RE: Causing offense. (Full Version)

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KCherry -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 7:43:38 AM)

I tend to steer clear of anything that might

A. Get me arrested

B. Mentally scar small children

^_^




tsatske -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 7:43:45 AM)

quote:

But what is appropriate? You have mentioned several illegal activities which obviously are offensive to most but what about other stuff?


I understand the delema here. Common sense is a code word for 'everything that i so deeply think that i believe everyone should agree with me.' Everyone's common sense does NOT tell them the same thing.
I think the law provides some guidence. Of course we all break the law all the time, (and not just kinksters, either), but, as some one said, when so, try to do it descretely.
Then venue provides some guidence. It is offensive to walk into mass wearing 6 inch heels, a bikini and a collar and leash. (Master's current fetish wear of choice for one of my sistersubs. but, then, he does not take her to church that way. And, yes, she does attend church with us when she is here with us for the weekend.)
If you do your best to balance the desire to offend no one with the desire to live yoour life in a way that is fulfulling for you, and you stay open to what others say about your decisions, meaning you think out other peoples comments or objections, rather voiced polightly or rudely (as natural as it is to ignore rude people - remeber, whatever someone comes up to you and says to you rudely, someone else is feeling that way, but not speaking. so, try to strip the rudeness and consider the core comment) - and, after thinking it through, you may or may not change your behavoir. the more times you encounter something, the more likely it perhaps become that you might change - it is a balance of 'how important is this to me' with 'what is it costing me and those i love (social stigma is a cost - as is the threat of getting arrested, ect) - balanced with 'how much offense do i cause to how many? And, who am i offending? i care at least some about everyone on the planet - but i care in varying degrees, and some matter to me more than others. where i am offending them matters, too. if you walk onto a nude beach and you are offended that i am nude, i care less then if i am in your house.
In the end, we each make those decisions for ourselves. And, then, we make decisions about other peoples decisions. When the values we are talking about are deeply different - are they so different that i don't want to be around this person? don't want to be their friend? will be their friend but not their close friend? would not play with them - fuck them - marry them - have their children? or just - would ask them not to do that around ME?




missturbation -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 7:44:30 AM)

quote:

Collars and leashes are pretty standard.  If we were talking the states, I would probably suggest it a bit more out the norm, but in the UK I see it all the time and have done it myself and still no one really bats an eye.

Apart from maybe the chavs, and they just find it funny.

Collars and leads are certainly not the norm anywhere i have lived or been in the UK.




RCdc -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 7:58:44 AM)

Or maybe they were just discreet about it?
Or maybe it is the people you know or interact with?
 
Goth, punk, hardcore metalheads, electronica all have collars and leash symbols.  I have even known people to carry handcuffs as a fashion accessory.  I really do think it is more people wanting to make these items special, than realising that they are just articles that mean nothing to everyday people- unless you 'make it' so.
 
I have even worn a small whimsical flogger and a paddle in the pub I worked on my belt. It was an understanding that any patron who 'played up' would have me 'dealing' with them.  No one was offended, no one ever pulled me up and no one ever reported me for disrespecting sensibilities.  And no, I didn't work in a chic or trendy public house, but probably (one of the) most notoriously 'sensible' one in the UK(if you know your pub lore).   It's not the item, it's the reaction you (generic)cause by the way you present it.
 
the.dark.




missturbation -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 8:13:04 AM)

quote:

Or maybe they were just discreet about it?

How is it possible to put a collar round someones neck and lead them by it discreetly?
 
quote:

Or maybe it is the people you know or interact with?

This is nothing to do with those i interact with. I am talking about people i see on the streets, random strangers.
 
quote:

Goth, punk, hardcore metalheads, electronica all have collars and leash symbols.

All?
Are you sure?
Many have collars yes i agree but not that i have seen are they on a leash being led around.
 
quote:

 have even known people to carry handcuffs as a fashion accessory. 

Yep my daughter has a skirt with a small pair on. Shes a goth.
 
quote:

No one was offended, no one ever pulled me up and no one ever reported me for disrespecting sensibilities. 

Just because noone said anything it doesnt mean noone was offended.
 
At the end of this day the collar and leash was used as an example and not meant to turn into such a big deal. Am i offended at the thought of someone being led around in my presence publically or privately by a leash? NO. If i had my duaghter with me would i be offended? NO because she is 15 now and knows about the lifestyle. Would i have been offended when she was smaller? Yes most definately. I would not have wanted my daughter to see and question it.
Would i be taken out on a leash in public nowadays? No. It would in my opinion carry too high a risk of offending people especially those with UM's.
 
 Edited to apologise my font has gone crazy




RCdc -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 8:34:07 AM)

quote:

How is it possible to put a collar round someones neck and lead them by it discreetly?


The same way any action is done when one is aware of others, yet wish to do their own thing.

quote:

This is nothing to do with those i interact with. I am talking about people i see on the streets, random strangers.

 
Interaction is people on the streets too, not just those you spend quality time with.

quote:

All?
Are you sure?
Many have collars yes i agree but not that i have seen are they on a leash being led around.


Just to clear up confusion, when I said 'all'  I meant 'all the fore mentioned' not 'all the people'.

quote:

Yep my daughter has a skirt with a small pair on. Shes a goth.

And who is she offending?  Someone, somewhere - but does that mean she should take them off?

quote:

Just because noone said anything it doesnt mean noone was offended.


Absolutely. But when people do not speak up, then they negate their feelings quite frankly - at least they do to me.
As I said before, if people are offended, and the law is not broken then tough.

quote:

At the end of this day the collar and leash was used as an example and not meant to turn into such a big deal. Am i offended at the thought of someone being led around in my presence publically or privately by a leash? NO. If i had my duaghter with me would i be offended? NO because she is 15 now and knows about the lifestyle. Would i have been offended when she was smaller? Yes most definately. I would not have wanted my daughter to see and question it.
Would i be taken out on a leash in public nowadays? No. It would in my opinion carry too high a risk of offending people especially those with UM's.

I know, and the collar and leash is only an example - but it is one that is prominant.  Age of peoples carries no concern for me. If people can't raise other people with good basic knowledge of peoples orientations I have no time for them other than to tell them how naive they are and their complete lack of humanity.  Those I teach are tolerant, understanding and knowledgable and have been from the start.  One actually cancelled out a playground beating of another much younger than himself because of his knowledge and persistance on informing all his peers their ignorance and he stood his ground and in the way.  His actions opened the door those in authority to write and hold meetings because he stood up for what he believed was right, without a blood bath and not one fist raised.
 
I absolutely believe this - that people need to be offended.  Because it highlights their hate and their intolerance and their immaturity.  Without highlighting the stupidity, you cannot ever bring about change nor acceptance.
 
the.dark.




tsatske -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 8:39:03 AM)

missturbation, i understand. i think what is being said is that, as dark said, much of it is in presentation.
at our most recent kink event, i was lead around on a leash by my collar, wore my cuffs, and sometimes chains. the hotel had given over an entire and seperate wing to the event. all kinksters stayed in the same, seperate wing where all claseses, vendors and events also were. my leash was taken off when we walked out of the wing to eat or enjoy other hotel amenities.
On Sunday afternoon, the hotel admin. sent word to the event mods that enough people had checked out that they were now opening the wing to other check ins - and they had just checked in a family with children. The leash came off. No longer approprate for hallways and elevators. still don't think it was the best decission on the part of the hotel - god forbid a two year old walk into the vendor room.
but i wear my collar all the time. it is a plain link chain collar. It has on two occasions been pointed out as a 'dog collar' (which it is) -once by the least subtle of my bio sisters, once by a child. I responded not at all, either time. i do not think the prescence of a chain around my neck is overtly offensive. no parent at work ( i work in child care) has ever commented.
at work and in the prescence of family, at church, ect. i wear my hair down, so my padlock is covered. i take care to make sure it is at the back of my neck at all times ( it has a tendency to want to work its way around to the front). but out and abuot shopping and running errands, i sometimes leave my hair up in a bun. some of my shurts ( even some - but not all - teeshirts) cover the lock, some don't. my work uniform did, so that was good.
the lock has on very rare occasion been comented on, and only by cops, interestingly enough. the last time i had to be in the courthouse in my hometown (where parking tickets get paid) i told the cop at the end of the line to the metal detector 'my choker will cause it to go off' (i always point this out going in, makes for smother transition) the cop at the other end said, 'It's your necklace' i said, 'i know. i told the other officer it would'. He stood there staring at me for a minute, till the officer operating the line next to him, and therefore standing behind me, told him, 'it's padlocked on' at that point 'my' officer growled at me and said, 'is there a reason for that?' i just gave him a calm, flat face and said, 'it's cultural'. he growled some more, passed a wand over me, and waved me in. I have to say, although i know he was offended, i do not believe that i am out of line to chose to wear my collar. it does not offend 'enough' to make up for what i get from it.
everyone offends someone. many perfectly lovely and devout muslem ladies, of both the mid Eastern sects and the American ones, offend people all the time just by wearing a burka. should they wear less clothes, and dishonor their own values, beliefs and culture, just in order to offend no one? we constantly have to measure - how much offense is given? and what od people really think - when we try to think like them, from their perspective, not our own?
i truly doubt that dark offended anyone. they probably did not see it as kinky - just as a joke about 'keeping order', in a funny. lighthearted way. now, if they had known the truth, some of them would suddenly have found it offensive!




RCdc -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 8:47:29 AM)

i truly doubt that dark offended anyone. they probably did not see it as kinky - just as a joke about 'keeping order', in a funny. lighthearted way. now, if they had known the truth, some of them would suddenly have found it offensive!

Most of the regular patrons knew I was into 'alternative'practises and that I could top.  It led to great conversations and excellent dialogue.  So they were well aware I was more than capable of follow-through.[;)]
We had a new years fancy dress event, in which I created one of the patrons into a female which was done in jest, but with serious teaching behind he scenes for those that came with to observe.  And he won the top prize.
People are willing to learn, if you teach by example.  But the example doesn't have to be overtly serious, doesn't have to be sexual and can be shown that it isn't all sex and dirty, sick perverted intent.
 
the.dark.




MadRabbit -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 8:53:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation 
My question is where do we draw the line in public? What is appropriate and inappropriate behaviour in public? With so many different kinds of people out there and so many things that can and do cause offence to others, how do we balance living true to our relationships and not offending others?


I image it comes down to the simple common sense of understanding social norms wherever you live and then from there, deciding how much attention your willing to call to yourself.

Personally, I have no need for radical social rebellion with outrageous expressions of my dominance and my girl's submission in public. I find ways to make it blend in.




MadRabbit -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 8:56:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark I

Goth, punk, hardcore metalheads, electronica all have collars and leash symbols.  I have even known people to carry handcuffs as a fashion accessory.  I really do think it is more people wanting to make these items special, than realising that they are just articles that mean nothing to everyday people- unless you 'make it' so.

 
The difference is the collar and leash is associated with that particular style of dress. Wearing a collar with Goth attire won't draw attention or looks like wearing a leather collar with an elegant dinner dress will.




Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:00:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Would i have been offended when she was smaller? Yes most definately. I would not have wanted my daughter to see and question it.



Most young children react to things based upon how their parents/guardians react to them. 

For instance, a toddler falls on their butt - they are a bit startled.  Next, they look to their parents - if their parents laugh and react as if nothing is wrong, the child will likely begin laughing too.  If the parent cries out "Oh NO!  Sweatheart are you ok? Poor baby!"  The child will likely begin to cry because that is the cue their parents gave them.

This same holds true with most anything.  If a parent doesnt react negatively to a leash and collar the child will likely think nothing of it, or perhaps ask, why does that person look like a dog?  If the parent teaches the child tolerance, the kid will most likely become tolerant too.  If the parent reacts poorly or in a negative manner, the kid will likely view it negatively.

So, while parents may not wish to have to explain things to their kids, it is part of being a parent.  Kids ask questions we don't want to answer all the time.  We can either keep them sheltered, or enlighten them.   I prefer teaching tolerance and enlightenment.




Prinsexx -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:04:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

 
My question is where do we draw the line in public? What is appropriate and inappropriate behaviour in public? With so many different kinds of people out there and so many things that can and do cause offence to others, how do we balance living true to our relationships and not offending others?
 
 


Thank goodness that for the most part the decision as to how i behave when in public places within a bdsm relationship would be decided by the Dominant.
There was a moment i remember though when i had just finished a scene withmy ex. We dressed hastily to go out for a meal together and my head was very much still in the scene. The restaurant door was already open when we walked throughso i simply stepped back and allowed him to go first. However there was a strong afternoon breeze and the door had to be closed. When we came to leave the restaurant i got up to open the door for him and i was just about to open the door and avert my eyes to let him outside first/ there was a kind of dillydallying few moments which seemed like an eternity (and may have been unobserved by anyone else) when we switched roles into vanilla roles and he was 'vanilla courteous' and opened the door for me.
(I know who goes through a door first is also a culture bound system and in many parts of Africa for example the one who is considered lower rank goes through the door first but the restaurant i am speaking about was in London UK).
I think however that acts approaching what would be deemed agrssive or even violent acts (ather than door opening/closing protocols) wwould attract a great deal more attention.






RCdc -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:07:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
The difference is the collar and leash is associated with that particular style of dress. Wearing a collar with Goth attire won't draw attention or looks like wearing a leather collar with an elegant dinner dress will.


Depends on the collar, and the dress.
But then, I blame it on Gok that I'm a fashion pedant.
(But honestly - have you never seen a goth in a black evening dress? I swear people are closeted .)
 
the.dark.




AquaticSub -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:17:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

My question is where do we draw the line in public? What is appropriate and inappropriate behaviour in public? With so many different kinds of people out there and so many things that can and do cause offence to others, how do we balance living true to our relationships and not offending others?
 


It's probably impossible to strike an actual balence. In the end, I can't define what is appropriate and inappropriate for others, just what I think is. There are things that I feel are inappropriate in a setting where children are around to see and because I feel very strongly about this, I ask those around me to respect those feelings. If they can't, I simply won't go anywhere with them where I can reasonably expect there to be children.

The slapping I would find inappropriate, being asked to go to the other side of the room I wouldn't. Leashes don't bother me so much though I may not consider it the wisest of decisions. Where I live, it would just be begging for attention.




NeedingMore220 -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:19:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Patrick2005
When several people are offended, then it probably is a problem.  I have accidentally offended people in public by asking Master for permission to sit (in a restaruant) and by asking permission to leave his presence to look at something (in a store).  In both cases, I didn't worry about it, because I felt the people who were offended were sanctimonious pricks.  On the other hand, once I accidentally offended someone by public nudity, and I felt bad about that. 


I think the majority of the population don't understand the dynamics in a D/s or M/s relationship, so when they see or hear a submissive requesting permission to sit or move, something they would do automatically without asking permission, they see it as a possible abusive relationship.  They may think the submissive is a downtrodden abused spouse, when in actually she/he is in a consentual D/s relationship.  This may cause some of the stares or reactions - not that it's BDSM related and they're offended, but rather, they believe that person to be in a bad situation and helpless. 

I wouldn't do anything in public which makes people think that my relationship is somehow different.  I don't need/want to draw attention to myself in that way by wearing a collar or anything of that sort.  (I don't see anything wrong with wearing the collar in public, it's just not for me.) 

And I suppose anything that may cause my kids to look at a couple and think 'sex' is offensive and in bad taste.  I'd have to explain tricky situations to my youngest, and wonder what my oldest is thinking when he sees people making out or whatever.  That goes for D/s, same sex couples, hetero couples - keep it private - I find it tasteless otherwise, beyond hand holding or simple kisses on the cheek. 

Someone brought up how gay couples have made the public more aware of their lives by being 'out there' with their gestures.  I do agree to a point - I see nothing offensive with 2 women or men holding hands or with their arms around one another.  If my 7yo asks questions, I can answer her straight and true - they care for one another.  I like to treat those questions straight-up. 

BUT when it comes to explaining a dog collar and leash ... that question takes us into the bedroom and explaining power relationships, etc.  That's too much for public, I think.  It's being 'out there' just for the sake of making a statement, which I find tacky and unnecessary.




Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:24:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedingMore220

BUT when it comes to explaining a dog collar and leash ... that question takes us into the bedroom and explaining power relationships, etc.  That's too much for public, I think.  It's being 'out there' just for the sake of making a statement, which I find tacky and unnecessary.



Why does it need to be explained in sexual terms or in power terms?  Why can't it just be explained as "I guess that person wants to pretend to be a puppy.  They are probably just having fun."




missturbation -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:30:09 AM)

quote:

Yep my daughter has a skirt with a small pair on. Shes a goth.


quote:

And who is she offending?  Someone, somewhere - but does that mean she should take them off?

 
For me personally there is a big difference between seeing a small pair of handcuffs on a skirt to seeing someone lead around by a leash. But like i say that is personally.
 
quote:

As I said before, if people are offended, and the law is not broken then tough.

 
I personally find that remark selfish and a show of disrespect for the feelings of others. Now knowing you as i do from the boards and cm mail i would not have thought you would show a lack of care for others feelings like this.
 
quote:

I absolutely believe this - that people need to be offended.  Because it highlights their hate and their intolerance and their immaturity.  Without highlighting the stupidity, you cannot ever bring about change nor acceptance.

Whilst i agree in part with what you are saying, people are not always offended because they are hating or intolerant or immature. Some people are ignorant of the lifestyle, know nothing about it. Now whilst i think its a good idea to get it out there and people learn and as you say tolerate it etc, i also think that possibly this is never going to happen to the degree we'd like. Why are people stupid because they don't know about the lifestyle and therefore are offended by things we don't blink an eyelid about?


 







missturbation -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:32:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedingMore220

BUT when it comes to explaining a dog collar and leash ... that question takes us into the bedroom and explaining power relationships, etc.  That's too much for public, I think.  It's being 'out there' just for the sake of making a statement, which I find tacky and unnecessary.



Why does it need to be explained in sexual terms or in power terms?  Why can't it just be explained as "I guess that person wants to pretend to be a puppy.  They are probably just having fun."


An excellent way of thinking about it and explaining it and certainly one i had not thought of. [:D]
One thats only going to work with UMs of a certain age though.
 




NeedingMore220 -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:32:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I absolutely believe this - that people need to be offended.  Because it highlights their hate and their intolerance and their immaturity.  Without highlighting the stupidity, you cannot ever bring about change nor acceptance.



I see your point, dark ... I do wonder, though - do you believe people need to be offended in all cases because it highlights their hate and intolerance?  I see it another way - I don't like to hear people cursing loudly in public, especially around kids, because it's crass and tacky and it offends me.  Am I, then, hating those who choose to use foul words?  Same goes for a couple swallowing each other's tongues in public.  Am I intolerant of others' "rights" to show affection because I believe PDA's should be mild, at best?  It certainly doesn't make me immature to wish people would keep their sex lives private. 

Who decides what intolerance is okay? 




NeedingMore220 -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:35:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedingMore220

BUT when it comes to explaining a dog collar and leash ... that question takes us into the bedroom and explaining power relationships, etc.  That's too much for public, I think.  It's being 'out there' just for the sake of making a statement, which I find tacky and unnecessary.



Why does it need to be explained in sexual terms or in power terms?  Why can't it just be explained as "I guess that person wants to pretend to be a puppy.  They are probably just having fun."


That might work with the 7yo.  The 13yo would question further.  And I find that when they have questions and ask it's important to answer them honestly - yet appropriately for their age.  Sure, I could go with 'some people like to express themselves in ways that you haven't seen before.'  But honestly, someone leading someone else down the street on a collar and leash is going to cause quite the sensation in our suburban town.  I can't even imagine it - and what would the point be, simply to cause a fuss, to make a point? 

The 15yo would probably go look it up on the net... and another kinkster would be born.  lol




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