RE: Causing offense. (Full Version)

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ServingGirrl -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 6:16:47 AM)

i have found in life that it is pointless trying to get another person to accept the viewpoints and mores of another as their own, yet i have also found that it is the discussion of our own viewpoints in a non-forcing, non-judgmental and polite manner that *allows* a person to review and perhaps change their viewpoints of their own accord.

i think labels like PC do little to encourage this process.   Being PC may be seen as being socially conformist but it is every person's right to BE socially conformist in every respect if they so choose.   The only evil of political correctness is when it attempts to enforce another's viewpoint on a person who does not choose to adopt it, and ostracises them for not doing so,

i'm an intersexed woman so i have experienced many of the same stigma that have affected transgendered folk.   i'm a lesbian so have first hand experience at discrimination socially and legally against gay people, and i'm involved in this community which sets me apart from the majority.   i can't see any point in trying to convert others' thinking to make them believe i am 'right' or 'normal' or 'acceptable' or any other adjective; what i do insist on and fight for is the right for MY viewpoint to be held by me and respected by others.

This has been a fascinating thread.   i have my own thoughts on swearing in front of children, leashes in public and the like, but my views aren't important because they relate only to me and are mine to deal with, not to attempt to inflict or impose on others.   i have heard the very different viewpoints expressed here and have learned much from them; they have given me a great deal to consider and i thank you all, but whether that changes my own views ultimately is my decision alone.

What i am trying to say in this roundabout way is that, as individuals, we need to honour the right to individuality of every person here and accept without offence or upset that there are views held here we can never hold or agree with.   We can all disagree and still get along fine, if we make that choice.   No one need leave or get upset or defensive or whatever.   We can simply accept difference and be calm and happy.

Vive le difference~! 



Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 6:21:02 AM)

Very nicely stated.



RCdc -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 6:25:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz

Agreed.

After hearing of the hate mail she received, I felt things had shifted in a nasty fashion.  While people were sharing different opinions in this thread, it seemed to maintain some manner of respect for the others views.

How is sending hate mail to someone who one may think is intolerant any more tolerant? 


It isn't.  But for all the greatness the internet can and does provide, it also gives one the ability to be faceless and propagate hate.
Kudos on your posts btw.(But then we are kind of on the same wavelength, so to say that is kind of 'easy' - but it becomes kind of empty of meaning to just type *herehere*[:)])
 
the.dark.



Aileen1968 -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 6:30:00 AM)

Fast reply...
If I'm in a public space and I see or hear something that is offensive to me (that isn't illegal) I can do one of three things.
I can ignore it.  I can leave.  Or I can say something and put my morals on someone else.  For me, most likely I would either ignore it or leave. 
If I'm in someone's private space and I see something offensive, I see it as my only choice is to either ignore or leave.  I don't feel I have the right to that third option...it's their space.
If I'm in my private space and you do something I find offensive, then I have every right to ask you to stop or to leave if you don't abide by my wishes.  Seems simple enough to me. 



ServingGirrl -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 6:30:50 AM)

Thank You Domin8tingUrDrmz,
as a newcomer to the forums i sometimes feel inhibited in joining in a long-active discussion as i am either ignored or flamed, neither of which i enjoy overlymuch.   i'm grateful someone read the post and appreciated it.

Blessings ............ livvi (Property of Mistress Roni) 



ServingGirrl -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 6:31:53 AM)

Aileen; beautifully put, and with far more brevity than i was able to manage [:)]



Aileen1968 -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 6:38:59 AM)

Blah...that was just a jumble of random pre-coffee thoughts. 
Thanks anyway.



SadisticalDomme -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 6:44:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

Yesterday afternoon around 3.40pm finds me standing at a bus stop in Clapham, not far from where I live. Schools are emptying of children. Teenagers at the bus stop, about ten of them. One of them notices, within a couple of minutes there's comments of 'batty man', 'faggot', laughter, shrieks, photos of me taken on mobile phones. There's another six or seven adults stood at the bus stop. Nobody says anything. I play it cool, I ignore the youths, it's them making a spectacle of themselves not me.



I am sorry you are forced to face this kind of ignorance but I applaud your ability to allow them to be the spectacles.



Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 6:45:18 AM)

Oh hell, I'm still a newcomer too.  Welcome and enjoy your stay.



Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 6:47:26 AM)

Yeah, that was more of a rhetorical question.

There were plenty of times I wanted to say "here here!" to you as well, but figured since we were stating similar thoughts that it was implied [:D].



NeedingMore220 -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 6:56:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
That is called parenting and I brought others into this world knowing that, accepting that and realising I cannot and should not expect anyones behaviour to change around them because that would create children a false world.  A hidden world and one that when they hit their teens and adulthood - suddenly find doesn't exist.


I'm with you on this one, dark.  I don't believe in creating the 'bubble' around kids that other parents do.  I thought about this as I went through my day yesterday. We've certainly run into rude or obnoxious people in our day-to-day lives and if it's been noticed I pointed out where I thought that person was going wrong.  Or the kids have noticed someone different and we've discussed it. 

To think otherwise is to somewhat abdicate my responsibilities as a parent to teach and guide them as I see fit. 

I should also note, so you don't think I'm coming at this from a puritanical standpoint  ... my kids have definitely heard me curse.  At times I've apologized for my crassness if it wasn't appropriate.  At other times (like this morning when chastising them for being unbelievably lazy yesterday and not doing what I'd asked them to do) sometimes words fly and they leave an impression.  Yes, I could lecture them sternly without those words, but sometimes the emotion behind letting a good 'f-word' fly brings home to their little teenaged skulls that I mean business. 

However, I don't choose to let other kids hear my more earthy choice of words...therein may lie our difference.  I would also choose not to be 'out there' with my D/s.  No biggie.  I can see your POV, even though it's not for me. 

One life example that struck me yesterday - when driving to the dance studio, there's a sex shop - rather clean-cut, nothing tawdry really.  But my 12yo last year asked 'what is that place?' because it's obviously something different.  I told her, she said, 'oh,' and we moved on. If my 7yo had asked, I'd have changed the subject or told her I didn't know, because it's not appropriate for her at her age.  Perhaps I am more easy about it than I'd realized at first in this discussion.  lol






Isabelah -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 7:13:48 AM)

~~~Fast Reply~~~~

I didn't have the opportunity to read every single post so I am sure what I am about to say has already been said. I believe that people need to have better boundaries & manners in the lifestyle and in vanilla. These days people have a tendency to forget that people have personal and private space and one just can't assume that their space  is for everyone.  I notice no one says please or thank you anymore because they have the freedom to not do so. To me that is just stupidity. I want to be treated as I treat others and myself.

With that said, I also feel that no one should take advantage of someones submission or dominance because they feel they can and they are simply use to it.  I always look at it this way, if I were in the same shoes as someone else, would I want to be slapped or put in a position that may cause a problems in the future? If one doesn't want it to happen to them they should always respect how the other person feels be it vanilla or d/s. That is called respect and consideration of yourself and others.

Isabelah



CreativeDominant -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 7:30:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz

In that instance I was speaking on a larger scale than the individual.  Yes, there will always be plenty of individuals who hate people based upon race/religion/sexual orientation/whatever.

However, because of the presence and outness of the gay and lesbian folks many more heterosexuals have become tolerant.  If gay and lesbians had not made a fuss over it, no one would automatically give them the right to do anything but be heterosexual.  At least now, enough heterosexuals support gay and lesbians and believe they have equal rights and that is a big improvement over how they were treated years ago.  It will continue to improve if they continue to remain out - eventually it will become no big deal.  There is still a lot of work and room for improvement on how others view gay and lesbians, I'm not suggesting things are perfect, if they were, their right to be married wouldn't be a ballot issue, it simply wouldn't be an issue.

Do you think we would have freed slaves (the non consensual kind) if they didn't stand up for their freedom?



Actually, I disagree.  I am heterosexual and I have been more moved by my gay and bisexual and lesbian friends who worked quietly and used reason and logic to support their argument than I have by those who simply come forth with an emotional statement that boils down to an adult equivalent of a child's "but that's not FAIR!!!". 

And as far as the slaves being freed, history shows that it was not their rising up to be heard that freed them, it was others who felt deeply and passionately about their plight and then used reasonable and rational arguments on top of that passion to change the laws.



IrishMist -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 8:07:23 AM)

quote:

For petes sake IM.
I am leaving because this frustrates me and I seem unable to get my meaning across. I am at cross purposes and I hate that feeling.
I am also leaving because I have stuff to do away from the computer.

Nice little insult there btw, that I haven't backbone.
I responded to your words because I did not want to be pushing this thread in the wrong direction, that is all. I was apologizing for hijacking.
If you want to see that as being without a backbone then what can I say?

We all know how much I live to insult [:D]

With that in mind, I can also say that what you put here says more for how much I respect you than that other post did ( which prompted my little insult ).

On that note, I will add my thoughts to the others about hate mail. Sending hate mail to another because of something that they posted on the boards...is cowardly, weak, and shows a total lack of self confidence in one's ability to make their own position understood.

But...each to their own I guess.




Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 8:27:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz

In that instance I was speaking on a larger scale than the individual.  Yes, there will always be plenty of individuals who hate people based upon race/religion/sexual orientation/whatever.

However, because of the presence and outness of the gay and lesbian folks many more heterosexuals have become tolerant.  If gay and lesbians had not made a fuss over it, no one would automatically give them the right to do anything but be heterosexual.  At least now, enough heterosexuals support gay and lesbians and believe they have equal rights and that is a big improvement over how they were treated years ago.  It will continue to improve if they continue to remain out - eventually it will become no big deal.  There is still a lot of work and room for improvement on how others view gay and lesbians, I'm not suggesting things are perfect, if they were, their right to be married wouldn't be a ballot issue, it simply wouldn't be an issue.

Do you think we would have freed slaves (the non consensual kind) if they didn't stand up for their freedom?



Actually, I disagree.  I am heterosexual and I have been more moved by my gay and bisexual and lesbian friends who worked quietly and used reason and logic to support their argument than I have by those who simply come forth with an emotional statement that boils down to an adult equivalent of a child's "but that's not FAIR!!!". 

And as far as the slaves being freed, history shows that it was not their rising up to be heard that freed them, it was others who felt deeply and passionately about their plight and then used reasonable and rational arguments on top of that passion to change the laws.


I was moved by my friend's actions, not emotional statements.  Some of my friends would be walking around town holding hands and on more than one occasion were assaulted.  It bothered me more that they were assaulted for nothing more than holding hands, or kissing someone they loved, than it did to witness those actions.  If those actions are the equivalent to a child screaming "it's not fair", then we can agree to disagree.

Regarding the slaves, from my learning, it was a combination of both.  Slaves who attempted to leave their condition were routinely killed.  However, they did make attempts.  I don't think people would have felt remorseful for them and attempted to enact laws on their behalf if the slaves behaved as if everything was fine and dandy.



QuietPeppermint -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 11:17:26 AM)

quote:

consequence whatsoever.
Evolution involved risk. You cannot grow without it.

the.dark.

_____________________________


Darcy
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietPeppermint
For that reason, I would advise against doing anything risky in public, simply because you have no idea what consequences could follow.


Greetings QP and welcome to the forums.

I snipped most of your post, because I feel that the last sentance is basically it wrapped up in a nutshell.  I apologise if this is incorrect.
But I am going to focus on this.

Let there be no trees.  Let there be no street artists. Nor cars and bicycles - skateboards and music. Let there be no television, no magic, no more Enid Blyton or Prince Caspian.  Let us remove religon and politics.  Because if we as a people stopped doing everything that carried some sort of risk, then we may as well all die now, just because.
The most dangerous notion a person can have?  That there are actions that contain no risk or consequence whatsoever.
Evolution involved risk.  You cannot grow without it.

the.dark.


Thank you, but I believe you have oversimplified my intent, and taken a sentence out of context.

If you re-read what I wrote, I was okay with a lot of things. Collars, in my mind, are fine. There are a lot of behaviors that are traditionally s&m that I understand in public. HOWEVER, and this is my opinion, certain things don't need to be done in front of children. Certain risks.

To refute your list: When children see things on TV, I would like to hope they understand "it's just TV." Special effects, magic, whatnot. From what I see, a little kid trying to act like Obama or Clinton or McCain does on TV [ giving speeches ] is not dangerous at all. Great.  A little kid kneeling in front of a make-shift altar to any god... okay, not really that bad. Cars&motorcycles... skateboards... all those are items that children USUALLY can not simply grab off a shelf.

It's not about "stopping anything with risk." I, for one, am often fond of telling my friends that we should remove all warning labels from products & let the problem of stupidity solve itself. [Like, McDonald's warning that their coffee is hot.. orly ?]

HOWEVER, slapping someone's face... and putting someone on a leash... are two things that carry VERY high risk. It is not TV. Children see it "in real life." That plays a very big role in this... after all, grown-ups are doing it, why not them ? A leash can easily be made by simply tying someone up with string. A leash INVOLVES jerking someone around.. with something around their neck. Yes, collars can be bad for little kids but a leash is MUCH worse.

I completely agree that advancements in human society require risk. But, no offense to anyone, I do not think BDSM is the "evolution" of man in any way. What will a child learn by slapping or [accidently] choking someone ?


*EDIT: I'm also going to give my opinion for cursing.


My parents never cursed around me. In fact, my mother probably knows 2 curse words. I grew up thinking it was disrespectful, and I still believe that now.

I know some people like to "shock"; but I find it annoying and unappealing when it's not in the right context. Don't get me wrong, if you asked my friends, they would unanimously tell you I am one of the biggest dramaqueens / shockers around [I love scandalized faces], but they are my friends. I would NOT go up to someone in public and announce happily that I love being whipped with a belt or slapped in the face. [I also find public mooners REALLY offensive]. Even if I was shot in the leg, I would be hesitant to scream "OH FUCKING MOTHER GOD BITCH ASS SHOT ME." To me, that reeks of un-refinement. [TO ME!], it shows how much class you have [and if you can't guess already, my PERSONAL OPINION is none].

I'm REALLY REALLY REALLY sorry if my personal opinion has offended anyone. As someone stated above, I AM NOT TRYING TO CHANGE ANYONE'S MIND. But this is a forum for the exchange of ideas, and I am simply putting mine out there.



RCdc -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 11:50:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietPeppermint
Thank you, but I believe you have oversimplified my intent, and taken a sentence out of context.


It really is that simple.

quote:

If you re-read what I wrote, I was okay with a lot of things. Collars, in my mind, are fine. There are a lot of behaviors that are traditionally s&m that I understand in public. HOWEVER, and this is my opinion, certain things don't need to be done in front of children. Certain risks.

 
It's great you are ok with many things.  But if you believe that a child may not choke on a collar, then that would be far more concerning to me.

quote:

To refute your list: When children see things on TV, I would like to hope they understand "it's just TV." Special effects, magic, whatnot. From what I see, a little kid trying to act like Obama or Clinton or McCain does on TV [ giving speeches ] is not dangerous at all. Great.  A little kid kneeling in front of a make-shift altar to any god... okay, not really that bad. Cars&motorcycles... skateboards... all those are items that children USUALLY can not simply grab off a shelf.

They may understand that 'it's just T.V' but that doesn't stop them from trying.  And these items are absolutely there for children to get their hands on - if you don;t believe they can, another worry.  If they can't have it, they will build it.

quote:

It's not about "stopping anything with risk." I, for one, am often fond of telling my friends that we should remove all warning labels from products & let the problem of stupidity solve itself. [Like, McDonald's warning that their coffee is hot.. orly ?]


That was not what you initially stated.

quote:

HOWEVER, slapping someone's face... and putting someone on a leash... and two things that carry VERY high risk. It is not TV. Children see it "in real life." That plays a very big role in this... after all, grown-ups are doing it, why not them ? A leash can easily be made by simply tying someone up with string. A leash INVOLVES jerking someone around.. with something around their neck. Yes, collars can be bad for little kids but a leash is MUCH worse.


And?  They do it anyway.  Why not teach the to be responsible with it?  And as for being much worse?  No.  Again that assumption is dangerous.

quote:

I have completely agree that advancements in human society require risk. But, no offense to anyone, I do not think BDSM is the "evolution" of man in any way. What will a child learn by slapping or [accidently] choking someone ?


A lot.  And besides, it isn't the action, it is the intent.  And if you can teach about that instead of letting it all be about the action - learning can be great.
And as you, I don't believe BDSM is the evolution of man.  I never said it was.  But learning is part of what we evolve into being.  Swaddling just sufforcates.
There is a great ad run by 'orange' right now entitled 'I AM'.  It fucking rocks.
 
Over simplified? No it really is that simple.
the.dark.
 



QuietPeppermint -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 11:58:53 AM)

Ah well, if you really think that it's that simple, then I can't convince you otherwise :].



I do enjoy reading your posts though... it's great you think everything out. I respect that very much.



RCdc -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 12:01:01 PM)

Meh, I like to keep things simple.  Drama doesn't rock.[:D]
And I do love your avatar image btw - it is wonderfully simple and says much.
 
Be safe
the.dark.



CreativeDominant -> RE: Causing offense. (7/9/2008 12:21:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz

In that instance I was speaking on a larger scale than the individual.  Yes, there will always be plenty of individuals who hate people based upon race/religion/sexual orientation/whatever.

However, because of the presence and outness of the gay and lesbian folks many more heterosexuals have become tolerant.  If gay and lesbians had not made a fuss over it, no one would automatically give them the right to do anything but be heterosexual.  At least now, enough heterosexuals support gay and lesbians and believe they have equal rights and that is a big improvement over how they were treated years ago.  It will continue to improve if they continue to remain out - eventually it will become no big deal.  There is still a lot of work and room for improvement on how others view gay and lesbians, I'm not suggesting things are perfect, if they were, their right to be married wouldn't be a ballot issue, it simply wouldn't be an issue.

Do you think we would have freed slaves (the non consensual kind) if they didn't stand up for their freedom?



Actually, I disagree.  I am heterosexual and I have been more moved by my gay and bisexual and lesbian friends who worked quietly and used reason and logic to support their argument than I have by those who simply come forth with an emotional statement that boils down to an adult equivalent of a child's "but that's not FAIR!!!". 

And as far as the slaves being freed, history shows that it was not their rising up to be heard that freed them, it was others who felt deeply and passionately about their plight and then used reasonable and rational arguments on top of that passion to change the laws.


I was moved by my friend's actions, not emotional statements.  Some of my friends would be walking around town holding hands and on more than one occasion were assaulted.  It bothered me more that they were assaulted for nothing more than holding hands, or kissing someone they loved, than it did to witness those actions.  If those actions are the equivalent to a child screaming "it's not fair", then we can agree to disagree.


No disagreement.  Those actions speak of a quiet strength and a belief in what they are and who they are.  They are not "in-your-face, I am going to do WHATEVER I want to do even if it involves behavior beyond what society accepts from straight people out in public" actions.  But my point above was not referring to actions, it was referring to words...specifically, emotionally-charged-but- no- argument- of substance- behind- them words.  Since you brought in actions though, I stand by what I have stated to you in this paragraph regarding actions.

quote:

Regarding the slaves, from my learning, it was a combination of both.  Slaves who attempted to leave their condition were routinely killed.  However, they did make attempts.  I don't think people would have felt remorseful for them and attempted to enact laws on their behalf if the slaves behaved as if everything was fine and dandy.


Again though, that was not slaves speaking up and demanding to be freed, that was certain slaves taking an action.  Perhaps you are thinking that my argument is strictly semantics but I see taking action and speaking out as two different things.  Yes, their actions resulted in others speaking out AND acting out to free them.  But just as their freedom could not be attained by their actions alone, neither could it have been obtained only by the words of those who spoke up for them. 



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