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RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/3/2008 7:00:50 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelDesires

Raw spleen is only palatable with lots of Heinz ketchup.


CD


Don't forget the mustard.

We'll eventually get to chainsaw massacres. These threads always go that route.

Just trying to save some time


Sometime these forums scare... but I like it.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/3/2008 7:16:19 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelDesires

Raw spleen is only palatable with lots of Heinz ketchup.


CD


Don't forget the mustard.

We'll eventually get to chainsaw massacres. These threads always go that route.

Just trying to save some time


Sometime these forums scare... but I like it.




Wonders where to sign up for this... giggles... oh and the buffalos and chainsaws

Playfully,
lovingpet

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/4/2008 12:02:01 PM   
ponyboyachilles


Posts: 27
Joined: 3/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

When collared as a slave, does this mean the slave has given up the right to have hard limits?  From the other side, when a slave has had ongoing hard limits, are they respected after taking this step?  This may seem like a no brainer, or perhaps is much more complex than it seems.  There has been recent discussion that a slave gives up all in service, and that Master/Mistress takes up the responsibility of breaking those limits to the slave's betterment.  I do not know what my opinion is on the matter, but wanted to evoke discussion.  I will be happy to elaborate on the dynamic as far as I know it, but will not discuss what limits are involved. 

Thanks in advance for all the responses!  Please keep it positive and keep it fun! 

Best Regards,
lovingpet


My opinion is that no, your hard limits as a submissive are just that:  Hard limits.  It is one thing for your Dom/me to discuss the potential of experimenting with edge play (which might be defined as play that "pushes" your limits) but once discussed, if they were hard limits when you first discussed them and remain hard limits in your mind, they are absolute.  My hard limits are clear; no scat or watersports, no fire play or burning of any kind (although I'm OK with candlewax play), no needles or knife play or anything that would leave permanent marks or be unhygeinic in any way.  Those are clear, and pretty limited, but they are absolute.  Mistress and I discussed them before we played for the first time, and She has never crossed them (She has joked a few times about the "knife play" limit during sessions when I was tied tightly and She had taken my lockback pocket knife out of my jeans pocket, but in the end has always respected my limits even regarding that).  If one of my hard limits were broken, that would amount to a breaking of my trust that I think would probably end the relationship permanently with whichever Domme chose to ignore my limits.  Again, they are few, but absolute.  Even being an Owned ponyboy as I am now, that will never change until and unless it is MY sole and exclusive decision to alter my hard limits list.

< Message edited by ponyboyachilles -- 7/4/2008 12:05:42 PM >

_____________________________

--
lifestyle ponyboy in training to the wondrous Mistress Nicolette

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/4/2008 12:41:34 PM   
cantilena


Posts: 224
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

When collared as a slave, does this mean the slave has given up the right to have hard limits?  From the other side, when a slave has had ongoing hard limits, are they respected after taking this step?  This may seem like a no brainer, or perhaps is much more complex than it seems.  There has been recent discussion that a slave gives up all in service, and that Master/Mistress takes up the responsibility of breaking those limits to the slave's betterment.  I do not know what my opinion is on the matter, but wanted to evoke discussion.  I will be happy to elaborate on the dynamic as far as I know it, but will not discuss what limits are involved. 

Thanks in advance for all the responses!  Please keep it positive and keep it fun! 

Best Regards,
lovingpet


I don't believe a slave intrinsically gives up the right to limits - I do believe this is one of those things that depends entirely upon the relationship and upon the viewpoints of the people involved.  I think it depends on how they define what 'limits' mean to them as a couple or as a group.  I also have come to believe that the answer is predicated on trust and on knowledge of the other(s).

Personally, I don't have expressed limits in my relationship.  That doesn't mean they don't exist, because they definitely do.  It's just that for us, my limits are far beyond his... It is also because he knows me very well and knows precisely how far is too far without us having to say a thing about it.

For me, the bottom line is... choose well.  When one chooses well, the whole issue becomes rather moot.

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/4/2008 12:54:39 PM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		It would seem the majority of people think of hard limits as specific activities.  my Master and i think of hard limits in terms of consequences.  We talked and discussed our views together (say it ain't so!!).  Our limits are:
Probable prison sentence.
Probable death.
Probable permanent disease or disfigurement.

An example:  Blow job?  No problem!  Blow job in the play area at McDonalds on a Saturday afternoon?  BIG problem!!

The individual activities, HE dictates and our shared views on limits dictates the context.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/4/2008 1:08:55 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		~ Fast Reply ~

This is a great thread - so many interesting posts!  I'll add my own 2 cents, for what they're worth...

I came to understand who my Master is a person, a man, a master, a member of the human race, before asking him to own me.  I met other dominants along the way, none of whom I trusted to the point of relinqueshing my own limits for his.  With my Master, I do.

The idea of giving up my own limits because I trust he'll never do those things doesn't necessarily apply with me.  He has done some of those things, and not because I wanted them.  What I did (and still do) trust, is that he would help me through the consequences.  I recall one particular situation when he asked how I thought I would handle "xyz."  I said I would do it, but I seriously believed I would need therapy as a result.  He chose not to do something with me that would cause me that kind of emotional consequence.  Had he chosen to do it anyway, I would have accepted the task of recovering from it, and would have trusted him to help me with that.

There are other consequences he keeps in mind, too.  Earlier this year he did something that caused me to emotionally pull away from him to the point of becoming unsure if I wanted to belong to him anymore.  That was a huge surprise reaction to both of us, and was immediately remedied.  But it could only be remedied when he stepped in to fix it.  I wouldn't say so much that it was a limit, but a limitation of my capabilities to endure. 

But I'm liking some of the thoughts I am reading in this thread, about the concept of not even using the vocabulary "limits."  What we have is life and our relationship in it, and consequences of certain difficulties that cross a line of what I am able to process.  Saying no to him isn't something I can easily foresee.



_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

(in reply to eyesopened)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/4/2008 1:40:40 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

When collared as a slave, does this mean the slave has given up the right to have hard limits?  From the other side, when a slave has had ongoing hard limits, are they respected after taking this step? 


it ALL depends on what the slave and the Master/Owner/Mistress have agreed upon.  there is no one-size-fits-all answer that acurrately represents reality for every slave/Master/Mistress/Owner.
 
in this slave's case...Master had/has many more limits on what He is willing to engage in than this slave did when we stumbled across each other.  this slave's limits were dying and jail time.  His were a bit more detailed, and this slave had to agree to adhere to HIS limits in order to be His.
 
since Master has no interest in dying or going to jail, He didn't have to agree to anything He didn't already have in place for His own self...and He isn't interested in breaking those for this slave's "own betterment", either---how would it be better for her if she was in jail or dead?
 
this slave doesn't limit Master as to what He can do with her body or mind, sexually or otherwise--they are His to do with as He pleases.
 
it is what works for us, A Master and slave couple, and definitely would not work for ALL Master and slave couples.

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/4/2008 3:16:32 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Questions like this always assume the hard limits are things that the bottom could do without harm. Mostly I find that's not the truth. My hard limits are things that would cause me mental or physical harm. IE deliberately causing panic attacks. If a slave is a diabetic, then starving them is a hard limit. There's no chance that them needing hospitalization would be to their betterment.

I've yet to hear anyone say "x is an activity my therapist thinks would  be great for me but I'm going to hard limit it and if my dom tries to make me do it to my betterment, I'm going to leave". That's just ridiculous.

Beyond this, only stupid and arrogant people think they know someone else's history and strength better than the person themselves do. If someone says that rape play causes them to need a short stay in a psych hospital you would have to pretty damn idiotic to assume that you know better and that it would be good for them, despite their history, to be forced to undergo it again.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to hisannabelle)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/4/2008 3:24:01 PM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

only stupid and arrogant people think they know someone else's history and strength better than the person themselves do.



I couldn't agree less with that statement.

Sir has consistently shown me that opinions I hold, or limitations I previously placed upon myself, were a nonsense. Sometimes it takes fresh eyes and a fresh persepctive to see what is actually there. The more we have shared our past experience, the more He has talked me throughmy views of it .. the more insight He has shown into my feelings and motivations

I am not so stupid and arrogant as to believe that my Owner and my relationship are unique .. other people will have Owners they can trust to know them as well .. if not better than themselves.




_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio





(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/4/2008 3:42:07 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

I am not so stupid and arrogant as to believe that my Owner and my relationship are unique .. other people will have Owners they can trust to know them as well .. if not better than themselves.


Well my Master is the first to say he is arrogant, but he is far from stupid.  I tend to think I am neither, although some have claimed to disagree with that, lol.

It's no secret I came to my  Master pretty deficient in the self-awareness department. The delving he did into my mind and my history was extensive, and it gave him an outside perspective as to what was going on in the inside.  To my amazement, he pointed out unhealthy patterns about myself that I had not seen, and that gave him some good indications of where I was and where I came from.

How many of us have friends or family who don't see the causes behind some of their own problems, yet we do?  How many see a strength in others that they can not see for themselves?  In my case, my Master saw these things, but at a more intimate level than my friends did.  And because of his education and profession, he was pretty damn confident in some of his assessments, and it's a good thing, too, because he was right.

I don't think it's very unique at all, if people are paying attention to each other.  While someone can not possibly know your history as you have experienced, they most certainly can understand the path it took you on better than you do.

_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

(in reply to softness)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/4/2008 4:19:38 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline
quote:

Hard limits are a reality, not a right. They exist regardless of the master's desire--and frequently regardless of the slave's desire as well.


Exactly.  I don't choose my limits.  In a very real sense, they choose me, or at least, define the core boundaries of my coherant self.  To fuck with those boundaries is to risk fucking with me in an irreparable way.  Chances are, I'm going to go into a 'fight or flight' response before that happens and if it keeps happening, I'll become so scared, I'll be afraid everytime I go near the guy.  Its happened once, and the relationship didn't survive.

Interestingly enough, its not my physical body that I've found to be the area riddled with limits and no-go areas.  Its my pysche.  I have relatively few limits when it comes to straight sm play and I consider most of those to be 'soft limits' in the context of a commited D/s relationship in the sense that I'd be willing to put effort in to working through them with the right person in the right context.

But, try to make a liar out of me, mess with people I care about, or try to turn me into someone incapable of protecting or respecting herself...I dunno...it doesn't work for me.


_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/4/2008 4:23:35 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		There have been many wonderful posts to this thread and I thank each one who contributed! 

I was very interested in reading about defining limits more in terms of consequences than actions.  There is a plethora of possible acts that can be performed, some that do not even cross one's mind to put on a limits list, and can be commonplace for another who will presume it is acceptable because "it wasn't on the list".  Additionally, as some have pointed out, the same action can have different consequences in different contexts. 

I can understand the idea of having no limits because the couple knows each other so well and with intimate detail.  I have not had the pleasure of finding such with someone, but wish upon a star it is possible, as some have found.  I have had partners that new me better than I knew myself, however.  That is a special thing in and of itself especially when that person does not allow you to get away with being less than they know you can be. 

Keep posting!  Thanks so much!

Regards,
lovingpet

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/4/2008 5:39:22 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

Hard limits are a reality, not a right. They exist regardless of the master's desire--and frequently regardless of the slave's desire as well.


Exactly.  I don't choose my limits.  In a very real sense, they choose me, or at least, define the core boundaries of my coherant self. 


I agree and disagree with this.  For many people there is a difference between what they think will harm them and what will actually harm them (harm could be either physical, emotional or mental).  I have not met very many people who have a firm grasp on what will actually cause them harm.  From the rest of your post it seems that you do have this knowledge, but there are many people who don't and I was no exception to that several years ago.

I remember when I first visited him and Alandra, I could not imagine being able to do some of the things that I quite happily do now.  My own growth has allowed me to move past the limitations that I put on myself by believing that the things are harmful.  If he was of the opinion, that anything I thought was harmful will not be explored then he would have denied us both some wonderful pleasures. 

I do think that many boundaries are set in stone and will not change.  I also think there are other that are only there because of our beliefs in them.  Change the belief and the boundaries shift.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to gypsygrl)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/4/2008 6:07:26 PM   
pinkwind


Posts: 367
Joined: 1/9/2005
Status: offline 		When collared as a slave i did not give up being a moral human being, nor did Andy, and what hard limits we had in life did not suddenly vaporise with the words "I collar thee". We discussed what limits we each had, agreed what would still be beyond the pale once we became Master and slave and have been happily living within their boundaries ever since.

Both Andy and i have limits, and those limits couldn't be breached no matter what type of relationship we had together, the M/s dynamic does not override that fact, merely gives us a timely opportunity to evaluate, change, delete or strengthen what limits we have between us so that our relationship can continue to move forward and evolve as our life together unfolds.

Neither of us wants to badly damage or kill the other one, nor involve younger members of our species or any members of any other species as part of our sexual lives, or for that matter do we want to literally dump on on another from a great height either. Anything else that has been left out of our kinky side either does nor float our boats or has so far not occurred to us to experiment with.

Personally i do not believe anyone can live without limits, cannot even consciously abdicate the subconscious adherence to personal limits into the hands of another, no matter how strong a bond exists between them.




(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/4/2008 7:30:32 PM   
pettingdragons


Posts: 421
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelDesires

Raw spleen is only palatable with lots of Heinz ketchup.
CD


yes!!! because any other ketcup is just gross!!!

_____________________________

pettingdragons
"may the moon bless you with her light.......so you dont pee on your feet"

(in reply to CruelDesires)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/4/2008 7:40:10 PM   
pettingdragons


Posts: 421
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

it ALL depends on what the slave and the Master/Owner/Mistress have agreed upon.  there is no one-size-fits-all answer that acurrately represents reality for every slave/Master/Mistress/Owner.

 
it is what works for us, A Master and slave couple, and definitely would not work for ALL Master and slave couples.


this slave agrees.....slave trusts her Master with her mind, body, emotional state etc..she knows that he will not HARM her in any way that would damage his property....it may hurt her body or her feelings but what good is owning property if its totally broken....this slaves limits are anything that would HARM her....(HARM itso= dismemberment, death, drowning etc....)

this topic is bound to bring up the old M/s TPE limits or no limits discussion.....there are several threads on this ........   like everything else its a matter of personal opinion and the dynamic of the individuals in the relationship...

_____________________________

pettingdragons
"may the moon bless you with her light.......so you dont pee on your feet"

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/4/2008 7:47:17 PM   
pettingdragons


Posts: 421
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet
Wonders where to sign up for this... giggles... oh and the buffalos and chainsaws
Playfully,
lovingpet


this slave feels that the buffalo is a hard limit (its a cross spiecies thing) but the chainsaw is a go as long as Master gets to weild it!!! 


_____________________________

pettingdragons
"may the moon bless you with her light.......so you dont pee on your feet"

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/4/2008 7:54:59 PM   
MasterDragon1963


Posts: 51
Joined: 10/2/2005
Status: offline 		Perhaps this perspective might help a tad. My slave is my property, diverse in that she encompasses many aspects, physical, mental, and emotional to name a few. Although I have complete control over my slave in all ways, to do anything that would alter her ability to perform her task and desire of her position and purpose would prove an unwise choice. But I would suspect that with many couples, their own unique relationship in regards to limits is just that, theirs.

As to Lily's topic on "pee". As for my slave, and many other slaves we encounter, anything that enters, leaves, or effects our property requires permission. Eating, drinking, smoking, toilet, shower, sitting, even entering Masters bed gets a pause and nod. But this apsect can go beyond controling ones property, beyond reminding a slave of her place. In some cases it can connect to medical concerns. A Master with a diabetic slave might be monitoring food intake and frequent uninations.

Master Dragon

_____________________________

It is not enough to walk thru the fire, but to embrace it, the flesh may be burned, but the pureness of the spirit shall endure forever.

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/4/2008 8:18:17 PM   
possessedone


Posts: 64
Joined: 8/28/2007
Status: offline 		When Master took me on as his slave, i did not have limits, and for 1 reason...i really did not understand the term.  i had fears, anxieties, misunderstandings, and a lack of trust.  Those things we dealt with through communication.  By communicating with Master, i have learned to trust him, and in that trust i have no need for "hard limits".  i know that above all else he will not break his toy,  and even though he will bend me, even though he will push me, he will never break me. 

(in reply to MasterDragon1963)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Hard Limits of the Owned Ones - 7/5/2008 3:27:27 AM   
snowslave


Posts: 30
Joined: 9/5/2007
Status: offline 		I made a similar post on another forum.  We all have hard limits.  There are things all of us won't do.  Those things differ from one person to the next.  I aspire to be a collared slave.  Still I have hard limits listed on my profile.  I think we should all(including slaves) post hard limits in our profiles.  Those hard limits can also tell the potential Mistress/Master if we will be a good fit for them.  They know what we will and won't do. 

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 60
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