2008 9:48:00 PM   
Danner


Posts: 16
Joined: 10/30/2007
Status: offline 		We don't think of our lifestyle as a game and we only follow one rule- I am in charge and she is not. We have never used a safeword, We have casually talked about words that would work as a safeword. We both know if a word were to be used in a way that did not fit the scene, the other person would immediately recognize the disparity.  We are tuned to each other in many beautiful, unseen ways. That is a sweet, great place to be for us.  It is important to emphasize that everyone is different and there is no right or wrong way. 

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/7/2008 3:46:59 AM   
VioletAshes


Posts: 101
Joined: 1/16/2008
Status: offline 		My Husband and I choose not to employ a safe word. There is a great deal of trust between us and so far along our journey our needs to stop have been met with a look or instinct. I trust him to stop or release me when I tell him I need him to. His need to dominate me does not exceed his need for my safety and comfort.

_____________________________

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I'm not like other girls that you know
but I believe I'm worth coming home to"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/7/2008 8:07:39 AM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Should we divide the players into two different categories(?)


Jalo, welcome.
Being new to the site, you probably couldn't have known it, but trying to pigeonhole people in this lifestyle is almost guaranteed to get you a lot of very forward feedback. For better or worse, this community believes that people cannot be classified into any form of "groups". Heck, there are people who refuse to believe a lifestyle community even exists.

quote:

Those with enough empathy and courage to play “I trust you game” and to those who should play it “safe, sane & consensual”.


I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. People who are into the “I trust you game” can, and often are, into the SSC aspect as well. Vice versa people who believe in the latter don't necessarily ascribe to the former. The issue comes down to how every person defines "trust" and "SSC". Another trap to avoid, never try to define anything, you will never reach a consensus, even with a word is as easily defined in a dictionary as trust!

Lastly, you are in trouble whenever you call what we do "play". That gets up the ire of the twue M/s, D/s crowd. This is a lifestyle choice for them, often defining part of who they are. They are never playing at it.

Just some thoughts from someone who found all this out the hard way.

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RE: Should the rules of the game be followed? - 7/7/2008 11:54:07 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

Screw "green", "yellow" and "red"... the folks I'm working on are going to be at their primal base.


There are people out there who have been so badly abused  that being unable to say the word 'No' or 'Stop' is part of their flashback to helplessness... which is about as 'primal' as it gets.

For some of them, that 'special, secret word' is their best defense against such occurences.

And if they trust me enough to give me the responsibility to make sure that safeword never fails them when they are in distress, I'll be damned if I'll pay the least bit of attention to the 'Twue Doms Don't Use Safewords' mantra.


Nicely said.  The only time I've hurt someone badly enough that they felt anger towards me the next day was when I used too many different types of toys on a too-eager submissive for too long of a time at a too-intense level.  Should I have been paying more attention?  Definitely.  Would it have helped if she'd used her safeword?  Well, from our "discussion" the next day...when it came out that she was ready to use it about 45 minutes into our 90 minute scene...I'd say so.

If you don't want to play with me because I insist on safewords, especially when I am just learning about your body or if it has been awhile since I've played with you or awhile since I've played with anyone...because then I am not a "twue" mind-reading, all-knowing, all-sensing dominant OR (and I suspect this is often the case) you are being afraid of being seen as "not submissive and/or masochistic enough"...then go play elsewhere.  I am not desperate and I've never wanted to be considered akin to Elmer "the diminant" Fudd by being "twue".

(in reply to Alumbrado)
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