RE: Causing offense. (Full Version)

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missturbation -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 10:44:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz

Sadly, in my opinion, many already do allow their kids to run amok and when someone suggests they monitor their child they blow it off as, oh, they aren't hurting anyone and mind your own business.

So, yes, we can agree to disagree.

 
I totally agree and think this kind of attitude is wrong too.
Respecting and having regard for others is a two way street.



Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 10:50:53 AM)

Agreed.  But, who determines what is respectful and what isn't?  That would lead to another debate similar to this one.

I believe informing a parent that their child is running into the street is being respectful, I'm concerned for their child's safety.  They however think I'm being disrespectful because somehow they managed to construe my comment to mean they are a bad parent. 

I cannot control what others do whether I agree with what they do or not.  I can only control myself.  Therefore, if they are unable to see that I was attempting to help, not criticize, that is their problem.  If they refuse to get their child out of the street, then I have the option of contacting social services and having them investigate.

The same goes with anything others find offensive.  They cannot control the actions of others, they can only control their actions.  If they are offended, they can remove themselves from an offensive situation, voice their concern, or ignore it altogether.  But, they do not have a right to expect me to change my behavior because they find it offensive.  They do have a right to contact authorities (including management in restaurants, etc)  if my offensive behavior is illegal or dangerous to others.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 10:54:54 AM)

I tend towards chaos, except in my own household, and there is a regular debate as to whether my social leanings are more anarchic or libertarian. Basically, I don't really care much about what the "norms" think of me -- I never have. Perhaps, since I've always tended to hang on the fringes, I lost my taste for conforming to social expectations that I really didn't believe in. That being said, there are a few times that I make it a point to "tone down" my dress and or behavior to suit others' perspectives on what is 'appropriate'. The first of those is for scene munches held in public, family venues. In this case, I don't really do it for the benefit of the 'norms' wandering around the restaurant -- I do it on behalf of my community... the other BDSM scene folk with whom I am meeting. You may think that this makes no sense, but it does. It is often very difficult to find a venue willing to set aside space for local BDSM scene groups, so that they can provide a non-threatening, public location where people can meet and talk without pressure. Because of this, and because I value the effort of those who arranged for the vanilla locations for newcomer's munches, I try not to shock the 'norms'. OTOH, I also don't hide my tats, or my piercings if I have ones that would normally be visible. I also may be creative with cosmetics.

The other occasion that I am respectful of the need to maintain some measure of discretion is at work. Most of the time, I don't have a big issue -- my supervisor and several others know about most all of my atypical leanings, and I'm not required to cover my tats at work, or my piercings... but I also work with patients. These people are suffering already, struggling with difficult and painful disease. When I am in clinic, I wear a lab coat that completely covers my body art. I wear 'norm' clothing that won't cause these people to become agitated. I am soft-spoken and gentle with "my" patients, because they are suffering, and I don't feel that it would help them to have a caregiver or pastoral provider who flaunts her anarchy in their faces. Many, nay -most- of these people are my dad's age, and they don't have the benefit of knowing me outside of the image I present at work -- so if I want them to retain their sense of safety and care in our institution, I have to make sure that I present myself 'gently'.

The last place that I tend to err on the side of caution is when I am out with my grown son or daughter's lovers' parents for the first, second, or occasionally even third time. These people will have an extended relationship with my children, and I am not interested in creating disharmony. I dress with discretion, don't cuss (though I can, when angry, have the mouth of a sailor), don't discuss my extreme recreational, religious, or political views, and give them a chance to get to know me as a person before I start introducing them to my chaotic tendencies. I don't withhold, so much as not rubbing it in their faces. These people have typically just been somewhat -forced- to deal with my bisexuality, because my current primary is a same-gender partner, and sometimes, when one of my male secondaries is in town, they usually meet them as well. Most of my clothing also doesn't completely hide one of my tattoos, so they get to deal with the fact that I'm into body art. I figure this is enough for the first couple of conversations. I'm not loud, I don't make crass jokes, and if one of my servants attends the meal with me (which they may if they've come so far as to be a secondary, though I don't have one of those in my life right now), only the most subtle inferences are used to guide hir, so that I don't rub what I am in these peoples' noses.

For me, it is a matter of self-respect. It is easy to manipulate public opinion in ways that will either make our lives (and the lives of those we care about) easier or more difficult. After a long, challenging life, I try to do what I can to help make life a little easier when something that matters to me is at stake -- otherwise, expect nothing but chaos.

Calla Firestorm



Mercnbeth -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 11:06:44 AM)

Take a look at these two statements pretty much addressing the same basic issue; perspective.
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
quote:

Yep my daughter has a skirt with a small pair on. Shes a goth.

quote:

And who is she offending?  Someone, somewhere - but does that mean she should take them off?
 
For me personally there is a big difference between seeing a small pair of handcuffs on a skirt to seeing someone lead around by a leash. But like i say that is personally.

 
quote:

quote:

As I said before, if people are offended, and the law is not broken then tough.
 I personally find that remark selfish and a show of disrespect for the feelings of others. Now knowing you as i do from the boards and cm mail i would not have thought you would show a lack of care for others feelings like this. 
It's a case of always being 'right' when the reference is in the first person. However, when the reference is 2nd or 3rd person, there should be a law against it!

Usually the foundation of the argument is one of two things; "think of the children" or "good intent". Both expose that fundamentally it comes down to personal feelings. Get enough who think their personal feelings override personal freedoms of others and you end up with laws. Sexist laws, like exposed male nipples - okay; female - arrest! Racist laws, all applicants are equal - except those who meet aa/eeo criteria are 'more equal'. 

It is a hard thing to be free and accepting of others. The hardest is when you don't agree, or don't even participate and still see the value in fighting for the concept of personal freedom and liberty. The clearest example, which also happens to provide the clearest argument against and consequence of allowing personal liberty is smoking. Here the personal liberty to smoke is impacted by required exhale of smoke. So there came to be a consequence to second hand smoke. Yet, with 100's of years of smoking not one medically recorded death has been reported.

Consequences? Well, 'good intent' 'what about the children?', has removed most playground games from elementary school and eliminated in many cases, the freedom to have a peanut butter sandwich at lunch time. Unfortunately there has been death and/or injury due to playground accidents. There have been emergency ward trips due to a bad food allergy. So we made laws to cover a probability small that even the most conservative insurance actuary tables don't consider it. More children die each year from drowning in swimming pools, oceans, streams, and lakes than the total of all deaths ever attributed from peanuts or taking a fatal hit in dodge ball. Where is the outcry to ban children from water? At the very least - shouldn't children's bathing suits come with a warning? "Wearing this suit in water may result in drowning!" I'm surprise some blood sucking leach (I mean lawyer) hasn't already filed a class action law suit on this issue.

Then again looking at the case of 'second hand smoke' we have laws in place for a problem that, to date, has never appeared on a death certificate or even an emergency ward trip. It is 'faith based' 'good intent' legislation meant to address 2nd and 3rd party representation of liberty and freedoms.

quote:

Collars and leads are certainly not the norm anywhere i have lived or been in the UK.
Well, the last time I was in London, I recall seeing many people walking around other people wearing harnesses and at the end of leashes. They happened to be 2-3 years old (those wearing the harnesses) but few gave them a second glance. Maybe it is just a matter of age-play? Same thing applied to the beach; topless seems to be okay and the norm for females up until a certain age. It can make for a cute picture; or it can be an example of pedophilia.

Being selective, or better yet selfish, about liberty insures one thing - eventually everyone will have none.



NeedingMore220 -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 11:09:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz

Sadly, in my opinion, many already do allow their kids to run amok and when someone suggests they monitor their child they blow it off as, oh, they aren't hurting anyone and mind your own business.

So, yes, we can agree to disagree.


Two wrongs don't make a right.  [;)]



Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 11:15:07 AM)

I agree.

However, what I determine to be right or wrong will not always be the same as someone else.



Missokyst -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 11:34:00 AM)

I once went to a large gathering in SF during Folsom.  We all met in a public, family style restaurant on the first night there.  There were about 80 of us there more or less.  There were also a lot of families around with kids of various ages.  Most of us were pretty normal.  But there were a few who came in in leashes and knelt beside their dominant instead of sitting on the seats.
There were a few families which were not pleased and some got up and left.  But it was a quiet protest on their behalf.
People on leashes, that might be common.  Kneeling women and men are less so in a public place.
I recognize that people have the right to BE, but for me I find displaying it in a public setting is tacky and in poor taste.  It isn't something I would do, but plenty would.  I just kind of furl my brow and look away.  A store manager once told me that for every tacky thing on the shelves there will be a buyer who will think its darling.  She was right in more ways than just retail.
People are going to evaluate us based on the improprieties they see.  Some people get off on shocking those values.
Kyst



liljoy -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 11:53:23 AM)

i know of a munch group that recently lost thier munch location because of folks wearing  collars. This after having met there for several years.
i don't know the whole story but i do know the wearing of collars was a big part of the reason they were told not to come back

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I have worn my collar in public, and never had a bad reaction.  Quite honestly, I don't see people offended by that currently - it is too much of a fashion statement these days for people to even take a second peek.
 
the.dark.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 11:56:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: liljoy
i know of a munch group that recently lost thier munch location because of folks wearing  collars. This after having met there for several years.
i don't know the whole story but i do know the wearing of collars was a big part of the reason they were told not to come back
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I have worn my collar in public, and never had a bad reaction.  Quite honestly, I don't see people offended by that currently - it is too much of a fashion statement these days for people to even take a second peek.
 
the.dark.


In this ecconomy I hope the manger/owner's pocketbook can support his personal morality and/or prejudice.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 12:06:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: liljoy

i know of a munch group that recently lost thier munch location because of folks wearing  collars. This after having met there for several years.
i don't know the whole story but i do know the wearing of collars was a big part of the reason they were told not to come back



Interesting... especially because the wearing of collars has become so commonplace among young people -- heck, that's one thing we -don't- have to worry about. The "goth" and "scene" kids have made the wearing of collars and corsets nearly 'mainstream' in an urban center as big as ours... the only thing that would set folks off here is a leash attached to the collar and in someone other than the collar-wearer's hand (if a person were holding their own leash, most folks would pretty much look the other way) or blatant fetish wear -- rubber, vinyl, leather catsuits or anything that exposed a lot of flesh -- I saw a girl escorted out of the place we hold our munches because of the micro-mini she was wearing "commando" (no, she wasn't in our group).

Calla Firestorm




CreativeDominant -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 12:15:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Sir once told me a story about how He had taken one of His sub's to a restaurant and part way through the meal slapped her round the face. He had forgotten briefly where He was etc an dhad just done what came naturally. Needless to say this caused offence to those around them in the restaurant.

 
In my opinion, tis understandable why it would cause offense.  Part of the reason they enacted assault laws in the first place was because this type of behavior...slapping someone across the face...was generally done in a non-consensual fashion and was usually the case of the bigger person intimidating and abusing the smaller person.  This offended the majority of the populace and was considered not the right way for the offender to handle situations in which he/she had become upset.  Most people, being unaware of the D/s dynamic in place in this situation, likely saw this as an occurrence of abuse.
 
quote:

Whilst out with a friend of mine and his sub for a drink one day, she said something out of turn and he sent her to sit on the other side of the pub for about five minutes. Possibly people picked up on this and possibly it caused offence to some people.
 
 
More subtle but still something that could be picked up on and for those with a certain attitude, it would be offensive...not because of physical abuse but the mental/emotional abuse aspect.
 
quote:

Neither of these would have or did cause any offence to me but i know they possibly would / did cause offence to joe public and others in the lifestyle.
 
Yesterday i was having a conversation with a friend and something he does / is doing in public really offended me. It doesn't really matter what it was and it would be unfair to him to place it 'out' here so i won't. I will also add that what he is doing is in no way wrong / illegal, just wrong in my opinion.
 
Being friends we were both honest about our sides of the coin, but couldn't really come to any agreement or compromise on the issue. He didn't really appear to understand the objections i had and his only response was it was ok because he always tried not to offend people.
 
My question is where do we draw the line in public? What is appropriate and inappropriate behaviour in public? With so many different kinds of people out there and so many things that can and do cause offence to others, how do we balance living true to our relationships and not offending others?  


I heard a saying once that I try to follow..."My rights to express myself end just before the tip of your nose".  In other words, I may want to do something and call it "freedom to live my life as I see fit" and, in private, I have that right.  But when I am out in public, society's rules...not mine, not yours...are what guide me.  My rights exist up to the point of society's "nose".  Anyone with common sense knows what the laws are and I just don't subscribe to the theory that it is "too difficult" to mind ones' self...and these rules...in public.  Perhaps it is because I am a doctor but I know for a fact that everything I do, at least in my town where people know me, is scrutinized much more closely than the average Joe.  Being aware of that, my behavior in public is more decorous than many and you know what?  It isn't that hard to remember my "manners". 
Turn it around...would you really like to be out to dinner or in a bar or in a movie theater and have some couple start arguing---loudly?  I know I would not.  Why on earth would I figure that someone else would want to see the darker side of MY dynamic?



coupleowl -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 12:35:47 PM)

I believe in public a subtle way is much more appropriate. I agree with the sending to the other side of the room for 5-10 mins, but not in a yelling matter. Maybe a whisper in her ear or a pinch of the wrist or hand. Something that most people would not take notice to. Or hell, just tell her that once you get home she will be punished.  My daddy uses more phycological aproach with me because I am more insecure with myself & if he is dissapointed or mad it kills me inside. Best of all, I still get punished but no one will know or be able to take offence to our lifestyle. Wearing your collar in public is absolutly appropriate in my oppinion. Most people that don't know the lifestyle will take as no more than a fashion choice, but to you it's a sign that he does in fact own you.



coupleowl -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 12:44:50 PM)

I have even worn my thick red collar to school in my senior year & none of the teachers had a problem with it at all.



RCdc -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 2:32:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz

She wouldn't be forcing them to swear.  She would be exposing them to something they might not like.  They have the option to remain their and ignore it, or leave, or tell her that they think her foul words are rude.  She has the option to tell them F You.

I never said Dark would be forcing them to swear.
Why should they have to leave because Dark has no respect for other people and cannot show good manners?
Why shouldnt Dark leave?


Define respect - that is where the difficulty arises.  What you find rude and disgusting and socially acceptable is completely different to another - individual, race, tribe, country, religion.
If there are no specific rules of conduct in an establishment, then I am open to do what I wish, where I wish.  I have no responsibility over anothers offspring, peers, or grandmother.  I have responsibility to myself and mine.  That is where it ends.  I'm not into the whole, social responsibility because if I did, then you would not like my version of social responsibility.
I asked my responsibilities exactly what they thought of swearing of others.  Their response(or rather my boy)?" It is not what you said, it is what is behind being said.  You can be polite and use the best words ever and still be trying to destroy a person.  Words are just words - how you use them makes the difference.  It's not bad if someone swears in front of ou, it's bad if someones swearing at you"

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

You are speaking of forcing acts onto others. 

 
quote:

Holding your hand over my mouth, physical, crosses the line

 
Show me anywhere where i have actually suggested this?
Show me where i have spoken of forcing someone physically to do anything?


Misst - for one, please do not take my words out of context.  You simply prove my sons point by doing what you just did.
Both these sentances are based on different posts, and are not related.
 
I will answer them both seperately and not be drawn into people beliving any different.  The first sentance was about your insistance that I am responsible for anothers child.  I am not, and forcing that onto me or anyone else is just that.  By stating that -

quote:

How about being responsible for the consequences of your actions?
Some UM hears you say 'fuck' in a mall and decides to start saying fuck at every opportunity.
Hardly responsible in my opinion.

 
I am not responsible for what a child does after they hear me swear - that is their parents responsibility.
 
The second sentance I made, was in response to your seperate question from my personal pov.
As my boy said - words are just words and any word can be used against another to try and make it look bad.  Please do not believe for one moment that I will allow that to occur with my own.
 
the.dark.



RCdc -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 2:37:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: liljoy

i know of a munch group that recently lost thier munch location because of folks wearing  collars. This after having met there for several years.
i don't know the whole story but i do know the wearing of collars was a big part of the reason they were told not to come back


Then either there was bad communication or the establishment exercised their right to refuse access, which they are quite in their right to do.  It was a private establishment and it set it's rules. 
 
the.dark.



weezyfbaby733 -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 3:23:53 PM)

like any relaionship, the public expects you to keep your sexual relations at home. unless your a social reject, its pretty clear what people in public do and dont want to see. people of bdsm aren't any different from anyone else. why should we not understand whats right or wrong in public?



pinkwind -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 3:45:37 PM)

It all hangs on the majority's mores in the public space we inhabit. When in a public place where the vast majority are "vanilla", for want of a better term, apart from being respectful and following the lead set by Andy, and wearing my usual attire that includes my unusual jewellery, nothing else regarding our proclivities would show to the casual observer. i have never gone out of my way to make a public spectacle of myself or my relationship. If i am in a restaurant what i want is a quiet meal, the same as any other customer has a right to experience.

By the same token, if we were in a space where the propensity of customer were of the same inclination as ourselves, kinky folk, then we could and would exhibit more of our dynamic protocols without fear of objection from onlookers. To use an old phrase, set and setting.

Look around when you go to a restaurant, the most sexual or sensual thing you are likely to catch sight of is a bit of kissing, hand holding, footsie under the table, nothing stronger than that. Most people of whatever proclivity generally try to be discreet in their conduct when in certain types of venue. Just because we do not share others proclivities it does not give us any right to exhibit our relationship in any other way than the accepted norms for the places we visit.

Stray into other folks territory, expect to act in the same general fashion as them or to be prepared for the consequences of upsetting and offending people, let alone breaking laws, be they state, country, or good old, long forgotten by-laws. And of course it works in reverse. Those that stray into ours should be prepared for the unusual, or leave if offended.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 4:32:01 PM)

quote:

My question is where do we draw the line in public? What is appropriate and inappropriate behaviour in public? With so many different kinds of people out there and so many things that can and do cause offence to others, how do we balance living true to our relationships and not offending others?

 
this slave finds it offensive that men can walk around with their nipples hanging out, in public, and women can't, without causing offense and breaking the law...(except in Ohio, thanks BeachMystress!!![;)])
 
this slave finds it offensive that medicine prescribed by her doctor is not allowed to be consumed (smoked) in the same public places that allow tobacco to be consumed (smoked), without causing offense and breaking the law.
 
this slave finds it offensive that folks regard wearing symbols of vanilla relationships (promise/engagement/wedding ring) as perfectly o.k., in public, but folks wearing symbols of an M/s relationship (collar, with or without leash) causes offense and does harm to offspring.
 
personally, this slave has no interest in getting arrested or being cited for breaking the law by doing things that have been legislated as to cause so much offense that it attracts that sort of attention by law enforcement officers, such as the above examples of going topless or smoking cannabis in public.
 
however, this slave's job description does not include taking into consideration everyone's personal preferences on what sort of attire they find offensive before she leaves the house.  only Master's and the constraints of our local "dress code" decency laws.
 
if Master wanted His slave to wear only a pair of thigh high boots, a bright pink string bikini and a big black leather studded collar, with OR without leash for a stroll down the local public sidewalks, she would, and genuinely NOT care if it caused someone else "offense" by viewing her.



chamberqueen -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 4:36:29 PM)

I am in an interracial relationship.  Some could be very offended by seeing a public kiss.  We can go too far in worrying about who we offend.

That being said, it is easy for people to point fingers, and something like a slap could speak very poorly of the lifestyle in general.  If a policeman would have been sitting at the next table there could have been assault charges if he was overzealous.  Personally, I believe that it is correct for anyone involved in the lifestyle to do nothing that could cause their brothers and sisters in the lifestyle to have a harder time living it.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Causing offense. (7/8/2008 5:05:27 PM)

What I do may not be BDSM... it is sensual, sometimes, but if you'll forgive the comparison, what I do is as much about sex for me as rape is about sex. It's about -control- and about intensity and about extremism... and it's about carnality in the sense of completely manipulating flesh, and creating a living, breathing, walking work of art, shaped of blood and skin. Does it get me off? Yes, but not in the way most people mean "getting off" -- it salves my hunger for intensity and evoked sensory potential.

That being said, I am absolutely a social "reject" - or maybe 'reject' is the wrong word, since I have actively chosen my life on the fringes of society. I honestly don't really want to share what I do with any of the vanilla associates I have, much less with vanilla strangers -- I know they won't appreciate the elegance and extremity of what I and the person who shares the scene with me create. On the other hand, I will absolutely push the envelope anywhere that it is safe for me to do so... pushing may make some people uncomfortable, but it won't hurt most people to be a little uncomfortable because they saw me walk into their restaurant in a corset.

Firestorm




quote:

ORIGINAL: weezyfbaby733

like any relaionship, the public expects you to keep your sexual relations at home. unless your a social reject, its pretty clear what people in public do and dont want to see. people of bdsm aren't any different from anyone else. why should we not understand whats right or wrong in public?



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