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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 12:36:56 PM   
Alumbrado


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Are you saying that defense attorneys are zealous?

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 7/6/2008 12:37:15 PM >

(in reply to cjan)
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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 12:44:10 PM   
cjan


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Only the good ones. And even many of them are just gunslingers who care more about showing their ass in court regardless of the results it brings to the defendant.

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(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 12:45:42 PM   
DomAviator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

So you are basically saying they play favourites?


Oh they absolutely play favorites. I dont deny it or doubt it for a second. Like I said above Britt got driven to my house and dropped off while Pedro Gonzales was beaten to death for the same offense. (Actually hers was more serious as she was also under the legal drinking age!) She slept in my bed, he drowned in his own blood and died in a holding cell.

The point im trying to make is that this lawyers bullshit works well IN THEORY. Your rights protect you IN THEORY. But when you are face down on the pavement as the cops methodically drive eight of your ribs into your lungs, theory goes out the window...

Anyone who thinks they have rights should research that Pedro Gonzales case... It was open and shut. There was even a witness that called 911 to report the police were beating this little frail man (the guy was only 5'3) as it was happening. However, the officers were acquitted. One of them had previously beaten a highschool kid into a wheelchair...

Your rights end when the sun goes down and the billy clubs come out..

(in reply to Raechard)
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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 12:46:28 PM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
I dont think most people need to have such a sense of paranoia about cops. If you are somebody that they want to get for something, they will find a way to get you. The key is to make them not want to get you. I belong to something called "The 100 Club". It costs $100 a year to join, and you get a sticker to put in the back window of your vehicles. It supposedly does nothing for you except show your support of the police, but in practical application well thats another story. The cops know where their bread is buttered and they know that their pretty little air conditioned mobile command post was, per the foot high letters on the side, "Donated by the 100 Club" and their bulletproof vests came from the 100 Club and their kids college scholarship fund is from the 100 club etc...


So you are basically saying they play favourites?

I agree with you that refusing to talk to the police will make them wonder why you don't want to talk to them. I'd talk to them as a witness but if they caution me that's a whole other matter. They can't use anything you say to them, before they have read you your rights, against you. How do you know you have the right not to incriminate yourself until they tell you?


When I was in college and took a criminal justice course, the professor was a former police officer. And he even said that if the police ever read you the miranda rights...just shut up! No good can come from saying anything at that point. At that point, only demand an attorney since what you tell your attorney is protected. Even if you confess the crime to your attorney, that cannot be used against you. Tell the attorney the facts and let him deal with the police.

But even before it gets to that, you have to be careful. If you are a witness or a victim, only give specific facts to specific questions. Dont give any extra information. Dont try to force something out of memory that isnt there. And NEVER agree to a police search without a warrant, guilty or not. Letting the police in your house and having them search it will not clear you of any crime.

(in reply to Raechard)
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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 12:50:36 PM   
Raechard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
Oh they absolutely play favorites. I dont deny it or doubt it for a second. Like I said above Britt got driven to my house and dropped off while Pedro Gonzales was beaten to death for the same offense.


The police are really careful in the UK because of the IPCC
http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/index/complaints/forms/form_complaint.htm
I assume there must be something similar in the US.
 
Having said that you only have to look at what happened to Jean Charles de Menezes to work out the IPCC don't have much bite to them and ended up using health and safety laws to try for a prosecution.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 7/6/2008 1:08:03 PM >


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(in reply to DomAviator)
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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 1:04:19 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

I assume there must be something similar in the US.




There are similar avenues for complaints, but complaining about the deceptive tactics used in an investigation won't get too much in the way of results, unless they far exceed what was talked about in the OP videos.
According to the courts, the police are perfectly within their rights to engage in all sorts of deceptive behavior when dealing with those suspected of being deceptive.

That's why the old 'they have to tell you they are an undercover cop' myth, is exactly that.. a myth..

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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 1:08:15 PM   
Tantriqu


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Talking to cops is a good idea:  lying to them isn't.

Sadly there are sociopaths in every profession [priests come to mind], but most cops are great people who have to listen to NOTHING BUT LIES all day, every day.  Talk to them briefly, and straight, and answer their questions.  If you belong to the local poor community [black, white, brown, yellow, green], tell them something they can corroborate immediately because people who look exactly like you has likely shot at them.
Have some empathy.  Cops have seen and have to do stuff you and I never will [oh, yeah?  Pat down that hooker with the HIV+ syringe hidden in his/her wig].  You never know what they just had to do at their previous call [find the raped three-year old, or tell a kid their mom is dead].  Talk to every cop succinctly and truthfully, like they're cold, hungry, tired, angry, late for their kids' piano recitals or have to go to the bathroom, or more likely all of the above.  And by the way, they're great in bed :-)

Oh, hey, kids, here's the big one:  don't do anything illegal, and don't associate with people who do.
Whew!  Easy!
 

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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 1:10:34 PM   
Raechard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
According to the courts, the police are perfectly within their rights to engage in all sorts of deceptive behavior when dealing with those suspected of being deceptive.

That's why the old 'they have to tell you they are an undercover cop' myth, is exactly that.. a myth..


Yes the police can use any tactics they like short of beating people and other forms of physical violence DomAviator referred to.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 7/6/2008 1:12:24 PM >


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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 1:11:31 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

Talking to cops is a good idea:  lying to them isn't.

Sadly there are sociopaths in every profession [priests come to mind], but most cops are great people who have to listen to NOTHING BUT LIES all day, every day.  Talk to them briefly, and straight, and answer their questions.  If you belong to the local poor community [black, white, brown, yellow, green], tell them something they can corroborate immediately because people who look exactly like you has likely shot at them.
Have some empathy.  Cops have seen and have to do stuff you and I never will [oh, yeah?  Pat down that hooker with the HIV+ syringe hidden in his/her wig].  You never know what they just had to do at their previous call [find the raped three-year old, or tell a kid their mom is dead].  Talk to every cop succinctly and truthfully, like they're cold, hungry, tired, angry, late for their kids' piano recitals or have to go to the bathroom, or more likely all of the above.  And by the way, they're great in bed :-)

Oh, hey, kids, here's the big one:  don't do anything illegal, and don't associate with people who do.
Whew!  Easy! 



'Interesting' viewpoints, given the mountain of evidence refuting them.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 7/6/2008 1:12:18 PM >

(in reply to Tantriqu)
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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 1:11:50 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:


When I was in college and took a criminal justice course, the professor was a former police officer. And he even said that if the police ever read you the miranda rights...just shut up!


That is obsolete information.

Under 18 USC 1001, merely making a material misstatement, in any context is a federal crime.

quote:


Talking to cops is a good idea: lying to them isn't.


Ask Marion Jones and Martha Stewart.

Anyone who says *ANYTHING* to anyone without counsel is a fool.




< Message edited by farglebargle -- 7/6/2008 1:13:27 PM >


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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 1:32:02 PM   
Termyn8or


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Something seems to be wrong with the second link, might try it later.

But I know what I am doing when it comes to this, and I agree, the less said the better. My tactics are strong, and useful. But you can't develop them overnight. I HAVE talked myself out of getting arrested. I do agree however, that most people should not try it. You are against a trained professional and you are likely to lose.

Also another thing that was not mentioned is that you need a COMPETENT lawyer. Those letters after their name mean nothing.

For certain things, I would remain silent though. All depends on what is going on at the time. I have learned my technique by dealing with all types of people, professionals at every level. They, like Google tend to remember everything, and omit when it is convenient.

My dear old Dad said it "They are detectives, let them detect". Sound advice in my book. Mr. Duane is correct, for most people, but I have pushed the envelope and seen it not go bust. But then I am a nut.

Gonna try for that other video later, it sounds as if it is interesting. Oh, and I knew about the lobster thing and believe I have mentioned it before. That is the law, so if you import a short lobster, throw it in the meat grinder immediately. A criminal act, OK fine, destruction of evidence, but then how is it not a crime to put innocent people in jail ?

It is a fight, and it has very little to do with justice. I mentioned the lobster case over a year ago and got no real response about it, perhaps I was not believed. But it happened.

The guy had nothing to do with the harvesting or packing of the lobsters, and there was another law violated by the people who packed the lobsters. All he did was to buy them, and he went to jail, because the law is against possesion. And he possesed the illegal lobsters.

You may have also miseed one about a gun dealer. You know guns are not totally illegal in Mexico I hope. Well he fulfilled and order and shipped it to a customer in Mexico.

In this case, and I hope this scares the fuck out of you, he included an accesory that was illegal in Mexico, most likely a big clip that held more rounds than their laws allow.

And now the scary part. He was not tried here and sent to a federal prison, HE WAS SHIPPED TO MEXICO TO STAND TRIAL THERE AND WENT TO A MEXICAN PRISON. He may have never left the country before.

I am not sure, but I am sure he left the US once, and did not come back for a while.

And you people seem to need a video to believe these things. Someone with letters after their name. I don't remember shit that did not happen. I remember shit that did happen, and if it happened before the internet got so big you just dismiss it as the ravings of a madman.

Just wait until they come knocking on YOUR front door. I hate to say I told you so, but the fact is that I did.

These people are a bunch of MFs and they do not care about us at all.

And it is wholly and completely unconstitutional to subject US Citizens to the laws of any other country. This was supposedly why there was a revolution and we supposedly got the right to write our own laws. I guess those days are over.

The world has been repleat with examples of this, but unless you can get it on the internet you think it does not exist.

Like I said, wait until they knock at your door. And the lobster guy ? You think it's bad that he got jammed up over something he had absolutely no control over ? Think about this, if I were his lawyer it would have surely been a jury trial, there is no fucking way I would not put in a jury demand. That means a jury convicted him. So if you weren't scared then, perhaps that will help.

The government is full of rats, and they care about nothing but their paycheck and their conviction rates.

So all in all this topic is very good advice for most. If interrogated by the police, consider yourself a witness for the prosecution, because that is exactly what you are.

And any lawyer will tell you that when on the stand you simply answer questions, you do not volunteer any information, and a really good lawyer will tell you that if you intend to lie under oath, make sure it is something that CANNOT be proven false. It is up to you to be sure, because if you embarrass your lawyer that way, any good one will ask to be removed from the case. They can't just quit you know, whether you pay them or not. Wanna talk about having your ass in a sling ?

I learned half of this by age 17, when I got sued for $350,000. I am not new to this. But anyone who does not REALLY know what they are doing should just shut the fuck up.

I can tell a lawyer, yup I did it, but I want to litigate the case anyway because they don't have any solid evidence at all, I made sure of that. It is his job then to litigate the case to the best of his ability, and if you don't think that is moral, think of this. The prosecutor does not care if you are innocent, so the defense should not care if you are guilty. It is a game. A very serious game, but still a game nonetheless.

If you don't know how to play it, stay out of it. Anyone wants to know all the shit I have gotten away with, get me on the other side, it is way too much to post out here in public.

But in closing I will say this, the video was very informative for alot of people. And sometimes I didn't win, and a jail guard walks in to the day room and says "Of course I know half of you are innocent". He was joking of course, but seeing how the system works, I sometimes wonder just how true that statement was.

T

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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 2:01:57 PM   
thornhappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

Oh, hey, kids, here's the big one:  don't do anything illegal, and don't associate with people who do.
Whew!  Easy!

Seems to work for BrittneyLee (DA's friend).  She's even able to get her grass from the cops.

thornhappy

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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 2:40:51 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Talking to cops is a good idea: lying to them isn't.

Talking to anyone carrying a badge is a very very BAD idea.  Granted, lying to them is worse.

One has the right to remain silent.  When the cops come calling, exercise that right.


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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 2:42:24 PM   
DomAviator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

Oh, hey, kids, here's the big one:  don't do anything illegal, and don't associate with people who do.
Whew!  Easy!

Seems to work for BrittneyLee (DA's friend).  She's even able to get her grass from the cops.

thornhappy



...and in a small town in another county she also managed to get the shit kicked out of her after she got mouthy during a traffic stop for speeding. The key thing is to not piss them off. If you are good to them, they will treat you right and if you piss them off then its on. I cannot emphasize enough not to give cops a hard time. You will not come out on top no matter what you think your rights are. You cant rollerskate uphill, you cant piss into the wind, and you cant play the "I know my rights" game with cops and come out on top. What the video says is factually accurate, but will make it worse for you in a lot of jurisdictions.

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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 3:34:02 PM   
Tantriqu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle



quote:


Talking to cops is a good idea: lying to them isn't.


Anyone who says *ANYTHING* to anyone without counsel is a fool.



Meaning, if you're innocent.  Jones and Stewart are/were guilty, guilty, guilty.

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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 5:22:10 PM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle



quote:


Talking to cops is a good idea: lying to them isn't.


Anyone who says *ANYTHING* to anyone without counsel is a fool.



Meaning, if you're innocent.  Jones and Stewart are/were guilty, guilty, guilty.


The point was that if they didnt say anything, their sentences would have been much less.
Remember that Stewart was NOT convicted of insider trading....she was convicted with obstruction of justice.

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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 5:23:06 PM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
One has the right to remain silent.  When the cops come calling, exercise that right.

Yeah.  Right after they tell you that you have that right to remain silent they say: ANYTHING you say CAN & WILL be used AGAINST you.  They do NOT say anything you say will be used in court to decide the truth or used in the interest of justice.  They tell you flat-out how the game will be played and the deck will be stacked.  BELIEVE THEM!!!!
 
luci

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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 5:29:26 PM   
tsatske


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Ron White: 'I had the RIGHT to remain silent. I had, however, completely lost the CAPACITY'

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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 5:39:02 PM   
MasterKalif


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I don't talk to cops...I have nothing good to say to them...I mean what do I have to say to a force that never found my stolen things nor the criminals who broke into my apt. and stole everything of value...and then the same police force who calls me for "a donation" and tries to get smart with me that its "only 20 bucks"...I mean it took every inch of me not to swear to the bastard and send him to hell. In my experience cops do not act very professionally, are pompous and think people owe them which is bull. As for when you must talk to the cops, never trust them, they are not "your buddies".

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RE: Talking to the Cops NEVER a good idea - 7/6/2008 6:18:26 PM   
DomAviator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterKalif
As for when you must talk to the cops, never trust them, they are not "your buddies".


They are your buddies if you make them your buddies... If they ask for a $20 donation, give it to them. That "100 Club" sticker on my vehicles is the best $100 I ever spent! Parking tickets? Hmmmm Ive heard of such a thing but cant recall actually seeing one...  I understand you are supposed to completely stop at those red octagonal signs even if  nobody is coming? I also seem to recall something about it theoretically being bad to drive with the 20 year old sitting next to you drinking a bottle of Miller Lite? Something about an open container law and a drinking age?

Cops can be very good buddies if you play ball and do things their way. Give early, amply and often... Support their causes, whether it is the Police Athletic League baseball team or the 100 Club or whatever else. If they ask for a favor, do it. If you interact with them in an official capacity like on a fire dept or emergency squad and see them behaving badly remember Sgt Schultz from Hogan's Heros.. "I know noooooothing!"

Then someday when you get mailed a ticket from one of those pesty redlight cams, you will have someone to call to make it go away... Being in good with the cops can mean the difference between a ride home or a ride to County if you had a few too many.... They make great buddies.

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