RE: Causing offense.

RE: Causing offense. (Full Version)

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missturbation -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:37:10 AM)
I think it also needs to be said that the best way of gaining peoples tolerance etc of the lifestyle is not by just saying people will have to stop hating, being immature, offended and intolerant if i wear this leash in public and going ahead and doing it. The road to peoples understanding of this lifestyle will not be helped by shoving stuff in their faces.

Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:39:20 AM)
The 15 yo would probably think they were goth. If they asked further questions or decided to look it up online and became a kinkster...would that be a bad thing? Of course we don't want our teens having sex because at that age most of them do not see the big picture. We want them to wait until they are adults for various reasons. But most teens think of sex anyway (some even have it), if they decide kink is for them...good for them. I'd rather them ask me questions (my kid that is) and teach them about safe practices than for them to think it is too taboo to discuss and wind up injured because they didn't know the precautions.

RCdc -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:43:44 AM)
quote: I personally find that remark selfish and a show of disrespect for the feelings of others. Now knowing you as i do from the boards and cm mail i would not have thought you would show a lack of care for others feelings like this. Absolutely. I am selfish. I wouldn't be practising BDSM if I wasn't. I wouldn't be submissive if I wasn't. I am and have no responsibility for how others react. Is that disrespectful? No more disrespectful than others not allowing me to be who I am. I have responsibility on how I present myself, but that is as far as it goes. I cannot make people think a certain way. I can only give them myself and then the rest is up to them. If that makes me selfish, then sobeit. It is not about showing a lack of care, it is about assessing the situation and presenting yourself and your choices in a way that leaves the way open for communication exchange and for teaching by example to occur. I have asked permission for different things from Darcy in front of others. I have worn collar and leash. I have knelt, I have been fed mouth to mouth or by his own hand. None of these are sexual, but they could be percieved as sexual. But it is not my responsibility on how others see it, but I don;t have to make a big thing about it, like standing in the centre of somewhere and forcing the issue to make it into a bigger issue. Many people have posted on here that actions do not make the orientation - and that is entirely appropriate for this thread. You know I believe you totally rock but I cannot stop being selfish and it does make me what I am, but just because I am selfish does not mean I cannot be empathic to people around me - but not at the cost of destroying my own integrity and what I believe in. the.dark.

NeedingMore220 -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:44:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation The road to peoples understanding of this lifestyle will not be helped by shoving stuff in their faces. This brings up a thought for me. Do people believe that others really need to understand BDSM? Do you feel a great need to get it out there and accepted? I'm not 24/7, so that probably makes a lot of difference in that I'm not really concerned at all that people don't accept my choices. They're mine, and they're private, and will stay that way. Others, though ... those who live it more deeply than I - they may feel the need to be out in public shoving it in people's faces so that they feel more accepted. Perhaps like a gay person in the 1970's might have been in the closet because of his or her own personal life choices, but a couple might have walked bravely down the street holding hands. Neither is right or wrong, as long as it is what the person needs and wants. I guess I'm not of the opinion that everything needs to be 'outed'. If a person wishes it to be, more power to them, but there are going to be those who wish to be more quiet about their life choices. So you'll have those who wish to be on a collar and leash in public and those who would be horrified at that. It took a long time of gay couples 'shoving it in people's faces' for it to become 'normal' to seeing a gay couple together. I just don't know if BDSM will ever become 'normal'. Interesting topic!

Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:45:28 AM)
I disagree somewhat (not entirely). Gay people have been getting married, yes married not domestic unions, in California. People have seen that no major catastrophes have occured due to these marriages....and California still exists! Heaven forbid! This is outright in your face if you are one who believes that marriage is a religious entity or belongs only to heterosexuals. However, since God hasn't smited the Californians, then perhaps it isn't as terrible as they initially thought. Perhaps, they might learn to tolerate it, even if they never understand nor accept it. I'm not suggesting we go and parade around in churches. I'm simply suggesting that exposure does lead to tolerance.

missturbation -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:46:49 AM)
Whilst for us it is no bad thing to explain kink to a 15 year old it may be too much for some. Remember not everyone is aware or educated about the lifestyle and therefore through lack of knowledge may not be able to. I think part of the question here has to be should a parent who is themself unaware / only partially aware of what the lifestyle is about be put in a position of having to explain to their um what is going on? We are all to some degree kinksters here so its easy for us.

NeedingMore220 -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:47:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz The 15 yo would probably think they were goth. If they asked further questions or decided to look it up online and became a kinkster...would that be a bad thing? Of course we don't want our teens having sex because at that age most of them do not see the big picture. We want them to wait until they are adults for various reasons. But most teens think of sex anyway (some even have it), if they decide kink is for them...good for them. I'd rather them ask me questions (my kid that is) and teach them about safe practices than for them to think it is too taboo to discuss and wind up injured because they didn't know the precautions. Oh, no, there would be nothing wrong with the 15yo looking it up. I'm very open with him and would discuss any of this with him - he's of an age where it would be appropriate. I probably wouldn't go into my own choices, because, honestly, that's private. But we've had many sex discussions, and if he turns out to be into D/s I'd be happy to talk with him about it. But yes, I'd rather he hold off on sex until he's older so he can appreciate what it is he's doing. Too many kids I hear about having sex with multiple partners, and it's really disturbing.

MadRabbit -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:48:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit The difference is the collar and leash is associated with that particular style of dress. Wearing a collar with Goth attire won't draw attention or looks like wearing a leather collar with an elegant dinner dress will. Depends on the collar, and the dress. But then, I blame it on Gok that I'm a fashion pedant. (But honestly - have you never seen a goth in a black evening dress? I swear people are closeted .) the.dark. So much straw...so little time [:D]

NeedingMore220 -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:50:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation I think part of the question here has to be should a parent who is themself unaware / only partially aware of what the lifestyle is about be put in a position of having to explain to their um what is going on? We are all to some degree kinksters here so its easy for us. That's a really good point. I think of some of my very vanilla friends who don't even begin to understand me, and think of their reactions and them trying to explain it to their kids. Beyond saying 'those people are just weird' (which I can totally see them saying) I don't know what else they would come up with.

missturbation -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:53:12 AM)
quote: I have asked permission for different things from Darcy in front of others. I have worn collar and leash. I have knelt, I have been fed mouth to mouth or by his own hand. None of these are sexual, but they could be percieved as sexual. But it is not my responsibility on how others see it, but I don;t have to make a big thing about it, like standing in the centre of somewhere and forcing the issue to make it into a bigger issue. You do not state if these things were done in public in the view of joe public? If they were i find the collar and leash, kneeling (depending on circumstance) and feeding mouth to mouth offensive. Not particularly to me but to those around who would be offended by it. quote: I am and have no responsibility for how others react. Is that disrespectful? No more disrespectful than others not allowing me to be who I am. Where do you draw the line on this though? If being spanked is part of who you are, should you do that in public? Think this may be one time when we just have to agree to disagree [:D]

Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:54:25 AM)
Who put them in the position to have to explain it? Was it the person holding the leash? The person wearing the collar with leash attached? Or themselves for having the children? If they encounter such a situation and they are unprepared to answer the question, they need to find an answer that is satisfactory to them. Even if that means looking it up for themselves, or asking others. I'm not responsible for anyone's child but my own. Therefore, if someone chooses to have children they must take on the responsibility in raising them how they see fit. Pushing the blame onto others isn't the best solution in my opinion.

RCdc -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:56:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedingMore220 quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark I absolutely believe this - that people need to be offended. Because it highlights their hate and their intolerance and their immaturity. Without highlighting the stupidity, you cannot ever bring about change nor acceptance. I see your point, dark ... I do wonder, though - do you believe people need to be offended in all cases because it highlights their hate and intolerance? I see it another way - I don't like to hear people cursing loudly in public, especially around kids, because it's crass and tacky and it offends me. Am I, then, hating those who choose to use foul words? Same goes for a couple swallowing each other's tongues in public. Am I intolerant of others' "rights" to show affection because I believe PDA's should be mild, at best? It certainly doesn't make me immature to wish people would keep their sex lives private. Who decides what intolerance is okay? Do I advocate swearing? Well, as a foul mouthed eastender, I guess I do! Yes a swear and I swear a lot. In front of others? Yes, regardless of who they are, if it fits the moment for me. Maybe I just have high tolerance levels. Darcy would attest to that. But I don't believe that everyone has to have an impact on my life, and maybe that level of knowledge allows me to be comfortable because I really believe that nothing can touch me, unless I allow it to. Again it all comes down to be responsible for yourself. We as individuals decide which intolerance is ok, but not with more hate and fear. I will sound hippychic now, but with love. But it is a deep individual thing, not a group association. I have used this before and I will use it again and again. You cannot change the world, it only makes it worse. But you can smile more. the.dark.

missturbation -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:57:28 AM)
quote: I'm not suggesting we go and parade around in churches. I'm simply suggesting that exposure does lead to tolerance Not entirely sure that is true. There are still an awful lot of people intolerant to gays. I have heard people say that gays 'are just too in your face with it'. Sometimes sublety and explanation, talking etc is a fatr better way to get something accepted than pushing it in someones face.

IrishMist -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 9:59:11 AM)
Mist, you have the habit of bringing up subjects that are just so thought provoking that I should bash you…making me think…what’s wrong with you girl…dayum. I read this earlier this morning and decided to hold off on my initial response because well. I really wanted to think about what you had said and my reactions to it…not just surface, but those that I carry with me always. *On the surface, I would normally say that other’s opinions about me or my actions/non-actions matter very little to me. I do what I want to do and answer to no one. And that is generally true. If I want to go out in public wearing nothing but see through netting; then fuck it, that’s my perogative and to hell with whether or not someone else likes/agrees/dislikes/disagrees with it. I think, deep down, that I am more the kind of person who would do it SIMPLY TO SHOCK OTHERS* and if a fuss was raised over it, I would do it again just to drive home the fact that I can do whatever the fuck I want to do. BUT…underneath the surface, it really is a different matter. I am not saying that I care about others NOT being offended or that I care about what others think…rather…*I care about what I think.* I have been beaten in public; had my ass whipped, my face slapped, been pinched, been shoved on the ground, had a gun shoved to my head…all done within the relationship that I was in at that time, and all done in public…and by public I do not mean a dungeon or a play party. I mean in places like a shopping center, or a public fishing tank for example. None of it affected me; It was something that was part of my relationship…in that respect, it mattered very little what those who saw it thought about it, or whether or not it offended them. I WAS COMFORTABLE WITH WHAT WAS HAPPENING, and that was all that mattered. However…and this is extremely important to ME, never, in all my years with my late husband…did he ever do anything of this nature in front of youngsters. If he had…I would no longer have been comfortable within our relationship and neither would he have ( I want to say right now that our own youngins did not and do not fall into the same category as strange youngins we saw out and about in public ) I guess what I am trying to say is that as long as I am comfortable with what I am doing/wearing/saying etc; then I do not worry about whether or not I am offending someone. But, the minute I stop being comfortable…it changes the playing field.

missturbation -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 10:01:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz Who put them in the position to have to explain it? Was it the person holding the leash? The person wearing the collar with leash attached? Or themselves for having the children? If they encounter such a situation and they are unprepared to answer the question, they need to find an answer that is satisfactory to them. Even if that means looking it up for themselves, or asking others. I'm not responsible for anyone's child but my own. Therefore, if someone chooses to have children they must take on the responsibility in raising them how they see fit. Pushing the blame onto others isn't the best solution in my opinion. Oh come on. Yes they should take responsibility in raising their children but why should they have to worried about exposing their children in a public mall for example to behaviour they don't / can't / won't advocate? For those unaware of bdsm and its working, how the hell can they be prepared to answer questions on it? To them it probably is just two weird people doing something weird which they find innapropriate. Not everyone has the level of kink awareness you do.

RCdc -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 10:01:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation You do not state if these things were done in public in the view of joe public? If they were i find the collar and leash, kneeling (depending on circumstance) and feeding mouth to mouth offensive. Not particularly to me but to those around who would be offended by it. We have done it both in private and in public. I still maintain, it is not the action that is the issue but the way one presents it. quote: Where do you draw the line on this though? If being spanked is part of who you are, should you do that in public? I have been spanked in public. Not one flutter of an eyelid. I have seen the said occurance also. I do not associate it with being sexual, nor with being specifically BDSM. Its an action. None know the intent. quote: Think this may be one time when we just have to agree to disagree [:D] Probably.[:D] the.dark.

Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 10:01:43 AM)
That is why I didnt entirely disagree. I also believe discussion can do much more if people are open to hearing what is being said. However, there comes a time when one has to live their life and be who they are no matter if others deem it acceptable. A gay couple should not have to stop holding hands simply because they are walking past a church in fear of offending the people attending said church.

missturbation -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 10:03:49 AM)
quote: Do I advocate swearing? Well, as a foul mouthed eastender, I guess I do! Yes a swear and I swear a lot. In front of others? Yes, regardless of who they are, if it fits the moment for me. Maybe I just have high tolerance levels. Darcy would attest to that. But I don't believe that everyone has to have an impact on my life, and maybe that level of knowledge allows me to be comfortable because I really believe that nothing can touch me, unless I allow it to. Again it all comes down to be responsible for yourself. *How about being responsible for the consequences of your actions?* *Some UM hears you say 'fuck' in a mall and decides to start saying fuck at every opportunity.* *Hardly responsible in my opinion.*

missturbation -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 10:09:47 AM)
quote: A gay couple should not have to stop holding hands simply because they are walking past a church in fear of offending the people attending said church. I completely agree. It would certainly offend some people but in my opinion that kind of behaviour is appropriate. My real question in all this lot though was 'is there a line somewhere between what is appropriate and what is not? Is there a line between offensive and non - offensive? If so is it clear or is it muddy water? Is it really a question of if it is legal its ok?

Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 10:10:08 AM)
It isnt just about them being exposed to a person with a leash in a mall. Children are exposed to people abusing one another, children have friends who are being abused by their parents. Hopefully we teach our children to speak to a guidance counselor or ourselves if this is the case and try to get their friends some help. If the only answer the parent can think of is, they are just weird and I think they shouldn't do that in public, then quite honestly that answer is sufficient. They do not have to approve of my choice to walk someone with a leash attached. They will encounter things they don't wish to encounter if they choose to have children, and even things they don't wish to encounter for themselves. The only people who have the option of deciding what can or cannot be viewed by others are the lawmakers. If walking around with a leash led person becomes illegal, I wont do it. Until then, as I stated before, their options include, averting their eyes, expressing their opinion, or leaving the immediate area where I'm present.

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