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RE: The Conversation - 7/7/2008 6:11:24 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		TnC the advice you've received already has been so good that I hardly want to mention anything more.  The only reason that I'm piping up at all is because I do happen to have personal experience in the subject.  I thought it might help you a bit.

I think you might have read on these boards before when I've mentioned having to have "The Talk" with My husband some time back.  Yes, it is scary.  I'm not going to lie to you about that part.  I wasn't nearly as prepared as you are attempting to be.  (Kudos to you on that.)  I didn't set a particular date for it.  In My case, it just unfolded in a certain way.

Having been through this Myself, I want to emphasize what some of the good folks have said here.  Whether you chose to go through with it on your planned schedule or not, when this conversation happens, you need to remember one thing more than any other.  You must ACCEPT any answer that is given to you.    Whatever answer that might be.  I'm sure by now, you've imagined everything from your heart's desire, to total rejection on the subject.  Well, it can be either of those or anything in-between.  I know that is the hard part, and the part that drives the fear.  The only consolation that I can offer is that, it really is better on the other side.  Taking the uncertainty out of the equation can do a world of good.

The next virtue that I am going to advise you on, immediately after ACCEPTANCE, is PATIENCE.  You might not get every answer that you want from your wife right away.  It really is a lot to digest, even if you serve it up in small bites.  I would even go so far as to say that some of her reaction might be, "I don't know" and that's ok.  Remember, you've put at least eight months of this into the making.  She hasn't.  Don't expect her to know all of the answers.  Before you've made the leap and talked to her, she didn't even know the questions.

If you have questions where someone who has been through this has answers, please feel free to contact Me on the other side.  I've been there, and I know how difficult this is.

I wish you the best of luck, in all ways possible.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The Conversation - 7/7/2008 6:26:22 PM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		You people are so smart. I can't add a single thing.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: The Conversation - 7/7/2008 8:00:37 PM   
DominaSusan


Posts: 75
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline 		I applaud your commitment to your wife and the long journey you and she have undertaken this far. From your post it seems that your relationship has already improved quite a bit. I am in agreement with most posters and only add that you cannot make your wife a Domme. I sincerely hope that by slowly talking with her and introducing her to BDSM your wife will discover the true joy of D/s. However, I would strongly encourage you to let her know from the start that no matter what the outcome, you love her and will always do so. Having a safe place to explore and knowing that no matter what, she will not lose you will help-as it did me. In December my husband and I changed our (mostly) vanilla (with some D/s ‘play’) life for 24/7 serious D/s lifestyle. So far it’s been positive but some difficulties too. I find that connecting with a D/s community and having folks to talk to has helped quite a bit.   Good Luck I hope everything works out

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: The Conversation - 7/7/2008 8:28:31 PM   
SunNMoon


Posts: 1058
Joined: 3/18/2007
Status: offline 		I'll just add. Best of luck, and wishing you the best.

_____________________________

"We agreed to S&M only, sex and mockery." - Gray’s Anatomy.

(in reply to DominaSusan)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: The Conversation - 7/8/2008 5:21:35 AM   
TermsConditions


Posts: 446
Joined: 11/13/2007
Status: offline 		7/7/2008 6:00 pm.

Wow. CM is just fantastic. Lots of excellent advice from my favorite folks.  And some like LadyHibiscus, Pixel, and angelaJ have been offering up a Kleenex box to me for so long their arms surely must be tired by now! Thank you so much for your kind support these many months.

There is so much great stuff in here an adequate reply is impossible! 

Sylverdawn. Thanks for your reply. A kink friendly therapist? Hey! I have one of those! I didn’t have a session scheduled between now and D-Day so I was going to wing it. Based on your and ThurdersCry’s encouragement I whistled up a session yesterday afternoon, and was able to synthesize much of the advice from all of you to work into our conversation and my planning.  (Thunder if wifey calls the cops maybe I’ll get to wear handcuffs!)

RedMagic, LaMistressa, angleaJ and Dari, I completely agree that the focus has to be on her, her, her and my motivation must be my love for her and wanting to make things easier for her and not to burden her. I’m suggesting to her that we’re re-framing our existing relationship, only slightly really.  I’m adding to the relationship not telling dirty secrets. Butterflies, flowers and marsh mellow rainbows, for now J

DominantJenny. Hugs are always welcome! Special thanks J and thanks for your kind words of support.

DJ, About sex. For some perspective, here is where we started:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1572475/mpage_1/key_batteries/tm.htm#1577027

It’s taken us much of the 8 months to work up to talking about or having much. For conversation 1.0 I’m not even talking about kinky stuff, or even sex, unless she leads the conversation in that direction or asks questions. You advice is perfect for conversation 2.0 or when the conversation turns that way by her direction. That will be is another conversation most likely in another thread J

Undergroundsea, I went back and read the thread that I spelled out my challenge back in November. I could not appreciate your reply at the time but with the advantage of time and work your advice is / was awesome. Your advice today regarding language is fantastic also. Between what you and angelaJ have given me I hope I can avoid scaring her away.


Pixel, more fantastic, well-thought out advice (and OMG more reading?!?) and slavemike thanks for your supporting words.

Conversation 1.0 RC1

Rationale

“I love you. I’m proud of you and am very pleased with the progress we have made together. I’d like to discuss with you some things that might make our life together easier and reduce your burden.”

Key concepts

I want to make her life easier not place an additional burden on her
I do not want to scare her or make her feel inadequate.
No talking about kink.
Not talking about sex in initial conversations…unless she leads the conversation that way.
Ask her if she has questions of me

Form

I’m planning for a tiered conversation that can be abbreviated as necessary allowing for pauses in the dialog for her to ask questions and to lead to additional conversations as necessary. Present a portion of information. Listen, listen, listen. If I hear reassuring noises I proceed a little further and listen some more. If there is resistance I lay back and try to talk through. No pushing. It’s OK if our initial conversation is just to open the door a crack. More conversations can follow.

< Message edited by TermsConditions -- 7/8/2008 5:24:17 AM >

_____________________________

TnC
Married, Novice Subbish-Type Person
and rider of the Drama Llama.

(in reply to TermsConditions)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: The Conversation - 7/8/2008 5:52:31 AM   
MySweetSubmssive


Posts: 1139
Joined: 2/7/2006
From: Lehigh Valley, PA
Status: offline 		I'm amazed at how much thought, care and patience you have put into preparing for this conversation with your wife.  She's a lucky woman.  Best of luck and care to you.

Mss

_____________________________

"Oh, James, you're such a cunning linguist."

--Miss Moneypenny

(in reply to TermsConditions)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: The Conversation - 7/8/2008 5:59:09 AM   
TermsConditions


Posts: 446
Joined: 11/13/2007
Status: offline 		Damn. This is it exactly. (greatly abbreviated)

http://www.aroundherfinger.com/men.html

"I had been married ten years to a great woman. We had a great relationship despite the fact that I kept my submissive fantasies completely hidden. ...One day it occurred to me that I would never know if submitting to my wife would satisfy my inner craving unless I tried it.... I begin my doing all the household chores that she would ordinarily do. ... I wanted so bad to come clean about my real motives, but I was way too afraid to approach her. ... I tried to do literally everything.

"[S]he made an effort to step up things that she did for me. ...[A]nd I was the recipient of at least twice as much sex as I had become accustomed. In bed ... I tried to tell her that I wanted to focus on her pleasure, but she would always want to reciprocate. Our relationship improved ... and that in itself was some reward. However, I never felt as though my itch was being scratched."

[I] never really opened up to her [and] I gave up on the whole idea. ...Without the reward, without the sense that I was doing these things because she demanded them of me not merely because I wanted to do them, I couldn't keep it up. "

_____________________________

TnC
Married, Novice Subbish-Type Person
and rider of the Drama Llama.

(in reply to subtex)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The Conversation - 7/8/2008 6:06:04 AM   
TermsConditions


Posts: 446
Joined: 11/13/2007
Status: offline 		Too quick reply. Thank you again LadyPact for your kind words great advice and your empathy. It is scary.. I have a one week window beginning July 14 so I can be flexible. Obviously I'm anxious to get throught this.

It's confusing that I am choosing to actively pursue this. It seems very contrary to my nature. What if the thing that pleases her most is for me to put all my subby dreams away and never talk about them again? I can't even comprehend what that would be like.

Patience, patience, patience. Wow that's difficult.

_____________________________

TnC
Married, Novice Subbish-Type Person
and rider of the Drama Llama.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: The Conversation - 7/8/2008 6:20:54 AM   
DominantJenny


Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TermsConditions

DJ, About sex. For some perspective, here is where we started:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1572475/mpage_1/key_batteries/tm.htm#1577027

It’s taken us much of the 8 months to work up to talking about or having much. For conversation 1.0 I’m not even talking about kinky stuff, or even sex, unless she leads the conversation in that direction or asks questions. You advice is perfect for conversation 2.0 or when the conversation turns that way by her direction. That will be is another conversation most likely in another thread J


Ah, I see. *nod* I was starting from a very healthy vanilla relationship, so, yes, very different. I agree with everyone else then, with special emphasis on Sea's rewording.

(in reply to TermsConditions)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: The Conversation - 7/8/2008 8:51:20 AM   
wandersalone


Posts: 4666
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline 		You have received such fabulous ideas from people already and I cannot begin to say how impressed I am with your thoughtfulness and planning and committment to improving your relationship.

A couple of thoughts....

Ask if you and she can sit down and talk about how things have been going since the talk 8 months ago. Use "I" statements to let her know that you have noticed and appreciated her decreasing her outside committments and say something about how you have also enjoyed spending more time with her as a couple and as a family. 

Let her know how you have felt about doing things around the house and ask if there are other ways in which you can do more and that you enjoy having the chance to show your love for her and respect for the marriage by helping out as much as you can.

This may sound silly but maybe have a glass of water with you as we can often get dry-mouthed when nervous and also remember to breathe..... when nervous we tend to breathe shallowly and fast and this in turn can increase our nervousness and it becomes a messy cycle. 




_____________________________

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. Martin Luther King
Godmother of the subbie mafia
My all time favourite threads
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2002501
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=790885

(in reply to TermsConditions)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The Conversation - 7/8/2008 12:36:01 PM   
DragonLady5


Posts: 183
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Upstate NY
Status: offline 		TnC, there's not a thing I can add to all the great advice already given.

Just a BIG **hugs** to wish you good luck and I hope you find some measure of success.

_____________________________

--Lady D--

--Don't piss me off! I'm running out of places to hide the body parts--

(in reply to TermsConditions)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The Conversation - 7/8/2008 2:55:55 PM   
pixelslave


Posts: 1444
Joined: 8/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TermsConditions

Conversation 1.0 RC1

Rationale

“I love you. I’m proud of you and am very pleased with the progress we have made together. I’d like to discuss with you some things that might make our life together easier and reduce your burden.”


I suggest you also give specific examples of things she's done or allowed you to do for her that you appreciate and love about her which have contributed to the progress you've made.  Perhaps that might allow you to tell her what it was about them that you appreciated most, along with something of what need or previously unmet desire they have filled for you (keep it brief, so the focus is still on primarily on her and your appreciation of the relationship).  This is where you'll want to use non judgmental feeling terms regarding basic human emotional needs, such as the need to give & receive touch, be acknowledged, being allowed to give to another, receiving your partner's attention, your being heard, receiving or being allowed to give empathy, experiencing her love or your love for her, etc.  
 
Doing this will give her the opportunity to do the same as you begin your conversation with a focus on the positive things happening in your relationship.  I'd hope this would set the tone of your conversation to allow it to happen based on a mutual appreciation of each other, along with the changes the two of you have seen over the past months.
 
 
quote:


Key concepts

I want to make her life easier not place an additional burden on her
I do not want to scare her or make her feel inadequate.
No talking about kink.
Not talking about sex in initial conversations…unless she leads the conversation that way.
Ask her if she has questions of me


You might want to avoid asking her if she has questions of you.  Instead it may be preferable to allow her plenty of opportunities to ask them during pauses in the conversation should she wish to.  I say that because she may interpret your asking if she has any questions as an implication that she "should" have questions for you; which is something I think you want to avoid.  Since she's an adult and she's clearly free to choose to ask questions if she wants to.  While I don't know your wife, I'd hope your body language would convey to her that it's safe for her to ask questions and that you're open to answering them should she have any.  As you obviously know her better, you may want to go with your instincts, especially if you see that she may feel the desire but is showing hesitation.
 
 
 
quote:


Form

I’m planning for a tiered conversation that can be abbreviated as necessary allowing for pauses in the dialog for her to ask questions and to lead to additional conversations as necessary. Present a portion of information. Listen, listen, listen. If I hear reassuring noises I proceed a little further and listen some more. If there is resistance I lay back and try to talk through. No pushing. It’s OK if our initial conversation is just to open the door a crack. More conversations can follow.


This sounds like a good form to follow.  I wish you good luck with it!
 
 - pixel
 

 
Edited for clarity  

< Message edited by pixelslave -- 7/8/2008 3:06:44 PM >

_____________________________

Chivalry isn't dead! It's for those who have it in their hearts & are willing to be taught. It's a way of life, a code of honor; this one's armor still needs some polishing!

(in reply to TermsConditions)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The Conversation - 7/8/2008 3:07:18 PM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I would only add .. that you might try something along the lines.. of that it makes you feel good to know that you doing things to please her and help her. That pleasing her makes you feel wanted and needed in a special way that you find deeply fullfilling.  Good luck and the journey of a million steps starts with one giant leap of faith.

SD

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to pixelslave)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The Conversation - 7/11/2008 10:36:04 AM   
ElanSubdued


Posts: 1511
Status: offline 		Pixelslave and LadyPact,

I had been meaning to acknowledge your respective posts.  Sorry it took me a bit to get back to this thread.  I think you both gave excellent advice.

Elan.

(in reply to pixelslave)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The Conversation - 7/12/2008 9:56:59 PM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		LOTS of awesome advice here. sea's neutral language is inspired. But just about everyone had something inspirational to offer and I can see how much it has helped TnC to refine his original ideas into a much more appropriate first conversation. Only one thing I can add:

One thing that I have found helpful when talking to vanillas is to emphasise the values and attributes inherent in a relationship based on submission to a beloved Dominant. Things like trust, strength of character, courage, honesty, openness, vulnerability to name but a few. These are all good things in a relationship. Tell her how much you hope your relationship can continue to become deeper, more intimate. Steer well clear of the whips and chains for now. Try to think of one thing she could do (and which you think she WOULD do) which would make your heart sing "that's my Domme!" Maybe it's something as simple as giving you a list of tasks for the day. Or maybe you think she would be amenable to your calling her Ma'am, even if it's only "yes Ma'am!" when she asks you to do something and not all the time! I think it would be good to have one pretty non-threatening idea up your sleeve. Otherwise, if she shows interest and asks what would float your boat ... you don't want to be floundering. Like the boy scouts say "Be prepared!"

Good luck and let us all know how it goes!
Maam Jay aka violet[A]

PS When I had "the talk" with My then hubby ... he ignored it the first time. Quite some time later he brought the subject up and we took a LONG walk with the dogs (had to carry them back to the car LOL!) when he fired nonstop questions at Me and I answered them. I gave him some reading and websites that I had carefully vetted before so I could trust the info he'd get from them. It took a few more weeks before he decided to act and begged to become My sub. Now it ultimately didn't work but at least We tried! Moral of this, don't expect overnight miracles and expect to reiterate and extend the conversation in the future!

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

(in reply to ElanSubdued)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The Conversation - 7/13/2008 1:28:23 AM   
SurrenderForMe


Posts: 229
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		I'd see if I could find an article in a mainstream magazine or paper that addresses bdsm or submission in a positive light.  Bring it out in front of her and act as if you are reading it.  Mention that the article seems interesting.  Show it to her and see what she says, does.  If you get a hugely negative response, consider staying a secret sub.  If you get a positive response, draw her out, see what pieces she likes.

There are some people who to all intents and purposes are top, bottom, domme, sub, but don't use or are not aware of the terminology.  It does not change what they do.  But I know people who have rejected others because they see the terms as bad.  I can have a relationship and never use bdsm terms.  I should say used to be able to.  I only hang out with kinky people so I don't meet mainstream people as much.

Good luck.

(in reply to TermsConditions)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: The Conversation - 7/13/2008 9:26:01 AM   
KneelingSilently


Posts: 38
Joined: 4/15/2008
Status: offline 		Not much to add, Terms, except congrats on saving your troubled marriage. Whatever happens tomorrow it seems you've made your relationship better and that's what's really important. I do so hope that your talk goes well.

_____________________________

It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so. - Mark Twain

(in reply to SurrenderForMe)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The Conversation - 7/13/2008 5:44:11 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TermsConditions

Too quick reply. Thank you again LadyPact for your kind words great advice and your empathy. It is scary.. I have a one week window beginning July 14 so I can be flexible. Obviously I'm anxious to get throught this.

It's confusing that I am choosing to actively pursue this. It seems very contrary to my nature. What if the thing that pleases her most is for me to put all my subby dreams away and never talk about them again? I can't even comprehend what that would be like.

Patience, patience, patience. Wow that's difficult.


You are very welcome, TnC.  I really do hope that it works out for you the way you want it to.  Like I said, if there's any other help I can give, let Me know.
quote:

ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued

Pixelslave and LadyPact,

I had been meaning to acknowledge your respective posts.  Sorry it took me a bit to get back to this thread.  I think you both gave excellent advice.

Elan.


Thank you, My dear elan.  I can only hope it will work out as good as "The Talk" did for Me.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to KneelingSilently)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The Conversation - 7/14/2008 6:56:28 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Hi, Terms, just wishing you luck for this week!  Remember, days follow each other, don't rush yourself, OR her.  Have fun!

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]



(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The Conversation - 7/14/2008 9:38:00 PM   
pixelslave


Posts: 1444
Joined: 8/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Hi, Terms, just wishing you luck for this week!  Remember, days follow each other, don't rush yourself, OR her.  Have fun!


Was having similar thoughts myself...
 
quote:


River is my inner child.


Every time I see that I can't help but think I just hope for your sake it isn't the Rouge River.
 
 - pixel




_____________________________

Chivalry isn't dead! It's for those who have it in their hearts & are willing to be taught. It's a way of life, a code of honor; this one's armor still needs some polishing!

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 40
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