RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq

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Alumbrado -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/22/2008 5:49:50 PM)
No, I simply missed your reply...in what post # did you talk about Ken Lay, the Iron Triangle, the members of each party who switch sides, and the number of wars and millionaires on each side of the aisle?

Thadius -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/22/2008 7:19:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy What follows the surge? Glad to know you don't think we're in recession. How much more do we keep borrowing from China? When will the US ever address its energy needs from the demand side of the equation? Speaking of surges, why did we need one several (3-4) years after the Bush Administration claimed "Mission Accomplished?" quote: Meanwhile, the Fed sat back and watched as Wall Street’s financial wizards engineered diabolically complicated investments linked to mortgages, generating huge amounts of speculative capital that turned real estate into a conflagration. Gotta love that beautifully self regulated free market. It has nothing to do with what I think or not... officially we are not in a recession. End of story. Even the link you provided states that. It makes no sense to debate the pros or cons of the surge, as you are opposed to them being there regardless. I know, none of the blame for the mortgage crisis lies in the hands of folks that borrowed more than they could afford, or over extended themselves trying to make an easy buck... All of the blame is the fault of the lenders and folks speculating on bulk mortgage purchases. You still haven't named a wartime president that had ran a budget surplus or reduced federal spending...

cloudboy -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/22/2008 8:28:17 PM)
quote: It has nothing to do with what I think or not... officially we are not in a recession. End of story. Even the link you provided states that. It makes no sense to debate the pros or cons of the surge, as you are opposed to them being there regardless. I know, none of the blame for the mortgage crisis lies in the hands of folks that borrowed more than they could afford, or over extended themselves trying to make an easy buck... All of the blame is the fault of the lenders and folks speculating on bulk mortgage purchases. You still haven't named a wartime president that had ran a budget surplus or reduced federal spending... Like I said, glad we're not in a recession. No sense us punching back and forth on semantics. Wars are the single greatest driver of federal spending and government growth throughout our history, so no president has ever reduced spending or produced a surplus during a war. I'm not sure what point this makes. But you can have it.

cloudboy -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/22/2008 8:37:31 PM)
The post was #49. You dismissed it. That's your prerogative. Its all "partisan perceptions" according to you, despite differences in the funding bases and constituents, despite not voting or voting for certain wars. You don't see any differences. This is where we part ways. To me generalized political corruption doesn't make everyone the same.

Alumbrado -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/22/2008 8:40:42 PM)
Post #49 doesn't say a word about any of those issues I've repeatedly asked you to address... if you are going to resort to being untruthful, you can argue with yourself.

Thadius -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/22/2008 8:42:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: It has nothing to do with what I think or not... officially we are not in a recession. End of story. Even the link you provided states that. It makes no sense to debate the pros or cons of the surge, as you are opposed to them being there regardless. I know, none of the blame for the mortgage crisis lies in the hands of folks that borrowed more than they could afford, or over extended themselves trying to make an easy buck... All of the blame is the fault of the lenders and folks speculating on bulk mortgage purchases. You still haven't named a wartime president that had ran a budget surplus or reduced federal spending... Like I said, glad we're not in a recession. No sense us punching back and forth on semantics. Wars are the single greatest driver of federal spending and government growth throughout our history, so no president has ever reduced spending or produced a surplus during a war. I'm not sure what point this makes. But you can have it. Thre reason I was making that point was you asked... quote: Who was the last Republican President to reduce federal spending or run a budget surplus? I simply wanted to know if any president has done so during a war? The answer is no, so it is not a Republican or Democrat thing, it is a never happened thing. So claiming that Bush is out of the norm in this, is setting the bar a bit higher than we have ever set the bar.

cloudboy -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/23/2008 3:29:29 PM)
quote: So claiming that Bush is out of the norm in this, is setting the bar a bit higher than we have ever set the bar. Bush it out of the norm for his cutting of taxes during wartime. The point about running a surplus was directed to Alumbrado to show a difference between the parties, but he and I ceased having a meeting of the minds.

Alumbrado -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/23/2008 3:42:17 PM)
Oh, I think we both know that you have resorted to dodging the questions, and making untruthful claims.

cloudboy -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/23/2008 5:58:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Oh, I think we both know that you have resorted to dodging the questions, and making untruthful claims. This is pointless, and you are being self-servingly conclusory. Post #49 was on point to your challenge, but you rejected it for lack of specificity. That's your call. Then you started with the labeling: "dodging questions" and "untruthful claims." I gave you my answer, you rejected it. I've been on MBs a long time. This stuff goes no where. There is no meeting of the minds. What I don't think you realize is that you come off as saying that the fiscal policies of Clinton and the Republicans are undifferentiated. You then infer undifferentiated party stances on the PATRIOT ACT and the IRAQ war. You also infer that lobbyists exert the exact same kind of influence on each party. At times you seem to be saying Obama and McCain represent no alternative choices the the American voter. (Not here in this thread, per say.) Well, I made my point on these issues, and I still stand by it. To me there are meaningful differences and preferable alternatives.

Alumbrado -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/23/2008 6:36:53 PM)
quote: What I don't think you realize is that you come off as saying that the fiscal policies of Clinton and the Republicans are undifferentiated. I said the greedy motives behind the policies are the same...if you don't know what I'm talking about there, perhaps you should find out more before rejecting it out of hand. Once again, how many millionaires, war profiteers, predatory lenders, etc on each side of the aisle? quote: You then infer undifferentiated party stances on the PATRIOT ACT and the IRAQ war. No, I pointed out that members of both parties are getting rich from, and are ready to use both of those things for their own benefit, no matter what 'stance' their party proclaims. No matter what the majority in Congress, no one has lifted a finger to change things that will line their pockets and silence their enemies. As has been pointed out here before, which party was it that just voted overwhelmingly to support the war in Iraq, while calling support for it something that only the other side did? quote: You also infer that lobbyists exert the exact same kind of influence on each party. That's the only thing you've correctly attributed to me, and it isn't an inference, it is axiomatic hence the name 'Iron Triangle'. Again, if this in not an area where you have much specific knowledge, it is easy enough to read up on.. I'd recommend starting with Lindblom, then Thomas Dye. . I've repeatedly asked you to explain Ken Lay, the Iron Triangle, lobbyists buying votes on both sides of the aisle, and politicians switching parties...all of which you claim you answered in post # 49, when you clearly did no such thing. You also haven't explained how it is 'different' when someone dies in a war run by Democrats, than when they die in a war run by Republicans. Same for the questions about how it would be OK for someone to be the victim of discriminatory laws passed by Democrats, like Jim Crow and DADT, but not OK if the laws are passed by someone else.. This will go nowhere, because while you are entitled to your opinions, you can't explain them rationally, leaving you with no choice but to employ the blind faith tactics of fundy's everywhere when confronted with the heresy of rational questions.

caitlyn -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/23/2008 9:41:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado As far as bringing 'it' up, the OP is on record with his opinions, including the 'order of things' mantra regarding the suitablility of a black man to govern America....if he or you want to defend that go right ahead, but don't just toss it out there and run away, then complain when people remember who said it, and what it means. I decided to let this go a day or so, and let you continue your fight with others. [;)] What I have seen, is several, including CelticLord, posting opposition to Senator Obama, for a variety of reasons. I also saw several responses, indicating that this opposition must have something to do with Senator Obama being a 1/2 person of color. We now have the point of view that because some have been accused by insinuation, it must be true ... taken to the next logical conclusion that you have now insisted he is on record with it. I must have missed that. Perhaps you can show us where, in something other than the words of others, he actually took the stand you insist he took. If you can, power to you ... if not, well you know the rest. These thing grow legs, where the weight of accusations seem to carry weight far in excess of their factual nature. I've been on the receiving end several times ... it doesn't play well, and anyone worth discussing it with, sees right through it. Good day ...

Alumbrado -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/23/2008 9:44:45 PM)
quote: I must have missed that. Perhaps you can show us where, in something other than the words of others, he actually took the stand you insist he took. If you can, power to you ... if not, well you know the rest. This makes no sense at all... If I can't prove it without quoting his exact words, then he never took that stand? Or are you saying that I have to prove something without showing that a certain catch phrase is a well known slogan for a certain group? Riiiiight... people use those sorts of things innocently all the time, particularly after claiming that the unborn chidren of Tuskeegee were solely responsible for their own infection, and accusing Obama of playing the race card for mentioning his father's race in his bio. Enjoy your denial.

caitlyn -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/23/2008 9:58:57 PM)
Perhaps it doesn't make sense, because you are responding to something I didn't say. I never said he didn't take the stance. I said I didn't see him do it. I'm willing to be proven wrong ... all anyone has to do is show me where CL, in his own words, took that stand. It would seem the least an accusor could do.

Alumbrado -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/23/2008 10:00:39 PM)
Asked and answered... If you don't get the same impression from those words as I do, more power to you...and enjoy your denial.

caitlyn -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/23/2008 10:21:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Asked and answered... If you don't get the same impression from those words as I do, more power to you...and enjoy your denial. What words were those? I never saw CL say any of that. He may have. I'm willing to accept that I may have missed it, but all I have seen is you accuse him of it. You can call that denial if you wish, but to me its just being unwilling to accept unsupported accusations. End of thread for me. [:D]

Alumbrado -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/23/2008 10:40:25 PM)
If you didn't see the OP claim that is was an outrageous lie that the government deliberately infected black people at Tuskegee, because they really infected themseves, even the women and children, or if you didn't see him use the 'Obama must be playing the race card because he mentioned his father', or see him attack black's wanting to elevate their family values as somehow being racist, and if you didn't see his repeated use of the well known mantra that a black president would be against the 'order of things', and if you didn't see him, when asked if he was in fact echoing the groups who generated such rhetoric, respond with sneers and dismissive one word smirking, then you have had your eyes shut very tightly indeed. Thing is, those are a matter of record, as is your complaining when other people who did see those words, choose to remember them. I'm also on record as saying that I have concerns about Obama...but I didn't resort to any of those tactics to express them, and neither did many other people here who have managed to discuss Obama's shortcomings without using catch phrases and rhetoric from extremists.

Thadius -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/24/2008 4:26:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado If you didn't see the OP claim that is was an outrageous lie that the government deliberately infected black people at Tuskegee, because they really infected themseves, even the women and children, or if you didn't see him use the 'Obama must be playing the race card because he mentioned his father', or see him attack black's wanting to elevate their family values as somehow being racist, and if you didn't see his repeated use of the well known mantra that a black president would be against the 'order of things', and if you didn't see him, when asked if he was in fact echoing the groups who generated such rhetoric, respond with sneers and dismissive one word smirking, then you have had your eyes shut very tightly indeed. Thing is, those are a matter of record, as is your complaining when other people who did see those words, choose to remember them. I'm also on record as saying that I have concerns about Obama...but I didn't resort to any of those tactics to express them, and neither did many other people here who have managed to discuss Obama's shortcomings without using catch phrases and rhetoric from extremists. I have gone back and re-read the threads that you refer to, namely http://www.collarchat.com/m_1900286/mpage_1/tm.htm where the Tuskegee discussion took place... I can't see anything in what Celtic said in that thread that comes close to what you are describing, at least in terms of any kind of racist mantras. I think you might be projecting a bit on this one. The only people talking about race in any terms in that thread were you and cyberdude. And not to get even further off-topic here but this needs to be said. I could write a book on the great things that St. Sabina, Trinity, and The Nation of Islam have done for the various communities in Chicago. I used to volunteer over at St. Sabina during the holidays, it was just up the road from where my dad's CTA garage was on 79th St., so it gave us an extra benefit of having lunch during the week. That being said, it is still a widely held opinion in the city that the 3 heads of those great institutions are on the extreme sides of many issues. While those connections scare alot of people, the connections that scare me are the connections to the Daley and Stroger machines, then add in Rezko and Ayers, and I have to wonder which one owns a bigger part of his political debts. Within the next 3 years, the 3 Daley brothers will control the 3 most powerful positions in Illinois, Mayor of Chicago, governor, and president of the Cook County board. Well that is enough rambling from me on that. It's just politics as usual. Edited to add: Just read another thread, that focused more on race and race relations... The one where you questioned "natural order of things", while there are plenty of other citations from that thread that could be considered race baiting, and bigoted (by more than just one person, including the OP) I have to disagree with the way he used it there as being such. Oh and as an aside, you suggest that talk of natural order is a code phrase used by racists... Are you suggesting that Goreans are racists, as we talk about natural order all of the time?

Alumbrado -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/24/2008 4:58:29 AM)
That's great, but while that thread does contain denials that the government deliberately and knowingly caused the women and children at Tuskegee to become infected with syphillis, it wasn't the 'mantra' thread I was referencing, so I wonder how you get that I am projecting racist mantras against black people from citing the wrong thread?

slvemike4u -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/24/2008 7:30:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado As far as bringing 'it' up, the OP is on record with his opinions, including the 'order of things' mantra regarding the suitablility of a black man to govern America....if he or you want to defend that go right ahead, but don't just toss it out there and run away, then complain when people remember who said it, and what it means. I decided to let this go a day or so, and let you continue your fight with others. [;)] What I have seen, is several, including CelticLord, posting opposition to Senator Obama, for a variety of reasons. I also saw several responses, indicating that this opposition must have something to do with Senator Obama being a 1/2 person of color. We now have the point of view that because some have been accused by insinuation, it must be true ... taken to the next logical conclusion that you have now insisted he is on record with it. I must have missed that. Perhaps you can show us where, in something other than the words of others, he actually took the stand you insist he took. If you can, power to you ... if not, well you know the rest. These thing grow legs, where the weight of accusations seem to carry weight far in excess of their factual nature. I've been on the receiving end several times ... it doesn't play well, and anyone worth discussing it with, sees right through it. Good day ... Thank You Caitlyn for calling him on this,CL is not the only victim of this posters predisposition to label those that disagree with him rasict.This seems to be a default position and attributed to any that have the temerity to question his point of view...his second favorite charge is the one of denial,for surely if you don't see the same "evidence"he see's or make the same leaps he makes you must be in denial....it must be a real warm and fuzzy world he occupies one in which there is only one true order of things...his

Thadius -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/24/2008 12:06:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado That's great, but while that thread does contain denials that the government deliberately and knowingly caused the women and children at Tuskegee to become infected with syphillis, it wasn't the 'mantra' thread I was referencing, so I wonder how you get that I am projecting racist mantras against black people from citing the wrong thread? All I have to go by is what you have provided here, so finding a particular thread you are referring to is like pulling straws from a bail of hay, and saying is it this one? No, how about this one? So if you have a particular thread or threads in mind, please point them out for clarification. As for the claim about you projecting... you brought the racial aspects into this thread. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2015835 Oh and if you find the time, could you also please answer my question about "natural order", and how it is a "certain catch phrase is a well known slogan for a certain group" and then follow that up with "Riiiiight... people use those sorts of things innocently all the time". I can think of at least 2 groups that use that phrase all the time... environmentalists and Goreans, is there something I am missing here?

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