RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (Full Version)

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AzureShards -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 4:37:11 PM)
Respectfully, I am very independant and self sufficient. I am capable of taking care of not only myself but also other people. In fact it is what I do and a part of my need to please and serve others. On the surface the people who see me day to day would never understand or believe that I am submissive. I do not wear it on my sleeve, partially due to my upbringing. I was raised by a single mother and taught to rely on no one but myself. So... I am very independant. ...And I would love nothing more then to submit, my submission is liberating for me and also fufills my need to please and care for another. My Dom would tell me his need and I would fufill it, no thought, no wieght, no decision, no doubt. But before I can submit there must be trust. Without trust I cannot submit... perhaps this a is a failing. shrug To trust I must be sure that the Dom/me is just as, if not more, capable than I am of seeing to things. I must be able to trust completly that s/he will do what is best for me and for themselves. That kind of trust is not easy to come by. So I suppose in a way, it is possible for it to be hard to submit, because the trust it takes for submission is hard to find and create. (Edited to add sig.)

DesFIP -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 4:37:11 PM)
Not bullshit. But that simple statement encompasses a lot of stuff implied but not stated. For one, starting a new relationship is always difficult for me. I don't do casual. I need to know a great deal about the other person including the fact that they plan to be there and not take off once they've put another notch on the bedpost. I don't know that from someone telling me so, I learn that from time spent with them, meaning months. I bottomed to him way before I felt safe submitting. To submit meant I had to trust him. And trust is learned through joint history, seeing him over time in all kinds of situations. In effect; judging whether or not I felt he was someone worth submitting to. And beyond that, I wasn't in the habit of following someone else's rules. So I needed a lot of time to slowly incorporate them into my life as new habits. That doesn't mean tell me once and then beat the crap out of me when I forget. It meant slow and patient teaching, reminding me, applauding the times I got it right so that I felt these new rules were good things. Damn few men out there with the patience and time to go at a speed I can learn at, and who don't expect Rome to be built in a day. Lacking any of what I need, I don't submit, instead I cling more tightly to my independence.

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 5:06:55 PM)
I'm not calling bullshit, not just yet. Depends on how the thoughts rattling about in my head right now, organize themselves. I think I'll play devil's advocate here for a moment: If you have been independent for a long time, and have a good life; the reasonable person may ask themselves, "What is there REALLY for me to gain by surrendering?" This may seem like a calculated way to look at submission, but when you are on your own, have a good life that you enjoy, and are in a position to control your own destiny, why wouldn't that be something that is not easily entrusted to another? I don't personally think completely along those lines, but I can honestly believe that it is a valid point, many have. For me, it is a different mindset. I'm not saying how I do things is right, even for myself. It just IS. I have been single and independent quite a while. Over the years, I've developed certain safe-guards to protect myself and my children, from even my own inherent needs. When I find myself attracted to a Dominant personality, it awakens a certain vulnerability within me that I typically keep well guarded. In a sense, it sets me off balance. The natural and instinctive thing to do, is react by trying to regain control and get things back into balance. Even when I know I'm withdrawing for no good reason, I will find myself doing so anyway. How far I retreat, has a lot to do with how much trust has been built up, how persistent (patient) the Dominant is, and how well we actually connect on other levels beyond just the original spark of chemistry between a Dominant and a Submissive. (sighs) This is not an easy thing to express, because it is hard to convey how an independent and othewise open and caring person can experience that sense of raw vulnerability and feel the need to shy away from it. Sometimes it feels like the ground has fallen away and you are a child again, precariously balanced upon a narrow bridge with a whole gaping chasm of unknowns all about you. Gettng to a point where that vulnerability can be embraced, where you WANT to move forward into the unknown instead of retreating back where the ground feels solid again, is not always easy. Mostly, because a great many variables have to fit into place for this to happen, including that unknown variable being someone who not only awakens the vulnerability within me, but also manages to inspire me to want to move forward and take a risk. Anyway, that's probably more than I really cared to get into,and I'm not even sure it addressed the original post adequately. I know that I can submit, and adore being in a relationship where another has authority over me. It isn't a power struggle, or a reason to avoid responsibilty. It is just a matter of finding the right fit, and in my case - someone who isn't in an all fire hurry to go from Point A to Point Z without at least finding out if Point C and D and E are even a compatable fit.

batshalom -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 5:20:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah So who calls Bullshit on this and who finds it Valid. Submitting is, at times, exhausting to me, and usually a challenge ... yet it is something I need to do. Maybe it's because of the challenge, maybe because it's a "safe" place for me to be, I don't know; but I do know that it's not b.s.

lighthearted -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 5:28:10 PM)
I would have to say, for me, to a certain extent it was true. I would have to add, tho, it was difficult to learn how to submit, more than anything. an analogy I used with me first master: after spending my whole life learning to write with my left hand, I was now learning to write with my right. (of course, he corrected me in saying that he demanded I write with my right.) my point is, that some aspects of my submission are learned behaviors, and the learning of them is where my difficulties were at time. of course, that's also where my greatest opportunities for growth were as well. like all things, it's a choice, and whatever the reason you choose for not submitting, it's still a choice.

Leatherist -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 5:30:49 PM)
You can get along with someone and have mutual dreams and goals-and it can be delightful. Or you can settle, just to BE with someone-especially just to do "D/s"-and it can be an ongoing nightmare. Which is why I tend to call bullshit on "roles".

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 5:53:58 PM)
I don't think it's bullshit at all. If you're used to a certain way and a certain process, it's hard to change it. The longer it's been some way, the harder it is to change it. Vanillas have this happen all the time when they've been single for a long time and then have to adapt to working as a partnership as well. Being a submissive might be easy, making a particular relationship work with a particular person when you haven't done anything like that in a long time may very well be very difficult. Now, if they were using that as some excuse as to why they disobeyed, or lacked discipline, then there's a problem. But as a pure statement of experience, I don't see an issue.

Daddystouch -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 5:56:02 PM)
I guess I can understand that. I don't think submissive is necessarily something you just 'are'. I know for a fact there are very strong, independent people who are not submissive or even dominant in their public lives, but who are submissive in private. I am sure there are people who are not submissive even in their private relationships.... until they meet the right person. Personally, I like that idea. That my partner is just submissive to me because that's who they are, but that they are submissive to me because that's how they feel and want to be around me, that their submission is a gift they choose to give to me - not their boss, not their friends, not random people in the street. However, I would be cautious of excuses. My last BDSM relationship was fraught with excuses and reluctance from my sub. I guess I knew it was doomed but I played it out anyway. Personally I think, if she's saying "I'm not used to submission, I can't do that yet" I'd take that as a bad sign. if she says "I'm not used to submission, but I really do want to do this for you, please help me submit" then I'd take that as a very good sign!

chicagoswitch -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 6:07:15 PM)
I have a very demanding career and as SimplyMichael put it, I do not wear my submissiveness on my sleeve. None of my vanilla friends would ever put my name and the word submissive in the same sentence. There are very few men who make me feel submissive. When I meet one, the desire is overwhelming. All I can think about is serving him. Unfortunately, there has been only one of those. My submission to him was almost immediate and 100%. I simply had no choice, it was perfectly natural.

angelic -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 6:39:07 PM)
What she said.

windchymes -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 8:26:36 PM)
We don't always necessarily DO or live our lives totally at the mercy of what we ARE. For example, who I AM is someone who likes to loll in bed every morning, get up when I'm darn good and ready and fully awake, sometimes even stay in bed and read a little while before venturing out to the kitchen to make coffee. But if I would tell my employer, "But....that's who I AM!", I seriously doubt he'd be sympathetic. Instead, what I DO is haul my ass out of bed way before I really want to, get ready for work and stumble out the door. So, just because I say I'm submissive doesn't mean I let everyone in the world tell me how to live my life. And it's also difficult to envision myself as a submissive to anyone I just meet, whether it's here or in real life. I"m not saying it would never happen, but when you live a certain lifestyle for a long time, you don't suddenly assume another one without looking back simply because it's who you ARE. Also, for most, there's a certain degree of caution you develop (or at least should develop) over time, after getting knocked around (figuratively) a few times....unless you're a total masochist.

brat4fun -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 8:34:41 PM)
I seem to have had the opposite problem when around a Dominant man. In the past I've had a very bad habit of rushing headlong into a relationship... losing myself in the man that I served. I think that's mostly because I was young and stupid and not very strong in myself yet. Now, though, I finally feel like I'm grown up enough be a good, competent partner. My ideas on what makes someone Dominant have evolved, as well. I'm not looking for someone to be in charge of kinky sex, and leaving it at that... or someone who has to be cruel to get me to do what he wants. Or a "man" who likes to break his toys. I'm at the beginning of a new relationship, and my Sir and I have decided to take things very slowly. Submitting to him feels right... it's not something that I have to struggle for. However, we've yet to tackle any of the really "tough" things. He has yet to meet my son, for instance. It's going to be very interesting to see how I react the first time Sir and I have a disagreement over a matter involving my son. grin lil Aidan

stella41b -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 8:51:24 PM)
I'm 50/50 here right down the line. Yes I am independent, I'm also very much a free spirit and Bohemian, but I'm also submissive. I've also studied acting and the performing arts, I have stage and screen experience. In theory on demand I can not just be submissive, but I can act drunk, appear to have an epileptic fit or even a sudden heart attack. I can recall a street theatre performance where I did indeed have to die which led to a couple of explanations to paramedics in the back of an ambulance that I wasn't actually ill but I was acting. But that's just the theory. My acting is just like my submission, it's a process. There's a Domme not far from me in South London. I love her to bits, but I can't submit to her and she wasn't patient enough to give me time to try, or my process of submission was too long for her. You work it out for yourselves. Yes I am submissive and my submission goes way beyond the parameters of the context we know when it comes to BDSM and I express my submission in different ways to different people. But because of the fact it is part of me in the context of BDSM I submit only to certain people at certain times in certain circumstances. I've been accused in the past of bullshitting and not being submissive. My stock response has been a suggestion to move on to something more suitable for this dominant who wants submission at the snap of a finger, such as perhaps a Yorkshire terrier.

cloudboy -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 8:59:26 PM)
I guess the task would be for the DOM to cultivate his partner's independence along with her submission. The two are not mutually exclusive.

summersprite -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 9:08:33 PM)
Submissive is NOT something that I AM, it IS something that I DO with my Sir because I wish to submit to Him and only Him. On a day to day basis, with the rest of the world.... I don't have a submissive bone in my body :-)

theq -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 9:25:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus What does being independent have to do with being not-submissive? I want a submissive with a brain who can operate on his or her own without a million directions. Since when is a submissive some kind of parasite? Agreed. I want a girl who will take the time to know me, know my preferences, know what I wouldn't have her do, and consult me when in doubt. She doesn't need to ask me if she may use the loo unless we're doing something!

OTKkindaGirl -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 10:07:24 PM)
i relate so well to this particulare post from Winsome, i too, am on the fence. i want to submit, i long to submit. it is rather easy for me to submit to especially dominating personalities, not all, mind you. in my professional life, i do come across as a submissive type personality that is capable of stepping up and taking charge when necessary. because i work so well with people and with a style that doesn't scream with aggressiveness, i am able to accomplish much. i kind of relate it to topping from the bottom vanilla style. grin i have been independent a few years and i have been learning about this lifestyle since then. i totally embrace knowing and understanding who i am, finally. as i was learning, i was more able to submit physically and mentally rather than emotionally. when i submit, two out of three aint bad but it's getting to that third stage of submission that seems to be tricky for me because that IS the part that requires complete trust in order to completely "own" me. one man that came to my home upon our 3rd meeting, came inside, inspected the place, kind of nodded to himself in approval and asked to move in right then. telling me that we would refinance my home together..... the man hadn't even met my children yet and i didn't even really know this guy, not really. talk about red flags all over the place! no, i could never allow such a thing to happen so quickly. it wasn't that i was too independent to be submissive to him, it was a lack of trust in him and his motives. only i can watch out for my well-being as well as that of my um's and it just seemed to me that he was trying to gain more than my trust and moving entirely way too fast. i may be submissive but i am far from stupid. it's that kind of vulnerability that i can relate to. i have sacrificed and struggled for everything that i have for so long and i don't want to lose it all because i trusted to quickly or easily, especially to a conartist. the only power i have in this lifestyle, is the power to choose who i am involved with. i had better make damned sure that he IS the kind of man i need and want in my life. if he has little patience with me and the amount of time it takes for trust to build, then i certainly don't want to waste his time. is it bullshit? am i less submissive because i am cautious, err i mean independent... naahhh. when i submit you can feel your own power through me, just good luck getting through that third stage.

dawntreader -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 10:29:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah So again what is your take on this idea? Steel Steel, i think knowing ones self AND what one is submitting to is very important here... i could never submit 100% right now to a 24/7 power exchange. However, i very easily and comfortably submit to a Dominant lover for a weekend. Being independent for so long is not as much a factor as where is this relationship going and do i want to go there. If i have any doubts...submission just doesn't happen~ So, do i call Bullshit? No...i think the person most likely doesn't know yet what they want to submit to.

MaamJay -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 10:51:28 PM)
Steel, I really think it depends on context and tone in which the statement was made. If it was thrown out there defiantly or as an obvious cop-out for bad performance on what should have been a doable task ... then I'm with You on calling it bullshit. However, if it was said in the context of discussing the future and spoken in a tone of "well this is how it is right now but i'm looking to You to help me get past this barrier ... then that's totally different. It's an acknowledgement of a potential problem in the context of being willing to resolve it. While I subscribe to the concept of a submissive nature, I think of the process of submitting as being a bit like an unrolling carpet. It's all there but the outward expression of it unrolls and is displayed more and more as the trust grows and the relationship develops. I think there has to be a starting willingness to unroll a good chunk of the carpet to begin, violet probably unrolled about 70% of hers initially for Master. Over time, Jay chose to put Her Dominant activities under His oversight, then violet gave Him control over her daily schedule including acceptance of outside invitations, she gave Him more and more control over things in the house, and 3 years in (and 1 year after being collared), He accepted full financial control (not without a few collywobbles on both sides!). The most recent unrolling was giving Him musical control in the rock duo ... that was HARD coming from more years experience and always being the leader of musical groups!! But it has worked brilliantly. Have to say i'm not sure what's left rolled up in my carpet ... there's probably something but won't know till it is challenged. There's no way i could have OR He would have let me submit all that off the bat ... wouldn't have been appropriate for either of us. But He did want to see a willingness to go there ... and that He got. So coming back to the statement ... if it was said from an attitude of "it's going to be hard, and possibly in some silly little ways (like i always buy x coffee and You want brand y!) but i am willing to learn and extend and try" ... then no problemo! Maam Jay aka violet[A]

shiazn03 -> RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~ (7/18/2008 11:34:33 PM)
hm...dunno whether to call it valid or bullshit but here are my opinions: opening up emotionally was really hard at first. then trusting the person/people enough to become dependent on them (at least somewhat, emotionally or whatnot) was a hard thing to do too. then (if you're unlucky enough) losing the person/people you trusted and opened up to is really, really difficult! because now you've gotta learn how to be independent again and the feeling sux in comparison. i definitely ditto on what bamabbwsub said though! :)

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