RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (Full Version)

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cloudboy -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/24/2008 12:54:56 PM)

quote:

Thank You Caitlyn for calling him on this,CL is not the only victim of this posters predisposition to label those that disagree with him rasict.


Well, we all characterize our opponent to some degree. Ideally such characterizations will be tied closely to our opponent's text --- fairly interpreted.

Its tough, tho, to respond to a blanket characterization of what you are doing posting-wise.

For instance if I ask you "what was the national debt ceiling in 2006?"

If you fail to answer that, am I entitled to say that you dodge questions? (Blanket characterization.)

If you respond with information that doesn't exactly answer that question, can I characterize you as someone who "blows smoke?" (Notice how I become judge and jury over the debate --- determining the facts and pronouncing judgment therefrom. "You stole the apple, and you are thief!)

In my own case, I just felt our minds were failing to meet --- and AL rejected that as well. He wanted specifics and I gave generalities.

Its hard to get your car back on the road after that.

-----

As for the whole Obama-McCain -- Democratic - Republican thing --- my new thought is this. McCain just looks and acts too old. I think this is what is going to cost him the most in the election. To me, he just looks too far past his prime. On the other hand, I hope I'm doing that well at age 71.



caitlyn -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/24/2008 4:17:41 PM)

I'm of the opinion that it is very difficult to define a racist, based on posts on a message board ... or a facist, or any other core group. There are too many variables, such as in this instance, where CelticLord did nothing more than discuss the wrong doings of the government in areas that can be categorically proven that wrong doings did exist, as taught at the university level. Notice he didn't offer a blanket defense of the government ... only focused the wrongs to areas proven beyond debate.
 
Difficult to find racism there ... at worst, the information he was taught may have been incorrect, as would be the case in my instance, since my university teaches roughly the same thing. Being taught incorrectly, and/or not knowing more advanced information, is a far cry from being a racist.
 
There are variables of communications skills to be considered. Some don't come across here, as well as others. I think people like Merc, and FirmHanky (whom I rarely agree with [;)]), make posts that could sell milk to a dairy farmer, while you really have to dig hard to get Ron's point of view, even though there is usually a gem hidden under there.
 
I tend to save classification, for those I know well enough to have an informed opinion. [;)]



slvemike4u -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/24/2008 4:38:43 PM)

Amen to that....now if only we could get more to take that POV



Alumbrado -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/24/2008 5:02:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

That's great, but while that thread does contain denials that the government deliberately and knowingly caused the women and children at Tuskegee to become infected with syphillis, it wasn't the 'mantra' thread I was referencing, so I wonder how you get that I am  projecting racist mantras against black people from citing the wrong thread?




All I have to go by is what you have provided here, so finding a particular thread you are referring to is like pulling straws from a bail of hay, and saying is it this one? No, how about this one?   So if you have a particular thread or threads in mind, please point them out for clarification.

As for the claim about you projecting... you brought the racial aspects into this thread. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2015835 

Oh and if you find the time, could you also please answer my question about "natural order", and how it is a "certain catch phrase is a well known slogan for a certain group" and then follow that up with "Riiiiight... people use those sorts of things innocently all the time".  I can think of at least 2 groups that use that phrase all the time... environmentalists and Goreans, is there something I am missing here?



Hmmm... how about David Duke and Stormfront making that particular phrase their slogan for the dangers of letting black people intermingle and have equality?
http://www.davidduke.com/general/jane-shearer-the-defilement-and-death-of-a-white-girl_3382.html
http://www.whitecivilrights.com/1078_1078.html

Or are you saying that Goreans spend all their time talking about why black liberation theology is an outrage, and how put upon whites are, as in the thread where that phrase was so smugly tossed in for 'no particular reason'?
http://www.collarchat.com/m_1945750/mpage_1/tm.htm
[8|]   [8|]

Give me a break.... that's like pretending that 'blood in the face' is an innocent reference, or that Mudoven is just another band.



Look, ignorance, divisiveness, bigotry, and superstition are real crowd pleasers, and on the Internet, every night is karaoke night.


People who wouldn't dare call a Jew a pigf***r to his face, or a black man a n****r, or an Hispanic a sp**k, are emboldened by the safety of their keyboard.

Vietnam war heros, Special Forces Colonels, Federal Agents, trained CIA mind control experts, and mighty mighty sword warriors and deadly hand to hand combat instructors abound, E-7 can be made in 3 years out of boot camp, and Morgan Fairchild has been screwed more times than the American taxpayer.


Just in my years here, I've been informed that George Bush blew up the Twin Towers, 'trannys' don't belong on CollarMe, homeopathy works as advertised, perpetual motion has been invented and suppressed, there is no oil in the Sudan, the Republican party founded the KKK, the KKK was never any different than it is today, several US Supreme Court rulings either don't exist, or don't have any effect, each party is inherently more honorable and smarter than the other, the violent fugitive polygamist sects are just misunderstood polyamory lifestylers, both Obama and Rev. Wright must apologize for things that were either never said, or were said because they were in fact a matter of historical record, likewise for Jews, and so forth and so on.  


So why do I bother posting link after link, and pointing out fallacy after fallacy? 
First, to make sure that no one thinks I fall for any of it... and faint hope, maybe offer someone out there an opportunity to get a slice of reality before they are manipulated into throwing a bomb........
Which brings me back to my earlier question... how exactly is someone who exposes the use of David Duke's catch phrase in a harangue against black equality, projecting their white supremacist viewpoints again?





Thadius -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/24/2008 5:32:03 PM)

The 2 links you provide by that maggot Duke, has the same little paragraph in both and are in reference to the same incident.  Also the use of even the word "order" in both links is one time.  I could point out the numerous assmunching racists that talk about informing people so they wont fall for any of it.  That is actually part of the defense they present when ever challenged about their public rallies.

Now to the post you refered to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Of course,  you're wrong...yet again.

There are many criticisms to be leveled against the various flavors of liberation theology--and none of them are relevant here.  Frankly, I don't give a damn if this is how Trinity chooses to spread the Good Word. 

I do give a damn when a person steeped in that theology and attendant value system aspires to high national office.  Then I want to know how (or if) that theology will be applied in the execution of his duties.  Trinity's theology only becomes relevant because Obama has absorbed it for 20 years, and by his own words credits the church as a major influence in his life--I desire to know the manner and mode of that influence.

Not only is it a fair question to ask, it a necessary question to ask, and it should be necessary for Obama to give answer.

It is most assuredly the order of things.



My reading of his use of "order of things" here, is simply that he feels that the questions he has, should be answered before making a decision.  Maybe I am wrong or being naive, but I don't know the man well enough to automaticly jump to the conclusion that he is being inspired by the likes of David Duke.  Again these are simply my opinions, and I have no dog in the fight either way.

I was simply pointing out how the tone of your posts are coming across.

I wish you well,
Thadius



Alumbrado -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/24/2008 5:50:58 PM)

I don't know the person at all... I do know where the rhetoric about black liberation theology being an outrage, white people being the victims of black 'racism', Tuskegee being the responsibility of the infected blacks,  and Obama being against the 'order of things' comes from, and I would challenge anyone to find such talk common on the Gorean forums.



Thadius -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/24/2008 6:13:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

I don't know the person at all... I do know where the rhetoric about black liberation theology being an outrage, white people being the victims of black 'racism', Tuskegee being the responsibility of the infected the blacks,  and Obama being against the 'order of things' comes from, and I would challenge anyone to find such talk common on the Gorean forums.


Thanks for answering my question... It is good to know that you weren't just generalizing the use of that particular phrase.  I would dare say that there are plenty of offensive things discussed by us in the Gorean forums, especially the ones that are closed to the public.  Then again they aren't based on race, or religious beliefs.  What I mean to say is there are plenty of things that plenty of folks find offensive and even sexist in our discussions.

You are entitled to your opinions and the right to express them, I guess I was just more confused as to why hi-jack this thread with an issue being discussed in another.  Just one last thing, to suggest that there aren't extremists of every race, color and creed, seems to be a bit lacking in the intellectual honesty area.  Justifying any bigotry because of being a victim to past bigotry, leads to a never ending spiral of retaliation.

I wish you well,
Thadius



cloudboy -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/24/2008 6:26:37 PM)


Quote of the day:

From an Associated Press story about some comments Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.) made upon returning from Iraq, to which he traveled with Barack Obama:

"Quit talking about, 'Did the surge work or not work,' or, 'Did you vote for this or support this,'" Hagel said Thursday on a conference call with reporters.

"Get out of that. We're done with that. How are we going to project forward?" the Nebraska senator said. "What are we going to do for the next four years to protect the interest of America and our allies and restructure a new order in the world. ... That's what America needs to hear from these two candidates. And that's where I am."



cloudboy -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/24/2008 6:33:07 PM)

Well, you are big on restraint and not jumping to conclusions. Sometimes I feel this comes off as equivocation or "straddling," but in general you are very consistent in how you debate with others. Also, this approach does not really comport with you avatar. Not sure if you've ever thought about that.

I just hope that my arguments here somehow translate to help me in real time when my ability to persuade others might matter.



slvemike4u -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/24/2008 6:40:50 PM)

Prosecuter,judge  and jury .....



caitlyn -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/24/2008 8:36:17 PM)

To me, being on the side is caution is the only side that makes sense ... especially as it applies to other people.
 
A perhaps practical example, using something topical, I strongly disagree with CelticLords position on liberation theology and Trinity Church, as it relates to Senator Obama. I see nothing the least bit racist in the words of Pastor Wright. I don't happen to agree with him, but he has a right to his opinions, and we have to keep in mind, that they are opinions, not actions. I haven't seen any evidence that Pastor Wright is out lynching white folk, or breaking any other law.
 
At the poing where we feel the need to demonize what we don't agree with ... well, we have crossed the line that divides sanity, from advanced paranoia.
 
The same applies to Senator Obama's membership in that church. We don't know what's on his mind while sitting in that church, and take a leap into the unknown when we insinuate that because he heard words that we might not agree with, those words somehow shape him. I'm a Catholic and attend mass every Sunday. I go, to worship, out of respect to people important in my life, and quite frankly, because I enjoy going. That said, I still practice contraception, think Priests should be allowed to marry, and am horrified by the Church's deflection tactics as it relates to abusive clergy. Does my church shape me? ... a grand total of none-percent! I don't go there to be shaped. I have my own reasons for going, and would imagine Senator Obama is a lot more reasoning than myself. I understand Trinity Church is a powerhouse of good deeds, in support of the poor and downtrodden. Perhaps that plays a part in Senator Obama's membership. We really don't know, and quite frankly, its none of our fucking business. He is running for President ... his political views matter. His religious views will matter, when he decided to become Pope. [;)]
 
But ... my disagreement with CelticLord - pretty strong disagrement at that ... estill doesn't make him a racist.
 
Sorry for the long post.

P.S. Never really thought about the avatar. Perhaps it shapes me. [:D]



Alumbrado -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/24/2008 9:08:51 PM)

And still conflates calling for an accounting for rhetoric well known to be from extremist sources, with calling a person something. 

For all I know the OP thinks it is a hilarious joke to agitate people by recycling such things, but doesn't believe them to be true.  Or maybe, he believes them to be true, but doesn't see it as racist, because it is the order of things for concerned people to warn others about this menace...


Is it possible for someone to aver that everything in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is true, and not a forgery, without being anti-semitic?  That still doesn't make it right to assert that point.

Is it possible that someone could claim that death camps were the Jew's fault and not the Germans, without being a neo-Nazi?...again, who cares, when the problem is what is being regurgitated.

So it is with the 'black equality is outrageous racism against whites', and 'Obama must apologize for Wright's Tuskegee and coming home to roost comments', etc, etc. 

The point is that what is being said is untrue and mimicks rhetoric from a specific agenda.....trying to spin that into 'You said he was a racist!' is nothing more than a distraction from what should be truly objectionable.



slvemike4u -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/24/2008 9:18:08 PM)

No spin Al you said he was a rasict...now you claim what he said was untrue,when in truth he had a different interpetation from yours and further you seek to link his words with those mouthed by avowed rasict's and in doing so you have decided if the words are similiar than he should be painted with the same brush....a leap I and many others are not prepared to make with you
 



Alumbrado -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/24/2008 9:24:23 PM)

quote:

No spin Al you said he was a rasict


I said he  personally was a racist, instead of saying that the ideas were?  Riiiiiight....I won't be holding my breath for you to provide that quote...  but then again, your mud slinging isn't based on what I actually said anyway is it?



ModeratorEleven -> RE: Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq (7/24/2008 9:25:50 PM)

Ok folks, enough. 

XI



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