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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/10/2008 2:06:10 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

For a group that has a long memory of past wrongs, their short term memories seem to be at times faulty.  How would the Mujahadeen faired without the help of the "Zionist Americans" in their struggle against the Soviets?



Probably OK. The Soviet system rotted from within, not with the aid of America. Don't forget the Mujahadeen hate America just as much as they hated the Soviets, both are imperial powers in their eyes.


The Soviet system rotted (went bankrupt) because of the arms race, and over extending themselves trying to keep up with the Joneses (Americans).  Afghanistan became a completely different "war" after the introduction of US supplied weapons (stingers come to mind).  There were some in the Mujahadeen that saw America in that light, mostly fringe elements, Bin Laden being one of them. The assassination of Abdullah Yusuf Azzam in 1989 allowed Bin Laden to twist the words of Azzam into an offensive "jihad".  That is also why he (Bin Laden) killed off the other leaders like Ahmed Shah Massoud.

Just my thoughts on the matter,
Thadius

P.S.  I am not claiming that Azzam was a peaceful man, however his desire to move the jihad to Palestine, instead of Europe and India, lead to his assassination and the who's and why's of where we are at now.  (just my opinions)

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/10/2008 2:11:52 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Lighten up...They show US troops having some good clean fun and its FUNNY. They have a stressful job and the Iraqis make nice playtoys... As for recruiting terrorists, thats the idea the terrorists are muslims with no sense of humor... If the videos offend then they become terrorists and we kill them, no more terrorists LOL


...are you sure you didn't join the KKK?  In previous posts, you have personally gloried in and attempted to justify the killing of innocents in order to save the US a few bucks. In another thread i have suggested that you are closer in character to the terrorists than you think.......that assumed that you were unaware of how barbaric your ideas are on this subject. i am fast coming to the conclusion that you are totally aware of how barbarous they are. Perhaps you are the terrorist.....perhaps you are the enemy of civilised behaviour.
i sincerely hope that you are atypical of US citizens, that the majority utterly reject your inhuman attitude. If not, then the 21st century will be a bloodbath......and it will be the US with the most blood on its hands.

(in reply to DomAviator)
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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/10/2008 3:18:33 PM   
DomAviator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Lighten up...They show US troops having some good clean fun and its FUNNY. They have a stressful job and the Iraqis make nice playtoys... As for recruiting terrorists, thats the idea the terrorists are muslims with no sense of humor... If the videos offend then they become terrorists and we kill them, no more terrorists LOL


...are you sure you didn't join the KKK?  In previous posts, you have personally gloried in and attempted to justify the killing of innocents in order to save the US a few bucks. In another thread i have suggested that you are closer in character to the terrorists than you think.......that assumed that you were unaware of how barbaric your ideas are on this subject. i am fast coming to the conclusion that you are totally aware of how barbarous they are. Perhaps you are the terrorist.....perhaps you are the enemy of civilised behaviour.
i sincerely hope that you are atypical of US citizens, that the majority utterly reject your inhuman attitude. If not, then the 21st century will be a bloodbath......and it will be the US with the most blood on its hands.


Oh yes Im barbaric and unaware... Let me make it very simple - the purpose of a United States Naval Aviator is to futher US Policy by the projection of lethal air power, any time, any place in the world. We are the best of the best, the tip of the spear, and an instrument of policy. My job was to kill people and break their shit, so that the enlightened civilized people such as yourself could sit around the coffee shop in your Birkenstocks, singing folk songs and bitching about us.

Do not make the mistake of assuming however that we are stupid, ignorant, or need enlightenment from the likes of you. Rest assured that you wouldnt want to compare cv's as you would no doubt be quite humbled. The admissions ticket for everyone reporting to Pensacola was an engineering, math, or science degree with a 3.8 or better GPA. They then began weeding out only the very best from that rather distinguished pool. Those worthy of making it through OCS and API then began a flight training program that compressed mathematical, scientific, engineering, and practical expertise in excess of that found in a typical Masters Degree into a 10 month program. Unlike traditional academia however, two test failures meant we were out! Less than 1/3 of those brilliant young engineers, scientists, or mathematicians who walked through the gates of Pensacola wound up being winged. The others fell by the wayside because they just werent fucking worthy to go on.  They lacked "the right stuff" and as a result the men and women who you see in those videos - piloting those aircraft committing the "barbarism" you complain about, fall within the top 1% of all american citizens in terms of intelligence, aptitude, morality, honor, and patriotism.  

So we are indeed "atypical" of most americans because we are the elite, the creme of the crop, the hand picked chosen ones. I am however, quite typical of those fine people I served with - a standard issue Naval Aviator. So standard in fact that I even come with a part number, need one of me - just order up a 1315 ! Most americans are grateful for our sacrifices; and admire, support, and respect us however...

Your concern for my immortal soul and humanity is noted, has recieved all due consideration, and is summarily dismissed. Just remember, the sheep dont fare well unless the shepard is willing to kill wolves wherever he sees them. Ponder that as you enjoy your raspberry frappuchino and by the way son - You're very welcome... 

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 7/10/2008 3:30:06 PM >

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/10/2008 3:23:50 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
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Status: offline 		War has many casualties.

(in reply to DomAviator)
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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/10/2008 3:25:49 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

War has many casualties.


Freedom isn't free. Peace sometimes requires that we pay for it, with casualties (ours and theirs).

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/10/2008 3:34:44 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Ponder that as you enjoy your raspberry frappuchino and by the way son - You're very welcome... 


...just a few points.......firstly i don't like raspberry frappuchino, and secondly i didn't thank you for killing innocents and laughing about it.
i'll thank and respect those in the military that do their job with honour, those who see their job as a necessary evil.......However those who bring dishonour on Western society, those who glory in violence against the innocent,  need to be taken out of the military and given psychiatric help.

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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/10/2008 3:36:21 PM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
Freedom isn't free.



"What would yew dew..."

Must pull out that Team America dvd...

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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/10/2008 3:39:58 PM   
DomAviator


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Status: offline 		Fair enough, many of  us who wear the gold wings think that certain other types of people need to be taken out of the coffee shops and be given a haircut, bath, and a reality check... Different strokes for different folks.

Thadius, does the Corps have any views on haircuts and bathing foir the unwashed masses? I know its a popular Navy view...

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 7/10/2008 3:41:33 PM >

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/10/2008 3:52:14 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
Freedom isn't free.



"What would yew dew..."

Must pull out that Team America dvd...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctVI5baftFo

"I don't want to die for you, but if dying is asked of me, I will bear that cross with honor, because freedom don't come free."

"Sleep in peace tonight",
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/10/2008 3:54:41 PM   
Thadius


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Status: offline 		Whispers, the Marines are a department of the Navy....







The Mens Department.

I am a hybrid DA, my original enlistment was as an Aviation Fire Controlman (AQ) I was proud to wear the flying barstool.  That however is another story


_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/10/2008 4:07:11 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


If you watched the programme you would have seen an interview with a guy who killed a couple of Americans, the reason he was radicalized enough to go out and kill Americans was because he saw a video of the American military murdering civilians.



Much like Ted Bundy blamed porn for making him become a serial killer, and rapists and abusers routinely explain that their victims 'forced' them into criminal behavior... not terribly persuasive. 

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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/11/2008 5:14:52 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


If you watched the programme you would have seen an interview with a guy who killed a couple of Americans, the reason he was radicalized enough to go out and kill Americans was because he saw a video of the American military murdering civilians.



Much like Ted Bundy blamed porn for making him become a serial killer, and rapists and abusers routinely explain that their victims 'forced' them into criminal behavior... not terribly persuasive. 


OK so what made the American soldiers become murderers? 

Freedom?  Freedom to kill and not be held accountable? Being on an imperial jolly in the land of the fuzzy-wuzzies?

Please explain why murderers in uniform are exempt from being classed as murderers and terrorists even though they slaughtered an innocent family?

Is this a case of Americans blaming their victims for forcing them into criminal behaviour?

Reading one person on these threads that regularly laughs about killing Arabs, it doesn't seem that some military (he claims to be military but I'm not convinced) even need an excuse to kill, they just need a laugh.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/11/2008 5:18:46 AM >

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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/11/2008 5:36:51 AM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

"Sleep in peace tonight",
Thadius


You are welcome to your delusions but I hope you are never so deluded to presume yourself the defender of my freedoms. I don't brainwash as easy as some.

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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/11/2008 5:38:24 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

The Soviet system rotted (went bankrupt) because of the arms race, and over extending themselves trying to keep up with the Joneses (Americans). 



The Soviet system was rotting without the arms race. As the American commentator P.J. O'Rourke pointed as far back as the 70s, the CIA only had to send an agent on a shopping trip to Moscow to know the Russians couldn't organize a shopping trip never mind a war. The Soviets were never a danger to the West and the more official papers that get released by European governments, the more it becomes clear European governments knew it quite early on but were pressured into games of paranoia by the USA who had its own agenda. Usually empires take or earn  money from their vassal states, the Soviets paid huge sums to their vassal states because they wanted a buffer between Russia and its enemies, they had a defensive and reactive policy, every aggressive act was initially made by the USA as a way of making Russia spend more on defence. American foreign policy was being made by its military-industrial complex and not through rational politicians.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Afghanistan became a completely different "war" after the introduction of US supplied weapons (stingers come to mind).  There were some in the Mujahadeen that saw America in that light, mostly fringe elements, Bin Laden being one of them. The assassination of Abdullah Yusuf Azzam in 1989 allowed Bin Laden to twist the words of Azzam into an offensive "jihad".  That is also why he (Bin Laden) killed off the other leaders like Ahmed Shah Massoud.



America supporting terrorism or is it freedom fighters or are they just the same? Supporting terrorism always ended up by biting the hand that feeds it. First the Soviets, then the USA, there is no difference.

As Noam Chomsky pointed out, if you want to stop terrorism, stop taking part in it.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Thadius)
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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/11/2008 6:37:41 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
and it will be the US with the most blood on its hands.


       It's better to have someone else's blood on one's hands, than to be lying in a pool of your own.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/11/2008 9:18:26 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
and it will be the US with the most blood on its hands.


      It's better to have someone else's blood on one's hands, than to be lying in a pool of your own.


........those aren't the only two choices. The illusion that they are the only two choices is a real and imminent challenge to virtually everyone on the planet.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/11/2008 1:43:39 PM   
DesertRat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

OK. So what is your point?  American soldiers are rednecks?

It wouldn't surprise me if one of those Iraqi policemen could speak English and as he is laughing, he's probably thinking 'Yeah, you'll be sucking your own cock soon.'

The other thing is, these sort of videos are used for recruiting freedom fighters/terrorists, depending on which side of the fence you're on.


Lighten up...They show US troops having some good clean fun and its FUNNY. They have a stressful job and the Iraqis make nice playtoys... As for recruiting terrorists, thats the idea the terrorists are muslims with no sense of humor... If the videos offend then they become terrorists and we kill them, no more terrorists LOL Win by attriion....  The point here is that the guys who have been there and done that both on this board and on the videos arent whining and bitching about the war... Notice that myself, thadius, and the others who have actually served arent concerned with the plight of the Iraqis and can find humor in it? Notice that the troops are having a ball, and laughing their asses off... Even that marine who popped the wounded Iraqi said "It was like awesome lets do it again". The ones bitching about the war and demanding the troops come home havent been there and dont appreciate whats really going on... I know that after we bombed the piss out of them we would be high fiving, eating popcorn in the ready room, watching the gun camera films and laughing our asses off... Soldiers LOVE the work...


I'm a citizen and a taxpayer. As a GI, you work for me. You're defective. That concerns me. I don't feel like I'm really getting my money's worth. I know the military had to lower its standards to (try to) fill its ranks, but surely they can do better than what I see here.

Alternatively...maybe the good ones are the "silent majority". The ones doing their jobs with dignity and not drooling and coming in their diapers at the thought of violence.

Whichever case is true, there appears to be a need for some quality control.

Bob

_____________________________

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro--Hunter S. Thompson
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide!--Chief Dead St. Knockout, 1933, Liverpool
Damn the crops. I'll only find peace at the end of a rope.--Winston Van Loo, 1911

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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/11/2008 1:53:56 PM   
NeedingMore220


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat
I'm a citizen and a taxpayer. As a GI, you work for me. You're defective. That concerns me. I don't feel like I'm really getting my money's worth. I know the military had to lower its standards to (try to) fill its ranks, but surely they can do better than what I see here.

Alternatively...maybe the good ones are the "silent majority". The ones doing their jobs with dignity and not drooling and coming in their diapers at the thought of violence.


Alternatively ... there are people who are willing to step up and do the job that they signed up for, as ordered by their commanders.  I always figure that if I'm not willing to step up and do it, who am I to criticize the manner in which it's done?  Now ... take that with a grain of salt.  I don't always agree with what the government does, by any means.  Nor do I really enjoy the 'boys will be boys' kinda chatter, but it's unrealistic to think it doesn't go on and if it's how they handle what it is they are asked to do, then so be it.  Who am I to criticize.

Even when I'm volunteering as the friggin' PTA president at my kids' schools or running an athletic organization ... I take shit because someone always has something to complain about whether it's how the plants are set in the front of school or some other perceived issue - anyone who steps up to do anything in this world takes shit for taking the responsibility on and doing it.  And usually it's the people who don't step forward to do their part who do the loudest squawking. 

(in reply to DesertRat)
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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/11/2008 1:58:58 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

"Sleep in peace tonight",
Thadius


You are welcome to your delusions but I hope you are never so deluded to presume yourself the defender of my freedoms. I don't brainwash as easy as some.


Nope, I don't have such delusions... I am not the man standing on the wall.  I do however take offense to the fact that you think it is brainwashing to believe those men and women in harms way are doing it for that exact reason.

You of course have the right to your opinions and even to express them, but I would suggest that perhaps some of those opinions are a bit deluded.

I am all for the use of diplomacy, but sometimes aggressive negotiations are the only way to achieve understanding.



_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/11/2008 2:32:03 PM   
DomAviator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

I'm a citizen and a taxpayer. As a GI, you work for me. You're defective. That concerns me. I don't feel like I'm really getting my money's worth. I know the military had to lower its standards to (try to) fill its ranks, but surely they can do better than what I see here.

Alternatively...maybe the good ones are the "silent majority". The ones doing their jobs with dignity and not drooling and coming in their diapers at the thought of violence.

Whichever case is true, there appears to be a need for some quality control.

Bob


Sorry to burst your bubble but your taxes didnt do much to fund me... Youre entire annual household income, much less the taxes you pay, wouldnt purchase one load of ordnance for one of my strikes. A basic JDAM tail kit has a unit cost in excess of $21,000 per bomb - depending what its attached to the total weapon cost is sometimes as much as $70,000 per unit ... The aircraft itself is $41,000,000 Make no mistake, Joe Anybody doesnt pay the taxes to fund the military, the corporations you work for do...  You will never earn enough in your life to pay enough taxes to keep even one F/A-18 flying for a year.  The last squadron I was in had 36 officers and 257 enlisted men.... Your taxes wouldnt fund our coffee and toilet paper bill.

I work for you - thats a fucking laugh! I paid OUT OF MY OWN POCKET over $2000 in uniform and other expenses at Pensacola. Thats right, when you report to Officer Candidate School - come with cash or a checkbook - theres a lot of shit to buy! Oh yeah, another thing - every month I had to settle up my wardroom bill because as an officer I paid for my meals. Im not even going to get into the gory details of this - but during the Clinton years the pay was so fucking bad that many military families qualified for food stamps! So big spender - dig a little deeper and how about forgoing your tax refund check so as to give your "employees" a little extra cash? LMFAO You were such a good fucking boss that a couple of times a month we would pass a cover in the wardroom so that the squadron welfare officer would be able to go buy shoes that didnt have holes in them and maybe some fucking food for an enlisted families kids. We weren't rolling in the dough either, but we did a little better than the enlisted - albeit not NEARLY what we could have gotten in the civilian world with our college degrees. However, there is a reason why an aviators drink of choice is a fucking TWELVE DOLLAR burbon from Conneticut.  Thank God that George Bush undid that and now pays military personell a living wage because the benovolant democrats sure fucked the military up the ass without so much as a reach around. 

Nonetheless. you werent my boss... You were the little kid who came in the candy store with his nickle to buy one gummy fish. I was the store clerk who was kind enough to keep the bullies from beating the piss out of you and taking your gummy fish away. LOL There is "importance" and "impotence" they sound similar but have different meanings - I suggest you look at your tax return and then the DOD budget to decide what category you fall under when it comes to us "working for you".

(in reply to DesertRat)
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