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RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/9/2008 12:04:51 AM

OTKkindaGirl

Posts: 447
Joined: 12/26/2005
From: NW Arkansas
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i suppose as long as ya aint'n wantin' to use any parts of me as frog bait or askins me to put 'em up on tops of ma head!!!! glads yuins gotz a cents of humor!!!

seriously, thanks for responding to my post.

_____________________________

~~ lil darlin' ~~
hope

(in reply to MisterBeast)

Post #: 21

RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/9/2008 12:07:17 AM

MisterBeast

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Joined: 6/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OTKkindaGirl

i suppose as long as ya aint'n wantin' to use any parts of me as frog bait or askins me to put 'em up on tops of ma head!!!! glads yuins gotz a cents of humor!!!

seriously, thanks for responding to my post.

Oh crap, now ive gone and done it, Dom's cant have a sense of humor, we must remain uber serious with a stick up our bum's at all time. (unless were beating you with said stick right?)

Yall come back now ya hear!

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)

Post #: 22

RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/9/2008 12:24:38 AM

Maxwell67

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Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MisterBeast

Oh my Gawd, this just turned into the Chicken-egg quandary!

Well, alright, yes, I suppose so. But in this dynamic the sumissive's role is passive.. If thier submission was a gift, that would mean they gave it, and they are not the active party here. Dominants take control, and submissives can only react. They can fight or they can submit. They cannot give. That is not an option.. That is the dynamic.

(in reply to MisterBeast)

Post #: 23

RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/9/2008 12:27:50 AM

MisterBeast

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Joined: 6/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67

quote:

ORIGINAL: MisterBeast

Oh my Gawd, this just turned into the Chicken-egg quandary!

Well, alright, yes, I suppose so. But in this dynamic the sumissive's role is passive.. If thier submission was a gift, that would mean they gave it, and they are not the active party here. Dominants take control, and submissives can only react. They can fight or they can submit. They cannot give. That is not an option.. That is the dynamic.

So what do you call it then when they push your buttons trying to get you to step up and dominate them?

(in reply to Maxwell67)

Post #: 24

RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/9/2008 12:29:51 AM

Maxwell67

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Topping from the bottom.

(in reply to MisterBeast)

Post #: 25

RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/9/2008 12:37:53 AM

OTKkindaGirl

Posts: 447
Joined: 12/26/2005
From: NW Arkansas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67

quote:

ORIGINAL: OTKkindaGirl

"yeppers.... caint have a submissive havin' any power over decidin' which I/idget is the one fer her, no sir i tells it like it is cuz this 'ere thread wuz just chalked full of the afore mentioned S/slashy angry S/speak and all kines of folks thinkin they're all high n mighty and good gawd forbid.... special!"

LA..... you hit it right on the head about the Maturity thing you stated earlier!

*gigglez*

I agree, but do remember this IS the "Ask a Master" forum you posted in, and if you wanted the opinions only of subs it might have been more helpful to post...
well.. anywhere but here really.

That being said, I went all mushy for a while over the 'gift of submission' thing. It's romantical and all, and I appreciate that, but really when you look at it you do not gift someone with your submission.. you submit. You can give your trust, your respect, your obediance, your loyalty, your devotion, and your love. But you cannot give submission, you can only submit.

Respectfully, i do remember which forum i posted this in and i have been waiting patiently to recieve some input from Dominants, i can't be held responsible for submissives responding but i am not disappointed that they did and especially when a point has been made affirming some of my own opinions.

And again, even more respectfully.... submission can be withheld just as love can be withheld. submission is just as much an action of choice as any of the other beautiful qualities you have mentioned.
i can understand not wanting to romanticize submission but it truly is an act usually sustained by the love, loyalty, devotion and obedience to the one we give all power to, is it not?

if it isn't then what makes a submissive so much more different than someone who is vanilla ? why not go for the vanilla if submission is not all that big of deal? i know that there are dominant vanilla men, plenty. but none that seem to have an appreciation for WIIWD. i do place a value on Doms in the lifestyle because there is understanding and value, for the most part when it comes to serving them.

i do value your opinion and truly appreciate your response. i will continue to ponder the wonder of it all.

_____________________________

~~ lil darlin' ~~
hope

(in reply to Maxwell67)

Post #: 26

RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/9/2008 1:00:00 AM

Maxwell67

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Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OTKkindaGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67

I agree, but do remember this IS the "Ask a Master" forum you posted in, and if you wanted the opinions only of subs it might have been more helpful to post...
well.. anywhere but here really.

That being said, I went all mushy for a while over the 'gift of submission' thing. It's romantical and all, and I appreciate that, but really when you look at it you do not gift someone with your submission.. you submit. You can give your trust, your respect, your obediance, your loyalty, your devotion, and your love. But you cannot give submission, you can only submit.

Respectfully, i do remember which forum i posted this in and i have been waiting patiently to recieve some input from Dominants, i can't be held responsible for submissives responding but i am not disappointed that they did and especially when a point has been made affirming some of my own opinions.

No one is dissapointed. It has all been very thought provoking and I would not have put enough thought into it to reach my conclusion if you had not raised the question...so thanks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OTKkindaGirl
And again, even more respectfully.... submission can be withheld just as love can be withheld. submission is just as much an action of choice as any of the other beautiful qualities you have mentioned.
i can understand not wanting to romanticize submission but it truly is an act usually sustained by the love, loyalty, devotion and obedience to the one we give all power to, is it not?

I know you were writing this and did not get to read my other posts first, and probably you got it now, but just to be clear. submitting is willfull refraining from action.. letting the dominant take control.

A submissive can be more or less counted on to submit, provided they have given the dominant their trust, at the least. If theres no trust, then the sub did not submit, but was coerced, if it was something the sub wanted to do, then they are cooperating, (again, not submitting...) In all fairness one can only submit truly if it is to somethng they don't want. They let the Dominant impress their will with no fight.

In this dynamic, to submit is to make a sort of passive leap of faith. And that is what proves the strength and 'specialness' of a submissive. Because I could never do that.

< Message edited by Maxwell67 -- 7/9/2008 1:03:31 AM >

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)

Post #: 27

RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/9/2008 1:02:31 AM

MisterBeast

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Joined: 6/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67
In this dynamic, to submit is to make a sort of passive leap of faith. And that is what proves the strength and 'specialness' of a submissive. Because I could never do that.

I know the feeling, and early on (and even still in some respects) it made it very diffacult for me to understand why anyone in thier right mind would want to submit, because I know some one would have better luck getting a blow job from a rattle snake than trying to get me to bow down before them.

(in reply to Maxwell67)

Post #: 28

RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/9/2008 6:37:19 AM

cillydom

Posts: 332
Joined: 3/3/2006
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dominance or submission is the way we express our sexuality has nothing to do with gifts or rights, it just is.

as such we need another of the opisite persuasion to express our dominance or submissiveness.

m/s is heirerarchical relationship based on our sexuality

in a way we are a tool for each other.

its not a choice we make it just is the way we are

the exception are those that are in it to experiment to see what its like

the expression i like is "both serve the relationship"

< Message edited by cillydom -- 7/9/2008 6:39:07 AM >

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)

Post #: 29

RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/9/2008 6:41:54 AM

sambamanslilgirl

Posts: 10926
Joined: 2/5/2007
From: Chicago, IL
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speaking for myself and Daddy only

Daddy viewed my submission as a gift because He didn't have to the right to demand it out of me. that, to Him, is taking something under duress and He's not like that. He would rather have my trust after earning it and my friendship after getting to know me than expecting me to submit sans the trust, friendship and etc at first sight.

_____________________________

...2011 - year of the fabulous rock star life ...and i do it so well...

...announcing Mr. & Mrs. British Petrol ...yeah, marrying into oil is slick business...

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)

Post #: 30

RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/9/2008 7:36:31 AM

Evility

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Joined: 12/19/2007
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I have never seen submission as a gift. I don't want it if she feels she is bestowing a gift on me. I want it because she is drawn to submit and is drawn to me. Everyone has their own take on it, I suppose.

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)

Post #: 31

RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/9/2008 7:41:34 AM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
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For me, submission is to yield to the authority of another. It is not a gift. i yield because i recognize that Authority in another.

When i work, my work is not a gift to my boss nor to the company i work for, it is an exchange based on an agreed to dynamic. The company does have a right to my submission within the guidelines of my job description but does not have a right to my submission outside the confines of my job. Should i break the law, a police officer has the right to my submission to being arrested but does not have a right to beat me or even make me wash his car. my 'going along quietly' is not a gift.

When i begged my Master for my collar, He obtained me with the right to expect what i promised Him. Or another way to look at it: You can give a person a present but once given, it no longer belongs to you and you cannot continue to give it. Once i gave myself to my Master i became His property and am now His to do with as He pleases.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)

Post #: 32

RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/9/2008 8:12:02 AM

OTKkindaGirl

Posts: 447
Joined: 12/26/2005
From: NW Arkansas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67

I know you were writing this and did not get to read my other posts first, and probably you got it now, but just to be clear. submitting is willfull refraining from action.. letting the dominant take control.

A submissive can be more or less counted on to submit, provided they have given the dominant their trust, at the least. If theres no trust, then the sub did not submit, but was coerced, if it was something the sub wanted to do, then they are cooperating, (again, not submitting...) In all fairness one can only submit truly if it is to somethng they don't want. They let the Dominant impress their will with no fight.

In this dynamic, to submit is to make a sort of passive leap of faith. And that is what proves the strength and 'specialness' of a submissive. Because I could never do that.

i truly appreciate your patience with me and i do understand what you are saying. i am not saying that i disagree with you at all. i like your perspective calling submission a passive leap of faith.

*smile* so to you it isn't a gift, it isn't really your right until it is given to you but you do at least hold value to it enough to call it special and you recognize that it does take a certain strength to be able to do it rather than considering it a weakness. i can really appreciate that statement. you have made some very validating points and again i thank you.

< Message edited by OTKkindaGirl -- 7/9/2008 8:13:07 AM >

_____________________________

~~ lil darlin' ~~
hope

(in reply to Maxwell67)

Post #: 33

RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/9/2008 8:34:34 AM

OTKkindaGirl

Posts: 447
Joined: 12/26/2005
From: NW Arkansas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

For me, submission is to yield to the authority of another. It is not a gift. i yield because i recognize that Authority in another.

When i begged my Master for my collar, He obtained me with the right to expect what i promised Him. Or another way to look at it: You can give a person a present but once given, it no longer belongs to you and you cannot continue to give it. Once i gave myself to my Master i became His property and am now His to do with as He pleases.

i do appreciate your view on this, and i do agree with a majority of what you have said. maybe my problem lies in the fact that i haven't begged for a collar yet. i'm not saying that i haven't been collared because i have been. So this brings to mind a new question....

Is receiving a collar not akin to accepting Domination as a gift from the one you are serving?

am i highjacking my own thread here?

_____________________________

~~ lil darlin' ~~
hope

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 34

RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/9/2008 1:51:45 PM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OTKkindaGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

For me, submission is to yield to the authority of another. It is not a gift. i yield because i recognize that Authority in another.

When i begged my Master for my collar, He obtained me with the right to expect what i promised Him. Or another way to look at it: You can give a person a present but once given, it no longer belongs to you and you cannot continue to give it. Once i gave myself to my Master i became His property and am now His to do with as He pleases.

i do appreciate your view on this, and i do agree with a majority of what you have said. maybe my problem lies in the fact that i haven't begged for a collar yet. i'm not saying that i haven't been collared because i have been. So this brings to mind a new question....

Is receiving a collar not akin to accepting Domination as a gift from the one you are serving?

am i highjacking my own thread here?

my opinion, YMMV. His Domination is not a gift. my submission is not a gift. He is Dominant. i am submissive to Him. Our attributes are not gifts. His masculinity is not a gift, his outrageous sense of humor is not a gift, his wisdom is not a gift, his sense of honor is not a gift, his strong work ethic is not a gift, his generous heart is not a gift. Do i benefit from His having these attributes? Yes. Am i grateful every day that He has these attributes? Yes. But they would be a part of Him whether i were his slave or not, so they are not gifts.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)

Post #: 35

RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/9/2008 2:25:41 PM

SirDominic

Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
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This idea of submission being a gift has been batted about very many times on these boards. I respond to it this way. My slave's submission is a gift, one of the most wonderful gifts I have ever received. My Domination is a gift, one of the most precious gifts she has ever been given.

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)

Post #: 36

RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/9/2008 11:35:47 PM

masterforRT

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Joined: 5/16/2008
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Interesting question....

I think both. I think that a master deserves a certain amount of respect just for being a master. It's like the way I feel about George W. Bush. I might not like the man at all, but I still respect the office that man has attained. That said, he STILL has to work to get my respect (and has failed miserably at doing so).

Subs should be the same way-they should have some respect for the position of Master, but then the person should have to earn the rest of their respect (and trust).

I hope I'm making sense here-this is an interesting and quite debatible topic.

(in reply to MisterBeast)

Post #: 37

RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/9/2008 11:50:27 PM

Leatherist

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Joined: 12/11/2007
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It's neither in actuality.

It's an emotional fullfillment that involves another person to be sated.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)

Post #: 38

RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/10/2008 3:07:02 AM

XaviersXian

Posts: 525
Joined: 9/8/2007
From: Australia
Status: offline

greetings hope,

I don't honestly see submission (or my slavery) as either a right, or a gift. It is a reaction to truly dominant men (whether they are my Master or not). When I met my Master, I *reacted* to His dominant nature. I felt it encircle me, and claim my slave nature as its own.

I *reacted* to a vanilla friend of ours as if he was a Master (because of his nature). He dropped me into deep slavespace from a simple act of (non sexually) touching my shoulder during a martial arts training session. My Master saw it, and I felt it. It was then that I realised that certain types of men could subconsciously compel my slavery.

well wishes,

(in reply to Leatherist)

Post #: 39

RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/10/2008 3:35:18 AM

Maxwell67

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Joined: 6/29/2008
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I think what we are really looking at here in the D/s relationship is something like a game of tic-tac-toe in which the players agree that the dominant always goes first. The only way for the sub to have control is to refuse to play at all. So they really need to look around a lot to find someone they feel they can give enough trust and respect to that they are happy to lose every game simply for the pleasure of playing it with this particular person. What does the dominant get then? They get to win every game. Not a bad deal really, but if you know you can win every game if you want to, it tends to make you feel a little magnanimous at times.. so you might not play to win every time.

edit..: No, wait, that would be switching. No.. perhaps it would be better to say the consolation prize is usually well worth losing for

< Message edited by Maxwell67 -- 7/10/2008 3:46:32 AM >

(in reply to XaviersXian)

Post #: 40

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