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RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/10/2008 3:53:35 AM   
naturalsin


Posts: 92
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline 		my submission would be a gift if i wrap a big red bow around myself! i dont see it as a gift, but then again i am still new to this (kinda) and probably a tad naive.

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sinful

(in reply to Maxwell67)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/10/2008 5:10:27 AM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		I honestly don't view it as a right nor a gift.  It's something that just naturally happens.  Either it does or does not.   It's like knowing when the moment is right to take that first kiss.  

I've never treated it like a right nor a gift.  I'm rather Dominant, and that's the why that I am.  If I can give somebody the warm and fuzzy feeling of submission.  Well, it's not really a right nor a gift.   It just naturally is, what it is.

When somebody looks up at me, I look at them, and I see the world in their eyes. When somebody thinks so much of me, that they would do nearly anything and everything for me, that they humanly could do.  That's what I call true submission.

It's not something that I can force out of somebody at the end of a flogger, it's not something they packaged up and give to me either.  With submission, they can't help but want to give themself to me freely and fully.   It makes them happy submitting to me, and it makes me happy too. 

I don't know if any of this makes any sense to anybody here.  I read this post on it being a Gift and about it being a Right.   Things that well, just don't make a fucking bit of sense to me.  Does not compute to my own personal experiences!   I've never had anybody submit to me because it was a "right" nor "gift".

Dare I say it, I think there are too many people trying to force things and ideas in regards to something that happens very natural.

It's my own personal opinion that a lot of people are off in fantasy land, and are trying to force things to the point, that well it's just not natural! 

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/10/2008 10:12:22 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		I see D/s as a natural evolution between differing but complimentary personality types..
 
Unfortunately, too many others seem to see them as cut and dried  "roles"..and I find this rather silly. They then proceed to try to make it like some sort of absurd game-with everything neatly cubbyholed-codes of conduct and rules..etc.. ad nauseum.
 
 Sorry people-these *short cuts* simply do not replace the work that needs to be done in establishing this kind of connection. You can fantacize about "perfection" and "lifestyles" all you want. They remain fantasies until you put in the time and effort to make them REAL.
 
 If you think that changing another person to fit your standards and expectations is an ideal-begin doing that with *yourself* first.
 
 And be worthy of what you are expecting.
 
Anything less is simply hypocrasy.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/10/2008 10:16:59 AM   
NeedingMore220


Posts: 615
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave
When somebody looks up at me, I look at them, and I see the world in their eyes. When somebody thinks so much of me, that they would do nearly anything and everything for me, that they humanly could do.  That's what I call true submission.

It's not something that I can force out of somebody at the end of a flogger, it's not something they packaged up and give to me either.  With submission, they can't help but want to give themself to me freely and fully.   It makes them happy submitting to me, and it makes me happy too. 


I really  like how you phrased this, and understand exactly what you mean.

(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/10/2008 10:27:15 AM   
Maxwell67


Posts: 435
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67

I think what we are really looking at here in the D/s relationship is ...(snip)...
edit..:  No, wait, that would be switching.   No.. perhaps it would be better to say the consolation prize is usually well worth losing for


See, this is what happens when I do not hear the alarm go off.....I must have been very tired when I wrote that, hehe.

(in reply to Maxwell67)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/10/2008 11:07:38 AM   
sirguym


Posts: 318
Joined: 8/10/2007
Status: offline 		It is not an either/or. That is a false and artificial dichotomy.

If you choose to submit to me, I am your Master. If I am your Master I should expect your submission.

If at any point you want to withdraw your submission, you can do so, then I am no longer your Master.

You give your submission, and you can withdraw it at any time. I can choose to accept it, or reject it.

A man can clain to be a Master can demand submission of one who would be his slave, but if it is not given, he is not their Master.

But you can't have a Master without giving your submission. You cannot be a Master if your slave does not submit.

(in reply to Maxwell67)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/10/2008 11:08:37 AM   
MasterDragon1963


Posts: 51
Joined: 10/2/2005
Status: offline 		Sometimes an equation is made between reality and illusion, which may be fine unless its their illusion and your reality. What we choose to call it is not as important as how well it is handled. Whether it is a gift or a right or neither will not matter if it is not appreciated and respected. Some will understand you and your abilities clearly, some will have no clue, nor even care.

Master Dragon

_____________________________

It is not enough to walk thru the fire, but to embrace it, the flesh may be burned, but the pureness of the spirit shall endure forever.

(in reply to Maxwell67)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/10/2008 10:16:17 PM   
OTKkindaGirl


Posts: 447
Joined: 12/26/2005
From: NW Arkansas
Status: offline 		Thank you everyone that has taken the time to actually give me input.  i find myself agreeing with everybody.  they are all valid points.  i have been through almost all of them logically according to who i am dealing with at the time.

i've never really given it much thought, i just know that views differ from person to person and i wanted to see what the majority is overall.  once while i was under somebody's guidance i was introduced to many different people, Dom/mes and subs alike.  i was confused by the many different reactions that i received in less than a couple of  hours.  i was offered up for service and though there were some that would have me, i was not relinquished to their care.  i found this fascinating as well.  strange that the ones that i would have chosen if i could have, each had different views about submission as well.
i did not ask or elicit opinions, i just kept my mouth shut, eyes down unless pulled up, and listened to all that was being said.  it is something that has just stood out in my mind.

almost every time that i have submitted, it is because i truly wanted to.  when i submit, i don't think about why i do it, only that i hope i am pleasing.  some people pull my submission out of me much greater than others, i think this is natural.

there have been times when i wouldn't feel valued at all or even cared about and in my own mind it didn't even matter because i held value over my submission, knowing that i was doing the best that i could.  those were rough times, let me tell ya.

on the rare occassion that i'd done something that i absolutely hated and deplored i would get angry not only at the situation but even moreso with myself, just for getting angry in the first place.  i guess it is at that critical moment, when i am questioning my own responses and reasonings where i wonder what it is all for, if it really goes unappreciated?  does it in fact hold any value to the person i am submitting to?
(all these questions are rhetorical and just to let you know where my mind is during such times) 

i have never complained about a task or limit being pushed until after the fact and then and only then, if i have been questioned thoroughly.  Why fuel the fire if my hatred for something is only going to be used against me further down the road (again rhetorical) and yes this does happen.  i see no point, unless of course i know that the deed is in fact something deeply appreciated and valued for the cost i pay with my own self inflicted inner turmoil.   do i see such behaviour as a "gift" to the one i am submitting to?  no.  do i expect something in return?  no, but a little appreciation makes it easier to deal with if there is a next time.  key word  "if" there is a next time.  i give myself completely, but when forced beyond my limits, it's over for me especially when there is a sufferable breakdown of communication.  trust being violated always affects me negatively as i am sure is the case with every human on this planet.

in a more positive view, there have been times when i have gone beyond my limits and greatly appreciated for it with encouragement and praise all the while.  it made it much more bearable even though the inner conflict remained.  what a difference it makes both mentally and emotionally. 

am i less submissive in either case... no.  is the domination any less in either case...no.
my point is, it really does depend on the people involved and the way we inneract with each other.  do i feel like it is a Dominants right to treat me in whatever way he wishes, when i have submitted to him, yes.  does feeling valued as i submit really make a difference?  yes.  do i view that value as a gift..... yes in regards to the Dominant placing the value and appreciating it, that being his gift of being able to bring it forth.  and yes, the submissive that gives their all (even though they don't want to) and accepting the value placed upon themselves through the Dominant's encouragement, i can't help it, i see it as a gift. 

Ordinary submission to ordinary or daily tasks, a gift?  no.  ordinary submission a right, as i see it, yes, if you're the Owner but only if You are the Owner! *smile*

in my view, its the extraordinary and the above and beyond where the line becomes a bit blurry for me.  to me, it truly is about the balance of the dynamic and it isn't always black and white.  

this is just my perspective at this point in time.  i am a woman and like the weather in Arkansas, it can change four or five times in a day.   

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~~ lil darlin' ~~
hope



(in reply to MasterDragon1963)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/10/2008 10:21:18 PM   
BelleMorte1969


Posts: 49
Joined: 6/10/2008
Status: offline 		Thank you for sharing.  I would be proud to own a slave like you.  I do hope you find everything you seek and then some OTK.  Kisses........

B



Women get sex whenever they want it.  What do men get in return?  We let you.

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/11/2008 12:33:52 AM   
Maxwell67


Posts: 435
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OTKkindaGirl

Thank you everyone that has taken the time to actually give me input.  i find myself agreeing with everybody.  they are all valid points.  i have been through almost all of them logically according to who i am dealing with at the time.


You are very welcome.  The entire thread was a pleasure to read and to respond to.  Your summation describing your own experiences and views (and managing to incorporate most of the concepts others were describing in one way or another.. very cleverly submissive of you) was interesting, and insightful.  You make it obvious that gift or no gift, you place great value on your ability to submit, and do not wish to have it taken for granted.  It leaves me curious as to what motivates you to choose to give this gift of submission to a dominant.  It almost seems from your description as if you are some sort of communally owned submissive.  Does anyone who claims to value your submission then qualify or do only truly submit to one dominant, servicing others as directed by your owner?

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/11/2008 10:10:48 PM   
OTKkindaGirl


Posts: 447
Joined: 12/26/2005
From: NW Arkansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67
You are very welcome.  The entire thread was a pleasure to read and to respond to.  Your summation describing your own experiences and views (and managing to incorporate most of the concepts others were describing in one way or another.. very cleverly submissive of you) was interesting, and insightful.  You make it obvious that gift or no gift, you place great value on your ability to submit, and do not wish to have it taken for granted.  It leaves me curious as to what motivates you to choose to give this gift of submission to a dominant.  It almost seems from your description as if you are some sort of communally owned submissive.  Does anyone who claims to value your submission then qualify or do only truly submit to one dominant, servicing others as directed by your owner?


Maxwell, Sir,

You ask some truly wonderful questions.... i love it when i am made to ponder.  *smile*
Submissive by nature, honestly i don't have to work at it very often but what motivates me to serve?  i think that would be to know that i am pleasing and to bring forth an appreciation for my very being, inspires me to be my very best.  When i serve it is with the hope that i will be missed and desired, now as well as later down the road.  i would like to know that anyone that i have ever served will look back and remember me with a fondness and perhaps a certain amount of ..... je ne sais pas....longing?  i want to be wanted and i want to be remembered in a positive way.  Wasn't it Mae West who said "always leave them wanting more."?   i have not been a communally owned servant before.  when i was owned, i was handed over a couple of times or so, each for a different purpose with different reasons, though at those times i was in chastity.  *smile*  

i am adventurous and i love meeting people.  i know this is a dangerous world and i know how evil a situation can turn.  i know that each time i meet somebody for the first time i am putting myself at risk and it is a risk that i find worth making.  that being said, i have met (in real time, not just on the computer) several Dominants.  No, i haven't submitted to half of them either.  A few, yes i have.  Even fewer yet, have i actually put myself out there to actually try and build something.  

i would like to say, without getting flamed that when i came into this lifestyle i was quite naive, and what little i had read and what seemed to influence a lot of my mindset was some fictional reading, and no... it wasn't Gor.  *smile*  i really didn't mind trying to start out like a fantasy novel, it was actually kind of fun at first... and then something started to change...i started having feelings.  i came with an emotional detachment at first.  i found the more i started to experience the more value i placed upon myself.  like i stated earlier in the thread, i had little esteem and little selfworth.  the more i would do, the more i began to really value myself.  i didn't care that i wasn't cared about at first, it made it easier to learn, or so i thought.  but the more i did, i actually started to value what i was being put through, and the more that i was put through, the more i started to care about the one putting me through it, it became something a bit more intimate, emotionally for me, and please realize, emotional intimacy has been something sorely missing from my life. 

Always emotionally strong for everyone around me even when i feel my weakest, i try to never let anybody see my emotional pain or anger.   Always giving kindness, always being cheerful, always trying to blend in as well and at the same time keep everything and everyone around me peaceful and happy.  i can't handle conflict or upsetting drama and work quickly to difuse such situations from occurring, even if it means putting myself in harms way.  i do this without giving a thought to myself, it's how i am wired.  again, i don't know why...it's just the way i have always survived my surroundings. i am quite simple and it truly doesn't take much to make me happy and it takes an awful lot to make me unhappy. 

Now days.... i'm working on building something that i truly hope will bring me what i desire most of all. i have settled down quite a bit in my old age and my few years of experience, *smile*  i guess i have the lifestyle maturity running in my veins finally.  i know that i want my future Master to be proud of the submissive i have become and value me all the more because of it, not in spite of it.




< Message edited by OTKkindaGirl -- 7/11/2008 10:38:17 PM >

_____________________________

~~ lil darlin' ~~
hope



(in reply to Maxwell67)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/11/2008 10:47:31 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, that's how I see it too.  For some reason people always try to characterize things by resorting to handy analogies, and that usually leads to muddled conceptions (as well as an inability to think for oneself).  Reminds me of a Miller Light commercial, ca. 1985:

"It's a right!"

"It's a gift!"

"It's a right!"

"It's a gift!"

It's not a GIFT because the dom's dominance fulfills the sub every bit as much as the sub's submission fulfills the dom.  And it's not a RIGHT because it's not enumerated in the Constitution.  A d/s relationship is not a body politic.  False metaphors all the way around.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz

I do not view submission as my right or as a gift.

I view it as a mutually satisfying relationship.  My dominance is important to a submissive who wants to be with me.  Their submission is important to me.  Together we balance one another.

(in reply to Domin8tingUrDrmz)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/11/2008 11:20:09 PM   
OTKkindaGirl


Posts: 447
Joined: 12/26/2005
From: NW Arkansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Yeah, that's how I see it too.  For some reason people always try to characterize things by resorting to handy analogies, and that usually leads to muddled conceptions (as well as an inability to think for oneself).  Reminds me of a Miller Light commercial, ca. 1985:

"It's a right!"

"It's a gift!"

"It's a right!"

"It's a gift!"



That's funny because that reminds me of a Cert's commercial in the 70's!!!  *gigglez*






< Message edited by OTKkindaGirl -- 7/11/2008 11:22:07 PM >

_____________________________

~~ lil darlin' ~~
hope



(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/12/2008 7:23:19 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		What a wonderful thread.  And OTKkindaGirl, I read your profile and you sound like a treasure.  And you're one damn fine looking woman at 99 years old.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/12/2008 7:26:44 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		"It's a Miller Light commercial!"

"It's a Certs commercial!"

quote:

ORIGINAL: OTKkindaGirl

That's funny because that reminds me of a Cert's commercial in the 70's!!!  *gigglez*

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/12/2008 7:52:55 AM   
Maxwell67


Posts: 435
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OTKkindaGirl
the more i did, i actually started to value what i was being put through, and the more that i was put through, the more i started to care about the one putting me through it, it became something a bit more intimate, emotionally for me, and please realize, emotional intimacy has been something sorely missing from my life. 

Now I get some idea of what you are seeking and why you posted this in the first place.  You know that when you submit you are opening yourself up to a situation/relationship which leaves you very vulnerable, not just physically but emotionally, and you want to know that whomever it is you are submitting to understands that your reward is this relationship is not simply in pleasing others and having your kinky desires fulfilled, but that you also need your partner to be able to open up and be emotionally vulnerable to you as well.  That is the only way you can truly experience this kind of intimacy. I think it is very wise of you to place such a high value on your ability to submit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OTKkindaGirl
Now days.... i'm working on building something that i truly hope will bring me what i desire most of all. i have settled down quite a bit in my old age and my few years of experience, *smile*  i guess i have the lifestyle maturity running in my veins finally.  i know that i want my future Master to be proud of the submissive i have become and value me all the more because of it, not in spite of it.
I have few doubts that you will be able to find this Master.  Maturity, in my experience, brings patience, and understanding.  With those tools at your disposal, you are not likely to be fooled into any LTR that will not meet your needs.  Moreover the way you describe your involvement in the lifestyle, I can see you have the courage to continue to take chances and put yourself out there, in that vulnerable position, knowing that if it does not yeild what you were hoping for you will survive it as you have so many other times.

What a prize you will be to the one who is able to claim you!

< Message edited by Maxwell67 -- 7/12/2008 7:53:18 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/12/2008 8:54:04 AM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline 		Some men are just jerks; others are great guys.  Being dominant doesn't change that.
 
candystripper

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Submission~ Your right or a gift? - 7/12/2008 8:51:29 PM   
OTKkindaGirl


Posts: 447
Joined: 12/26/2005
From: NW Arkansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67
I have few doubts that you will be able to find this Master.  Maturity, in my experience, brings patience, and understanding.  With those tools at your disposal, you are not likely to be fooled into any LTR that will not meet your needs.  Moreover the way you describe your involvement in the lifestyle, I can see you have the courage to continue to take chances and put yourself out there, in that vulnerable position, knowing that if it does not yeild what you were hoping for you will survive it as you have so many other times.

What a prize you will be to the one who is able to claim you!


Maxwell Sir,  you honor me and humble me..... thank you very much!

i keep reminding myself that all things are possible.

_____________________________

~~ lil darlin' ~~
hope



(in reply to Maxwell67)
Profile   Post #: 58
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