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RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/11/2008 9:41:34 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...interesting. A careful read of my posting history ought to lead an impartial observer that my ideal society is a mixed economy. One where infrastructure is nationalised, but industry is free to compete in areas where competition is healthy.
This differentiates me from socialists who see such a society as a staging point for a wholly nationalised society, and also differentiates me those who want nothing at all run by a government. If we posit a scale with pure communism at one end and zero government at the other, my position is more or less in the middle.
Is it possible that, because you apparently wish to see virtually nothing run by a government, you see anyone who wants a social structure government-run as a socialist? This is what i mean when i wrote about how we listen and respond. To use a metapor.....if we are in the West of a country, everyone else is East. If we are in the East of a country everyone else is West. A communist sees all who disagree as capitalists, a capitalist see all who disagree as communists. However, those in the middle of the country can see East and West in their proper contexts.

          Interesting indeed, Phil. There are a great many legitimate functions of government, and I think you may be drifting into pot-kettle-black territory in the positions you percieve me occupying. It is a question of personal attitude towards how we balance these things. You see the free market as something to restrict to the areas you deem "healthy," I see government as something to be allowed to do only those things the market cannot handle. Even then, I think the government should sub-contract to agencies subject to the forces of competition and outside oversight, whenever possible/practical/ethical.

         It really comes down to one's basic view of government, and how much control it should have over individuals, and how much impact in their day-to-day lives. We are probably very close in our ideas of what would work best on many subjects.  I'm probably off to the left of you somewhere, on something.

       How we perceive the impact of government in our lives, as a positive influence, or a necessary intrusion, is what divides us.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 141

RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/11/2008 9:49:25 PM

Lordandmaster

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Joined: 6/22/2004
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Ummm...who exactly isn't talking about it? This one is pretty simple. It's murder, and the murderer can (and will) be punished for it. Case closed, no?

Or are you saying something like...If we didn't have so many o' dem goddamn Pakistanis in this country, we wouldn't have none of this here "honor killings." Is that it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

The people who should be ashamed of themselves because they refuse to talk about this issue?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 142

RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/11/2008 9:49:27 PM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

quote:

TNstepsout
Nicely put and what I was attempting to say, but did not do so as well as you.

I actually thought you said it quite well.

TNstepsout, I wonder what this group of people would say about a country that purposely keeps a minority in poverty by not allowing them to control what happens on their lands, uses government law enforcement to cover up murder, refuses to allow various minorities within its own border to practice their traditions and cultural identity, even goes so far as to refuse to do within its borders what that government has demanded other countries do?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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(in reply to TNstepsout)

Post #: 143

RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/11/2008 9:51:59 PM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

TNstepsout
Nicely put and what I was attempting to say, but did not do so as well as you.

I actually thought you said it quite well.

TNstepsout, I wonder what this group of people would say about a country that purposely keeps a minority in poverty by not allowing them to control what happens on their lands, uses government law enforcement to cover up murder, refuses to allow various minorities within its own border to practice their traditions and cultural identity, even goes so far as to refuse to do within its borders what that government has demanded other countries do?

Are we discussing Native Americans or China? Just to pick a couple that came to mind right away, among the many others in the world.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Post #: 144

RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/11/2008 9:56:41 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
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Terra Nullius anyone?

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 145

RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/11/2008 9:59:55 PM

Thadius

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Joined: 10/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Terra Nullius anyone?

I prefer manifest destiny, but I could see some land not being owned...

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 146

RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/11/2008 10:10:26 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Or are you saying something like...If we didn't have so many o' dem goddamn Pakistanis in this country, we wouldn't have none of this here "honor killings." Is that it?

Actually, LaM, I was hoping for, "Oh my God, this is horrible! The Rethugli-whatevers are so heartless to turn their backs on domestic violence programs in this country, to pay for blankety-Bush's quagmire in Iraq."

I was hoping people who ought to care about these kind of human rights abuse's, actually would. It doesn't seem to have worked out that way.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 147

RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/11/2008 10:22:28 PM

Lordandmaster

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Joined: 6/22/2004
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Actually, everyone agreed that the case you cited was murder. Not everyone agreed that it's a meaningful example of the horrors of multiculturalism. So no, you didn't quite get the response you were hoping for.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 148

RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/11/2008 10:24:01 PM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

I was thinking Native Americans, China, Tibet, right off the top of my head.

Of course I am a member of the Free Texas movement demanding the end to the illegal occupation by the United States, with tthe provision that Mass takes back the Bush family!!!

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 149

RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/11/2008 10:45:09 PM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
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I salute the Free Republic of Texas, if it is meant to be, it will happen. I may even think about moving there if it does.

Just curious, would the fast lane through death row be slowed down with such a proposal?

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 150

RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/11/2008 11:56:57 PM

philosophy

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Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Interesting indeed, Phil. There are a great many legitimate functions of government, and I think you may be drifting into pot-kettle-black territory in the positions you percieve me occupying.

.....if i am then i apologise profusely.. it's something i earnestly try to avoid.

quote:

It is a question of personal attitude towards how we balance these things. You see the free market as something to restrict to the areas you deem "healthy," I see government as something to be allowed to do only those things the market cannot handle. Even then, I think the government should sub-contract to agencies subject to the forces of competition and outside oversight, whenever possible/practical/ethical.

....fair enough, an honest difference of opinion, or maybe a different slant on the same thing.

quote:

It really comes down to one's basic view of government, and how much control it should have over individuals, and how much impact in their day-to-day lives. We are probably very close in our ideas of what would work best on many subjects.  I'm probably off to the left of you somewhere, on something.

      How we perceive the impact of government in our lives, as a positive influence, or a necessary intrusion, is what divides us.

...agreed totally. For me, history, at least human history, is the story of how we organise ourselves at increasingly large population densities. The ancient Greeks had their conflict between oikos and polis, the law of the family and the law of the city-state. As the concept of nationhood evolved essentially the same conflict continued, merely at bigger levels of complexity.

Our little subthread began as a defence of what i considered my moderate stance. i am heartily encouraged at how we have managed this discourse, without recourse to belittling each others beliefs. i may have been wrong to think you extreme. My only defence is that i had been answering a lot of DA's posts. Sorry.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 151

RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/12/2008 12:06:54 AM

philosophy

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Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

How many tens of thousands of civilians have been slaughtered by islam???

...less than have been slaughtered by so-called Christians. You have, in these fora, gloried at killing a child whose only crime has been to have been so hungry they had to break cover to look for food.

quote:

Look at the body count every year in Isreal?

...and as you are undoubtedly aware, the body count has been much higher on the Palestinian side. Far more collateral damage has been caused by Israeli forces than Palestinian 'terror attacks'......

You are a sophist. You make bad justifications in order to support decisions you have made and opinions you hold independent of evidence......a number of US military veterans on these fora have rejected your callous and self congratulatory attempts to justify your killing of innocents. That makes me believe there is hope for the US. There is probably no hope for you. Thats a shame. Good luck. i wouldn't wish your karma on my worst enemy.

(in reply to DomAviator)

Post #: 152

RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/12/2008 12:34:07 AM

DomAviator

Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

You have, in these fora, gloried at killing a child whose only crime has been to have been so hungry they had to break cover to look for food.

You have me confused with jlf, I didnt shoot any kid foraging for food. I would do my business downtown, come back to big momma, catch a three wire, and then head on down to the dirty shirt wardroom for some bug juice , sliders, and autodog... If any kid was foraging for food on a US carrier hes #1 a hell of a fucking swimmer and #2 in the wrong god damn place and #3 has no fucking taste in food.

Nice try but ya cant put that one on me... Dont worry though I got my share of collateral damage too - its unavoidable when you are dropping bombs like 18,000 pounds worth at a time...

As for hope for me and my karma, do you not grasp that I dont give a fuck what you think of me? Seriously, Philo to each their own but you aint my kinda people ya know? If you walked into Trador Jon's in Pensacola or pretty much any pilot bar anywhere in the USA you would have your ass kicked simply because of your choice of hair length. Been there, seen it done, done it myself. Don't worry though, you wont find me in your coffeeshop either. Im sure your friends like you, just like mine like me. However, you aint my kind of person, so dont waste any more of your time thinking about me. Save some baby seals or hug some trees or something. We're never gonna be buddies and you aint converting me or saving my soul. LMFAO. Write me off and move on to working with those you think you can bring over to Lenins ideal cause it aint happening with me...

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 7/12/2008 12:47:32 AM >

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 153

RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/12/2008 1:34:27 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

Self-edited ...it would have been a waste of time and effort

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 7/12/2008 1:35:43 AM >

(in reply to DomAviator)

Post #: 154

RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/12/2008 3:03:21 AM

RealityLicks

Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline

Going back to the woman who was given six years for fucking on the beach, apparently the police warned them to stop an hour earlier but when they patrolled back around the couple were still trying to hide that sausage. It's not an example of muslim intolerance, far from it.

quote:

But unbowed Brits were out in force again yesterday – despite warnings that a steamy session could cost them six years in jail.
Tickets for the brunch – which includes lobster, oysters, sushi, prime steak and as much £100-a-bottle Bollinger champagne as you can gulp down – are sold out four weeks in advance.
And nowhere on earth is the clash of cultures between East and West more evident than here

Full article here, be warned.

Obviously, any murderer is to be reviled and there is no doubt that the majority of urban Pakistanis (and Indians - this is more cultural than religious) hate honour killings as much as any westerner. But I just don't understand why people accept such shallow representations of huge and disparate populations - whatever your politics, aren't you any more questioning than that?

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 155

RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/12/2008 9:58:31 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Our little subthread began as a defence of what i considered my moderate stance. i am heartily encouraged at how we have managed this discourse, without recourse to belittling each others beliefs. i may have been wrong to think you extreme. ... Sorry.

          Don't apologize, Phil. You haven't attacked me with hate-speech.

          We come again though, to equating stance with style. I find your thoughtful, soft-spoken posts to be very moderate in delivery. The worldview they reflect, of the relationship between individual and government, and the obligations of individual to individual, seem far to the left. I chose the word, "socialist" earlier in the thread. I should have used a more encompassing term.

        My positions on things fall all over the map. That I'm perfectly willing to do a bit of this,

, or this,

when it comes to defending them doesn't define them. Nor does the preference of others to seek

, or

, define their place on the spectrum.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 156

RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/12/2008 10:11:54 AM

roland23

Posts: 241
Joined: 9/11/2006
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As a Latino friend of mine said to a racist after a black mayor was elected "Guess I'll move next door to ya and marry your sister" HAHAHAHAHAHA!

If you don't like multiculturalism move to Antarctica! Forget that, the penguins aren't all one color!

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 157

RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/12/2008 11:00:00 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

i was more talking about your lack of regard for human life, especially innocent human life. according to islamic just war theory, women, children, the elderly, and non-combatants are not to be harmed (john kelsay, islam and war, before anyone accuses me of not citing my sources), so you must understand if i get a little too multicultural here when i say your desire to napalm the children makes me see red. :)

As to the first part - they arent innocent and we dont see them as human either. They are targets not "human life". The Napalm Sticks to Kids cadence, as well as other offensive jody calls have been in use for decades as a tool to densensitize us while building unit cohesion and espirt d corps.

As for the Islamic respect for human life, the elderly, children, non combatants etc BULLSHIT! How many women and children have died at the hands of them? Why were the towers struck? I will conceed that the Pentagon and the USS Cole were legitimate targets but werent the flight attendants and civilians "women" and "non combatants"? How about the elderly wheelchair bound man they tossed over the side of the cruise ship? How many tens of thousands of civilians have been slaughtered by islam???

See THIS is multicultural bullshit in the extreme... The "Islamic Just War" therory? Yeah RIGHT. Thats what the islamics want all right - just war. Nothing but war. Till the last infidel is dead. Well this one wont die.... Maybe they will get me someday but not until I take a few thousand more of them with me.... Practice whatever faith you like but drop the bullshit about what a peaceful people they are and how much respect they have for women and children and noncombatants because Ive seen the truth and dont buy the Al Queda press releases. Talking about the islamic respect for human rights and innocents is as laughable as Bahgdad Bob talking about the impending Iraqi victory as the US Tanks rolled past behind him...

Edited to add - as for "citing sources" I dont care what Al Quada propoganda is cited. Look at the body count every year in Isreal? How about the one with the bulldozer the other day? The one who blew up a school bus last year? The bombing at the resort in Bali? Ill cite a source - how about the list of the dead in the WTC attacks???

Once again proving that human evolution is not linear,DA proves what a prince he is by asserting that the actions of the lunatic fringe require he condemm a Religion in it's entirety...way to go big guy...point of fact Islam has slaughtered no one ...fanatics of all stripes have in fact racked up an impressive body count...

(in reply to DomAviator)

Post #: 158

RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/12/2008 11:12:18 AM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline

She also attacked the police officer with a shoe the second time he asked them to stop. So in my eyes they deserve what they get in court.

I think the main point has been touched on here many times. Murder is wrong, honor killings are wrong, and using one's cultural background as an excuse is probably going to get some eyebrows raised during the trial.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to RealityLicks)

Post #: 159

RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism - 7/12/2008 11:18:50 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

I remember the St. Louis killing. The FBI had been tapping their phone line because of the father’s affiliation with a suspected terrorist organization. The mother was talking on the phone while the father was stabbing his daughter to death in the background… They played the tape on the local news… You could hear her begging for her life and screaming in pain as he stabbed her.

Her crime in the eyes of her father…she was dating a black man.

Butch

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 160

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