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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 4:06:20 AM   
naturalsin


Posts: 92
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline 		every person on earth bleeds the same color. at.  racism

< Message edited by naturalsin -- 7/10/2008 4:07:14 AM >

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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 4:24:46 AM   
N4SDChastity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

quote:

Inconvenient truths are still, by definition, truths.  Stating historical facts in no way takes away from the realities or the need to bring other cultures into mondernist thinking.  It just make your high-horse a little less so.  Your soap-box one slat shorter.  Continue with your righteous indignation, and I will proudly stand beside you and exhort just as loudly as you, but I will do it with my feet firmly planted on the ground.


Dude, seriously - take the stick out its got to hurt... I dont even know which of my posts you were replying to as you didnt cite it.

However if it was the first one - other religions do not practice honor killing. If they do they need to do it somewhere other than here because we wont tolerate it and have a needle waiting for those who wont adapt to US rather than Islamic law.

If it was the second one - the man specifically requested in another thread to have it pointed out whenever he said something likely to reduce his appeal to the ladies. It wasnt an attack, he asked to have it pointed out when he would  say something to reduce his marketability.

Incidentally, my high horse NEVER shrinks - I have ego and arrogance to spare and more growing by the minute. LOL


Your arrogance undoubtedly ABOUNDS, if you assume my post was directed AT you.  I am certain you see yourself as the only poster worthy of someone commenting on, to be sure, and the only one whose comments are worthy of being quoted but, rest assured, I know how to utilize the quote button, when I need to.  Just as sure as I am able to remember historical references to ostracization and murder in religions other than the one currently under discussion, for reasons similiar to those under discussion.

May I also suggest that the rareified air up there, on your horse so precariously purched upon its soapbox, may be getting to you because this:
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
~ If they do they need to do it somewhere other than here because we wont tolerate it and have a needle waiting for those who wont adapt to US rather than Islamic law.



...makes NO SENSE whatsoever.  Put the bottle down and back carefully away from the keyboard, PLEASE!  When you are again sober, perhaps you will remember where the comma-key is and render to us readable sentences, again.

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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 5:02:54 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

You have far more in common with terrorists than you think. You are, in a very real sense, their ally. Without people like yourself, those who seem to revel in division and violence, the threat of terrorism would be enormously reduced.
Moderates, like myself, who want to see an end to violence on both sides are the enemy of both Islamic radicals and Christian radicals alike.



Fantastic post, philo.

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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 5:07:29 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Wow. Batting zero for two here Rich, when it comes to non-issue threads. But playing the racism card, that's sure to generate plenty more heat and smoke than the ghost of socialism in the HealthScare thread.  You might just get away with a walk on this one... Pretty crafty.

So WTF exactly does Multiculturalism, as a formal or informal concept, have to do with a criminal act by man claiming his culture allows him to commit the murder of his children (or of anyone, for that matter)? Where, in this case, does Multiculturalism justify this mans actions? In what way has it enabled him or defended him? Which Multiculturalists are on record excusing his actions or the actions of others like him?

Nowhere? No body? None. Nothing? (again)

Yeah! Right there in the good old US of A - people from all over the  world, and some of them are fucked up but most of them are pretty good folks just trying to find a better life. So what's your solution to the non problem of Multiculturalism, Rich?

What's your thesis? What's precisely is this Multiculturalism at whose feet you lay this heinous crime? Do you even have a point or are you just sending out sparks hoping something will catch?


Z.



Uhhhh?............. Did You read the links?  It sure sounded to me like he was being defended on the basis of culture.

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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 5:11:19 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Amen Heritic... The favorite liberal argument - any time we are offended by something contrary to civilized behavior or good social order toss out the "racist card". In another thread I was repeatedly called a bigot racist etc for daring to refer to a person arrested, tried, convicted, and imprisoned for the bombing and arson of an admitted 221 govt buildings a criminal...


And did you manage to recover from that awful treatment or did you spend the night crying into your pillow?

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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 5:17:53 AM   
DomAviator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Amen Heritic... The favorite liberal argument - any time we are offended by something contrary to civilized behavior or good social order toss out the "racist card". In another thread I was repeatedly called a bigot racist etc for daring to refer to a person arrested, tried, convicted, and imprisoned for the bombing and arson of an admitted 221 govt buildings a criminal...


And did you manage to recover from that awful treatment or did you spend the night crying into your pillow?


I could give a rats ass... There are worse things to be referred to as so they can call me whatever they want. (Except a Democrat!)  It is entertaining as hell though how any disagreement with "PC" automatically invokes the race card though...

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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 5:31:21 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Amen Heritic... The favorite liberal argument - any time we are offended by something contrary to civilized behavior or good social order toss out the "racist card". In another thread I was repeatedly called a bigot racist etc for daring to refer to a person arrested, tried, convicted, and imprisoned for the bombing and arson of an admitted 221 govt buildings a criminal...


And did you manage to recover from that awful treatment or did you spend the night crying into your pillow?


I could give a rats ass... There are worse things to be referred to as so they can call me whatever they want. (Except a Democrat!)  It is entertaining as hell though how any disagreement with "PC" automatically invokes the race card though...


As much as it truly pains me to agree with a conservative Republican, the PC nonsense and racism charges on here do get out of hand.

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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 6:05:29 AM   
HeavansKeeper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...are you opposed to multiculturalism? If so, why?


I missed the flame wave everyone else is surfing, so I'll jump in here.

I'm not opposed to multiculturalism, but I am against the "It's a cultural difference..." defense.  This an an example of "cultural differences" that do not excuse atrocities.  When tolerance of other people's beliefs goes too far, this happens.  Yes, the government slams its foot down and says "That was too much.  Plain and clear, no questions asked, waaaay too much of your own 'cultural difference'." But I think its too late for her, no?

This is rarely an issue with honor killings or FGM, as those are considered indefensible in the sane world, but the argument comes up for kids dropping out of school to work or have children, waiting until a certain predescribed age to have sex, and irrational (here meaning "not based on reasoning") beliefs that are forced around.

Without twisting the thread too much, I wanted to get that out.  From what I see here, no one has even come close to the "It's a cultural difference" defense, and I thank you all.. for keeping my blood pressure normal.

Edit to add:

A reason to defend an action should be based on reasoning.  Applying generalizable principles and all that jazz.  Appealing to authority is universally considered illogical, whether that authority be police, the judge, your dad, your culture, your pastor, your big sister...

The reason the "cultural difference" defense is wrong is because if allowed it would permit any act that violates basic human rights, so long as there's some country in the world full of fuck-ups who do not value basic human rights.  Quod erat demonstrandum (man, I've been waiting to whip out that one for a while...) wrong.

< Message edited by HeavansKeeper -- 7/10/2008 6:10:32 AM >

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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 7:12:09 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
Moderates, like myself,



       Phil, I have to ask...  If you are a moderate, who exactly is a leftist? 

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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 7:45:01 AM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...are you opposed to multiculturalism? If so, why?


Philosophy, true and equal multiculturalism is impossible in today's world.

Would you allow people that live in the United States to kill female infants on the grounds they were not born male?  Do you feel that the US Justice system should allow Honor killings? 

There are countless other cultural traditions that are not close to being part of the modern world, except in the few countries that practice them.

This topic had me scrambling for old philosophy texts just to prove the point it was not racially based but cultural.

I would oppose any change in the Legal Code of the United States that would allow such cultural practices as honor killings.

quote:

naturalsin
every person on earth bleeds the same color. at.  racism


Again, where is there a mention of racism in this topic?  Cultural traditions does not equate to race, nor does religious beliefs.

Culture (from the Latin cultura stemming from colere, meaning "to cultivate,") generally refers to patterns of human activity and the symbolic structures that give such activities significance and importance. Cultures can be "understood as systems of symbols and meanings that even their creators contest, that lack fixed boundaries, that are constantly in flux, and that interact and compete with one another"
race or racial group into usually refers to the concept of dividing humanspopulations or groups on the basis of various sets of characteristics.  The most widely used human racial categories are based on visible traits (especially skin color, cranial and or facial features hair texture), and self-identification.

Please note the difference in definitions.  Any anthropologist would throw the racial argument out of this discussion as irrelevant.

What is relevant is the cultural differences, and even though the US will claim to be multicultural, there is no way that the country truly can be.

Case in point, if the United States was truly multicultural, then it would be perfectly legal for the various Native American nations to act on the tradition of blood feud or blood enemies, and therefore  kill everyone of European descent in the United States, based strictly on the cultural traditions of the people.

Then there is the cultural differences between different groups of Europeans.  Irish Catholics have a bit of a conflict with non Irish Catholics, for example.  The simple fact that too many cultures have traditional enemies, the entire country would be a war zone.  For that matter the entire world would be.

Nor could the United States go to a monoculturalism based policy, simply on constitutional grounds.  There has to be a balance. 

Personally, I would prefer a balance where a girl cannot be killed by her own father on the ground of honor, or any other reason.

As for racism, well considering there are few racially pure people in this country, (I would hazard a guess that if someone did a genealogical  check on the members of the various white supremest groups every member would have a trace of native american blood, or at least one other non white race in there) the whole racially pure argument is as dumb and ignorant as trying to fly to the moon by flapping your arms.







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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 9:32:05 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietPeppermint

....

That link, http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE7D81231F93BA15753C1A967958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1, made me feel physically sick.


&it is very hard for me ever to feel physically sick.





I don't see a matter of multiculturalism, it's a matter of unacceptable violations of human rights.



I agree, pretty abominable yet they claim it is "part of their religion."
You know, if "multi-culturalism" is such a "good" thing then why aren't Japan, China, India, Russia and a lot of other countries doing it as well?
We seem to have a cadre of people in the U.S. who "embrace" "Multiculturalism" for no reason.
You'd think they'd be a little more discriminating (sic) about which "cultures" they "embrace."
The thing is they try to push (their) beliefs on everyone else as well.
They want to "buy the world a coke" on my and your arm.
I guess that the axiom of "too much of anything isn't good" escapes them.
And, isn't "multi-culturalism" in direct conflict with the "melting pot" theory?
There are many "cultures" that I don't like and don't want in my country.
That is (my) belief.
I'm sure that the fucking pinheads who believe in "multi-culturalism" would consider me A. predjudiced, B. racist, C. intolerant, D fill in the blank.
But, it is my opinion that it is time to stand up to these "politically correct goosesteppers" and just say "no" to the fucking twaddle that they are trying to spoon feed to people.
They are nothing more than "second cousins" to senator Joe McCarthy.

P.S. and that comes from a social  "liberal",  a political "moderate", and fiscal "conservative.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 7/10/2008 9:42:10 AM >

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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 11:34:24 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY



I'm all for cultural toleration.

Multiculturalism as practiced in much of the West is equal to saying that Western cultural is unworthy, unfortunate, and less than any other culture.




........hmmm, perhaps i ought to have tried to define 'multiculturalism', heh. What you define as 'cultural tolerance' is, broadly, what i define as 'multiculturalism'. What you define as 'multiculturalism' is what i define as 'stupid'. Semantics often are the real problem in debates such as this.

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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 11:36:48 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
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Status: offline 		People who live under our laws need to respect them.
 
Culture is no excuse.

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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 11:38:21 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
Moderates, like myself,



      Phil, I have to ask...  If you are a moderate, who exactly is a leftist? 


...on these boards? Meatcleaver.

However, you bring up an intriguing point. Where, exactly, is the middle ground? i would suggest that many of us honestly believe that we are the middle ground. Perhaps i could offer this thought.......Level and i are both moderates, Level is a right leaning moderate and i am a left leaning moderate. Cyberdude is more definitely right wing, Meatcleaver is more definitely left wing.
The real difference is how we listen and respond to those who disagree with us.

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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 2:46:37 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		The many "multicultural" European societies is enough "multiculturalism" for me, thankyou very much.And only mostly Western Europe.
So I guess you could call me "Euro-Centric."
I don't think living in a tower of babel is a "good" thing.
It's just natural that people want to associate with people who are similar to themselves and there's nothing "wrong" with that.
That's why we're all in Collarme.com now isn't it?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 7/10/2008 2:48:15 PM >

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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 3:04:05 PM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Popeye, how do you define Burl Ives shooting his son, Chuck Connors, for disgracing him in the duel scene in The Big Country?

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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 3:58:25 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Reality, I don't.
We have enough of our own problems here than to be taking on anyone else's problems.

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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 5:02:45 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
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Status: offline 		Rashid should be tried and convicted for murder.  He has no excuse for the killing of his daughter.
 
Honor killings and the like are a world wide problem, according to  the United Nations Commission on Human Rights and Amnesty International.

Thousands of Women Killed for Family "Honor"

Hillary Mayell
for National Geographic News
February 12, 2002 
Reports submitted to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights show that honor killings have occurred in Bangladesh, Great Britain, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey, and Uganda. In countries not submitting reports to the UN, the practice was condoned under the rule of the fundamentalist Taliban government in Afghanistan, and has been reported in Iraq and Iran.

But while honor killings have elicited considerable attention and outrage, human rights activists argue that they should be regarded as part of a much larger problem of violence against women.

[Note: two issues in paragraph below (1) "bride burning" or killing one's wife or daughter in-law because of insufficient dowry, and (2) husbands killing wives because of suspected infidelity and not being harshly punished if caught. ]

In India, for example, more than 5,000 brides die annually because their dowries are considered insufficient, according to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF). Crimes of passion, which are treated extremely leniently in Latin America, are the same thing with a different name, some rights advocates say.

"In countries where Islam is practiced, they're called honor killings, but dowry deaths and so-called crimes of passion have a similar dynamic in that the women are killed by male family members and the crimes are perceived as excusable or understandable," said Widney Brown, advocacy director for Human Rights Watch.

The practice, she said, "goes across cultures and across religions."

http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/212/honor-killing.htm

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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 6:01:07 PM   
N4SDChastity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

People who live under our laws need to respect them.
 
Culture is no excuse.


Succinct and to the point

everything else is rhetoric

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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/10/2008 6:04:32 PM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
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Status: offline 		edited to add Fast Reply~
http://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=9e9d9c26-3329-4699-a1ec-dbe58671b1ac&rss=68 kids parents allow him to die of UTI...prayer instead of treatment(they killed him)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121322824482066211.html?mod=2_1566_leftbox  11-yr old girl dies of diabtes parents prayed for her and allowed her to die


http://www.local6.com/health/16843856/detail.html?rss=orlpn&psp=news  Christian faith healer claims to raise up the dead heal cancer

http://gleninnes.yourguide.com.au/news/opinion/editorial/general/rise-up-secularists-and-take-a-stand-against-bigotry/803021.aspx  Fundamentalist Christians commit bogoted acts against secularists

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/07/03/Orthodox_Jews_protest_autopsy/UPI- 47051215121464/ Jewish woman found strangled in her home....Orthodox  leaders oppose autopsy

http://www.jewishjournal.com/opinion/article/beta_israel_in_ethiopia_face_uncertain_future_on_aliyah_20080702/  Ethiopian Jews denied equal immigration rights in Israel

my point is...there are nutjobs and zealots in all faiths...Islam doesn't have the monopoly on this.  No, it's not racist to think so...it's more xenophobia, prejudice or ignorance.  But as pointed out earlier in this thread, there is no Islamic "race"...so racism, definately not the right label in this case.

< Message edited by lronitulstahp -- 7/10/2008 6:11:07 PM >

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