Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!!


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/11/2008 2:44:42 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Joe Anybody doesnt pay the taxes to fund the military, the corporations you work for do...  


...so are you suggesting that the armed services don't work for the US citizenry but for US corporations? Would love to see that bit of the US constitution........

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/11/2008 2:53:04 PM   
DesertRat


Posts: 2774
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedingMore220
Alternatively ... there are people who are willing to step up and do the job that they signed up for, as ordered by their commanders.  I always figure that if I'm not willing to step up and do it, who am I to criticize the manner in which it's done?

...Who am I to criticize...

Even when I'm volunteering as the friggin' PTA president at my kids' schools or running an athletic organization ... I take shit because someone always has something to complain about...

...anyone who steps up to do anything in this world takes shit for taking the responsibility on and doing it.  And usually it's the people who don't step forward to do their part who do the loudest squawking... 


You know nothing about me, but I do shoulder my own load and always have. If you have difficulties dealing with the towering responsibilities of the PTA presidency, you should let someone else step up rather than whine about it. 

As for the military, don't ever make the mistake of thinking we work for them. Yes, we owe them some gratitude...most of 'em, anyway...but it serves no one if we overlook shoddy performance. I don't need anyone's permission to complain. I have that right. I see some defective modules here.

Bob

_____________________________

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro--Hunter S. Thompson
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide!--Chief Dead St. Knockout, 1933, Liverpool
Damn the crops. I'll only find peace at the end of a rope.--Winston Van Loo, 1911

(in reply to NeedingMore220)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/11/2008 2:57:50 PM   
Moloch


Posts: 1090
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:


...so are you suggesting that the armed services don't work for the US citizenry but for US corporations? Would love to see that bit of the US constitution........
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Joe Anybody doesnt pay the taxes to fund the military, the corporations you work for do...  


...so are you suggesting that the armed services don't work for the US citizenry but for US corporations? Would love to see that bit of the US constitution........


He is saying that the corporations are footing the bill due to large corporate taxes.





(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/11/2008 2:58:08 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Joe Anybody doesnt pay the taxes to fund the military, the corporations you work for do...  


...so are you suggesting that the armed services don't work for the US citizenry but for US corporations? Would love to see that bit of the US constitution........


The US military works for the PRESIDENT not Joe Taxpayer. He said he "wasnt getting his moneys worth." He got his moneys worth when I wiped my ass and took a piss because his taxes funded our toilet paper and  SOME of our office coffee... (But not the coffee in the officers wardroom! Which we paid for!) 

People who pull this "Im a taxpayer your work for me, I pay your salary shit" are pathetic in that they have no clue of how truly insignifigant their contribution is... Its not just the military its all civil servants... I have had someone pull the "Im a taxpayer I'll have your job" shit when I was on a fire call. I told him "Listen you ignorant motherfucker, Im a volunteer I get a baseball cap, a couple of T-shirts and one dinner a month. Suck my volunteer cock Mr Taxpayer and then get the fuck  back on the other side of the fireline tape". BrittneyLee starts teaching school this fall - shes going to get the "Im a tax payer" shit too. Well on my 4680 sq foot waterfront home I pay just over $1200 a year on school taxes. That means that my contribution, which is more than most, will be paying 1/35th of the annual salary of ONE newly hired fresh out of college this may teacher. Hardly makes me a major stakeholder does it??? Certainly doesnt give me any weight to fling around about "paying her salary, getting my money's worth, or her working for me"...

For some strange reason those who cry "Im a tax payer, you work for me" the loudest generally pay so little that they get refunds and qualify for the EIC. I saw it with my ex-wife, she was also a teacher and the parents who bitched the loudest reminding her that they pay her salary were the ones of the kids who got the free fucking lunch.

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 7/11/2008 3:07:47 PM >

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/11/2008 3:01:49 PM   
DesertRat


Posts: 2774
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
I work for you - thats a fucking laugh!...

Nonetheless. you werent my boss... You were the little kid who came in the candy store with his nickle to buy one gummy fish. I was the store clerk who was kind enough to keep the bullies from beating the piss out of you and taking your gummy fish away. LOL There is "importance" and "impotence" they sound similar but have different meanings - I suggest you look at your tax return and then the DOD budget to decide what category you fall under when it comes to us "working for you".


These are precisely the sounds a component makes when it fails. Kind of a squeaky whine...or maybe a whiney squeak. The defective module needs to be replaced before it degrades the performance of the rest of the system.

Bob  

_____________________________

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro--Hunter S. Thompson
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide!--Chief Dead St. Knockout, 1933, Liverpool
Damn the crops. I'll only find peace at the end of a rope.--Winston Van Loo, 1911

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/11/2008 3:03:37 PM   
Moloch


Posts: 1090
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline 		I like this thread, puts sand in liberal vagina and causes whining....

(in reply to DesertRat)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/11/2008 4:17:31 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

People who pull this "Im a taxpayer your work for me, I pay your salary shit" are pathetic



If you are the standard American airman I'm not surprised that this sort of thing happens http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/11/afghanistan.usa and I don't think it was a misfired weapon or an accident if you are the type of man America puts in charge of deadly weapons, after reading your posts, I tend towards thinking it is incompetence.

Though to be honest, I'm still not convinced a developed nation would put someone with your attitude on the front line, you'd be more danger to your comrades than to the enemy.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/11/2008 4:31:47 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

The defective module needs to be replaced before it degrades the performance of the rest of the system.



Bingo.

_____________________________



(in reply to DesertRat)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/11/2008 5:26:59 PM   
NeedingMore220


Posts: 615
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat
You know nothing about me, but I do shoulder my own load and always have. If you have difficulties dealing with the towering responsibilities of the PTA presidency, you should let someone else step up rather than whine about it. 

As for the military, don't ever make the mistake of thinking we work for them. Yes, we owe them some gratitude...most of 'em, anyway...but it serves no one if we overlook shoddy performance. I don't need anyone's permission to complain. I have that right. I see some defective modules here.


As you stated above ... you know nothing about me either.  You choose to belittle my volunteerism, feel free.  I happen to find it rewarding and fulfilling, but it's not for everyone.  I was merely pointing out that those who complain loudest usually are the ones sitting on their hands.  But yes, you have the right to complain.  

< Message edited by NeedingMore220 -- 7/11/2008 5:29:21 PM >

(in reply to DesertRat)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/12/2008 12:11:32 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

People who pull this "Im a taxpayer your work for me, I pay your salary shit" are pathetic



If you are the standard American airman I'm not surprised that this sort of thing happens http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/11/afghanistan.usa and I don't think it was a misfired weapon or an accident if you are the type of man America puts in charge of deadly weapons, after reading your posts, I tend towards thinking it is incompetence.

Though to be honest, I'm still not convinced a developed nation would put someone with your attitude on the front line, you'd be more danger to your comrades than to the enemy.

Oh things like that dont happen due to incompetence or an accident. Fact is there was probably somebody at that wedding they wanted dead - maybe the brides third couin - so they took out the whole fucking thing... Shit happens.Its just a public relations nightmare to say yeah we bombed the wedding cause we needed to kill one guy there so we said fuck the collateral damage... Either that or the pilots were so hyped up on go pills that somebody lit a cigarette and he called it a muzzle flash and laid it in. I can see that happening too, as the go pills made me pretty jumpy.

As for what you believe or dont believe about me I simply dont care... know why ?  Juis fokken onnosel dat jy moeder pose cir guurytuig reisengeld en steeds gellop tuis. Juis n abosiebaba dat gerkruio uit die stuk osback harif.  That about cover it for ya? Now, with that said dont bother sending me any more of your nasty cmails either, I dont even read them cause Gesels met die verdraagde es n mors van tyd en ju eenvooudig en kakhauskriek...

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 7/12/2008 12:15:35 AM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/12/2008 12:24:58 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


If you are the standard American airman I'm not surprised that this sort of thing happens http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/11/afghanistan.usa and I don't think it was a misfired weapon or an accident if you are the type of man America puts in charge of deadly weapons, after reading your posts, I tend towards thinking it is incompetence.

Though to be honest, I'm still not convinced a developed nation would put someone with your attitude on the front line, you'd be more danger to your comrades than to the enemy.


Let's look at the details of the story you posted...

quote:

Fighter aircraft attacked a group of militants near the village of Kacu in the eastern Nuristan province, but one missile went off course and hit the wedding party, said the provincial police chief spokesman, Ghafor Khan.

Sounds to me like equipment failure, not pilot error.  While our missiles are pretty damn good, they aren't perfect.

quote:


The UN said last month that nearly 700 Afghan civilians had lost their lives this year - about two-thirds in militant attacks and about 255 in military operations.

It would seem that we are doing collateral damage than the militants, however I would guess that the militants see the civilians as valid targets.  Unfortunately some civilians are going to die, especially when they are being used as human shields.

Not making any judgements, just pointing out that if you want to get on a pedestal and proclaim superiority, don't be surprised if some folks rock the pedestal.  While some Aviators get the same god complex as Doctors, I would suggest that they don't intentionally do harm.

Just my opinions,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/12/2008 3:16:08 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Nope, I don't have such delusions... I am not the man standing on the wall.  I do however take offense to the fact that you think it is brainwashing to believe those men and women in harms way are doing it for that exact reason.


I don't want to get into a typical CM back and forth on this, Thadius I'll be brief.  I have had family in, I have a friend who still is - though I don't know where.  They don't talk about the jingoistic claptrap; they see it for what it is and pity those who don't. 

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/12/2008 6:15:12 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


If you are the standard American airman I'm not surprised that this sort of thing happens http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/11/afghanistan.usa and I don't think it was a misfired weapon or an accident if you are the type of man America puts in charge of deadly weapons, after reading your posts, I tend towards thinking it is incompetence.

Though to be honest, I'm still not convinced a developed nation would put someone with your attitude on the front line, you'd be more danger to your comrades than to the enemy.


Let's look at the details of the story you posted...

quote:

Fighter aircraft attacked a group of militants near the village of Kacu in the eastern Nuristan province, but one missile went off course and hit the wedding party, said the provincial police chief spokesman, Ghafor Khan.

Sounds to me like equipment failure, not pilot error.  While our missiles are pretty damn good, they aren't perfect.

quote:


The UN said last month that nearly 700 Afghan civilians had lost their lives this year - about two-thirds in militant attacks and about 255 in military operations.

It would seem that we are doing collateral damage than the militants, however I would guess that the militants see the civilians as valid targets.  Unfortunately some civilians are going to die, especially when they are being used as human shields.

Not making any judgements, just pointing out that if you want to get on a pedestal and proclaim superiority, don't be surprised if some folks rock the pedestal.  While some Aviators get the same god complex as Doctors, I would suggest that they don't intentionally do harm.

Just my opinions,
Thadius


If you read my post I was referring to DA rather than the general competence of US pilots. I don't buy his boasting over deaths, I'm not sure he's ever been in harm's way, maybe he has, maybe he is part of the 1% of humans that are psychopathic but maybe he is typical of the US standard of airmen, I don't know. What I do know, if he is the standard of US military and he claims to be an officier leading men, I am not surprised at the high total of innocent civilians deaths in both Iraq and Afghanistan caused through American forces as opposed to Taliban forces. Accidents happen in war but there is a difference between trying to avoid needless death and being completely wreckless and there has been enough inflight videos released to show that maybe DA is typical, that is frightening.

Though I don't talk about it, I do have some experience.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/12/2008 10:59:39 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver



If you read my post I was referring to DA rather than the general competence of US pilots. (snip)   Accidents happen in war but there is a difference between trying to avoid needless death and being completely wreckless and there has been enough inflight videos released to show that maybe DA is typical, that is frightening.

Though I don't talk about it, I do have some experience.


You start out by saying you are not talking about anybody except DA, and then carry on to point out that perhaps he is typical, which I think is more in line with your thinking anyways.  To be a great combat pilot, one has to ride that thin edge between wreckless and cautious, one has to know the envelope of the bird they are flying and be willing to push the seams a tad bit further.  I am very glad that we have pilots that are willing to risk their lives everytime they strap in.  Hell there may even be a few of them that cross the line, but I know they will be held accountable for their actions.  As an example look what happened to the 2 that took out that gondola. In-flight videos and weapons usage is looked at very closely, and in the case of a Naval Aviator, you can bet a CAG will be putting his foot up somebody's ass that goes off the reservation.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/12/2008 12:15:42 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

in the case of a Naval Aviator, you can bet a CAG will be putting his foot up somebody's ass that goes off the reservation.


Thadius, as usual you are right. However, I would like to point out that where the boundries of the reservation are is defined in the ready room, not in the media or by the bleeding hearts. It is certainly more expedient to tell a press conference "whoops we goofed and a weapon strayed from its intended target" than to say "We needed Abdul Mohammed El Hadji" so we took him out at his neices wedding so we bombed it anyway as it was the only opportunity to present itself"... I mean lets be real here, if Osama Bin Laden was touring the mosque at the Tora Bora Childrens Hospital and that was the only chance we had to take him- you know as well as I do that the strike would be authorized. The boundries of the reservation are set before the strike, the tuesday morning quarterbackig in the media is handled by PR people. Rememeber when we bombed the reseidential neighborhood when we thought Saddam was in a house there? In the 1991 Gulf War Saddam used civilians as shields for legitimate military targets thinking that it would stop us, and he was wrong. We stay on the reservation but if the orders are "take out that SAM site in the playground of the elementary schoool or neutralize the attack helicopters on the hospital helipad - well then those orders have to be followed and shit happens. Colatteral damage is to be expected in such situations and is acceptable... I NEVER said we picked out own targets and went out looking for civilians... However, we do have "fire if fired upon" rules of engagement and a great many of these weddings have been hit because of assholes firing AK's into the air... If they want to live they better start throwing rice or releasing doves, because firing into the air when there are military aircraft overhead will get the wedding bombed. Period. - whether the little dutchboi lilkes it or not. If he really cares about them, maybe he should go there and teach them to throw rice instead of firing weapons skyward...  

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/12/2008 12:28:56 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		DA,

That is all I was trying to point out, some people have seemed to get the idea that you or any other Aviator makes the calls on what is a target.  It also is never going to become a policy to share intel over the nightly news.  There is plenty of oversight to keep an eye on whether a member of the military is "kill crazy" and acting outside of the chain of command.  It is was way above my paygrade to know if a particular missile was intentional or just a malfunction.

Then again I have been known to recommend "removing and replacing the loose nut between the headset" as a corrective action to fix certain avionics issues.  The overly sensitive low flight hour types, never saw it as humerous, but thank god I had a great DivO that did.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/12/2008 1:02:37 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Your base instinct and you being prone to get a boner at the sight of a gun ejaculating sort of confirms the rest of the world's opinion of Americans and the reason why so much of the world is unsafe for Americans. If I was your compatriot I would be disgusted with your attitude.


Then the rest of the world must be pretty fucking stupid, if one guy getting a boner gives them an opinion about the other 276 million.  

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/12/2008 1:07:34 PM   
Moloch


Posts: 1090
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline 		LOL!!!  Nobody wants those dumb Americans around, untill it comes time to save your sorry ass from Germans again... and again...

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/12/2008 1:15:06 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline 		What I get a kick out of is they simply dont grasp that war is unpleasant and orders must be followed. Now Im gonna post this, and watch them blame it on ME somehow even though I was a pilot aboard a carrier and never drove a tank in my life...LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV7aO8oLAsg 

However, if you read the text that accompanies it, you will see that this is how they dealt with a looter. Maybe we should have tried this approach after Katrina.

Or for instance here we have some assholes who were firing from a mosque with a predictable outcome http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEJUUfUjYxQ  Notice the soldiers arent exactly crying over the outcome.

This wasnt me either.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TQdgyEapvw  I never struck a sheep in my life, though I did have a strike against some Camels back in 91... LOL

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 7/12/2008 1:25:09 PM >

(in reply to Moloch)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! - 7/12/2008 1:15:31 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Oh, but wait ... the Soviets actually defeated the Germans, which conveniently avoids the notion that had in not been for the Americans and other European allies, the Soviets likely would have taken and kept the whole mess for themselves.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 7/12/2008 1:16:31 PM >

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to Moloch)
Profile   Post #: 80
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094