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A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 11:18:35 AM   
LadyPact


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I wrote something on an earlier thread that I thought might be interesting.  The original thread is found here http://www.collarchat.com/m_1415379/tm.htm so if you want to see the background info on it, please do.

While I did not ask permission from the poster that I quoted to reprint his entry, I figure, it's already up there for anyone to see.  What makes Me bring it to this board is the later concept that I mentioned in My reply to his post.   I'm curious to know how the CM population thinks.


quote:

ORIGINAL: InsaenPleasures

One other thing to remember is that even someone who has been in the lifestyle for a long time may have no real practical experience. I do not consider them fakes, because we all do not have the same opportunities even if we read up on every subject and have real discussions. Some people are theoretical and thats fine, just be aware that their real experience is rather limited.

To which I replied
quote:

Original: LadyPact
I think the OP's question was answered very well by Archer several pages, and months ago.  This comment, however, brought something else.

I'm wondering exactly how someone can be termed "in the lifestyle with no  practical experience".  While I realize that not everyone has had an opportunity yet to explore certain things with another person, each person has to decide for themselves how to live.



Using the wording above, I can apply the concept to almost anything.  For example, I can read books on Buddhism.  I can spend My time talking with Buddhists.  I might even go to the temple.  Does it make Me a Buddhist?  Ummm.... No.

I'm only a Buddhist if I chose to be one.  If I live My life that way.  All of the reading and studying in the world doesn't 'make' Me a Buddhist.  I might have extensive knowledge of Buddhism, but not the wisdom that comes from being one.



So, I'm wondering, does anyone else see it like this?



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread
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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 11:32:20 AM   
ExSteelAgain


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Oh, I don't know. I certainly have real life experiences, but I could still be a Dom and have few if any experiences. Before I got into D/s, I was still into sexually dominating play and it would be playing with definitions to say I wasn't Dom. A friend of mine on CM who lives in my home town doesn't have a relationship going on or see anyone casually, but she is still a submissive.

To use the example, what determines if a person is a Buddhist? Why couldn't he have become one by reading and studying? Exactly, what does the person have to DO in order to be ordained a Buddhist? He may be living like a Buddhist already in his mind. He doesn't learn a secret handshake, grow spots or something because he LIVES like a Buddhist.

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 11:34:35 AM   
Asmodeus


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Call me elitist if you like, but I'm a firm believer that online experience with BDSM is as applicable to real life as playing WoW or Everquest.  Fantasy is fine, but it seems that many think it crosses over to reality when applied to online D/s roleplay.

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 11:37:40 AM   
CreativeDominant


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I agree...sooner or later you have to get your feet wet.  Whether it is entering into a D/s dynamic in which only dominance and submission are explored or a combination D/s BDSM dynamic in which both areas are explored or a BDSM dynamic in which the play is explored, with either D/s overtones or top/bottom overtones.

I studied long and hard to be what I am professionally.  So did many of the doctors who taught me.  But unlike some of them, I went away from the "ivory tower/safe enclosure" environment of school and entered practice.  I've been in practice for 25 years and teaching on weekends for 5 years.  They never left school and while they may have the same degree I do, I have to ask you...would you rather I touch you to treat you or would you rather have them do so?

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 11:38:18 AM   
Asmodeus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

Oh, I don't know. I certainly have real life experiences, but I could still be a Dom and have few if any experiences. Before I got into D/s, I was still into sexually dominating play and it would be playing with definitions to say I wasn't Dom. A friend of mine on CM who lives in my home town doesn't have a relationship going on or see anyone casually, but she is still a submissive.

To use the example, what determines if a person is a Buddhist? Why couldn't he have become one by reading and studying? Exactly, what does the person have to DO in order to be ordained a Buddhist? He may be living like a Buddhist already in his mind. He doesn't learn a secret handshake, grow spots or something because he LIVES like a Buddhist.


Someone may be dominant or submissive in their non D/s existence; that doesn't qualify as experience in BDSM. 

Would you let an online dominant wield a singletail on you in real life?  I actually know of at least two submissives who allowed that, neither one aware that for the dominant that they had met on line this was the first time they had used them on a live person.  One neutral experience; one who still has a nasty scar in a sensitive place.

< Message edited by Asmodeus -- 7/22/2008 11:44:15 AM >


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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 11:41:39 AM   
softpjOS


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quote:

I'm wondering exactly how someone can be termed "in the lifestyle with no  practical experience".

 
I would have to say that boils down to each person's definition of "in the lifestyle".
 
I would wager to say my (vanilla) husband considers himself somewhat "in the lifestyle" even though he has no *practical experience*.  His willingness to listen, understand, discuss, learn about and allow me to participate puts him dead center of my lifestyle relationship.  He's attended munches, lifestyle events in an effort to understand and be more aware of my relationship with my Mistress. 
 
In my opinion, we can have interest in, consider ourselves a part of many things without actually *doing*.  Level of involvement shouldn't be a huge factor unless it pertains to a specific relationship and/or activity.. IE: i'd want to KNOW you've actually used that whip successfully if you're aiming it at me!
 
The fact that the person is willing to be honest and upfront about their level of *hands on experience* should count for something :)
 

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 11:42:21 AM   
Asmodeus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

I studied long and hard to be what I am professionally.  So did many of the doctors who taught me.  But unlike some of them, I went away from the "ivory tower/safe enclosure" environment of school and entered practice.  I've been in practice for 25 years and teaching on weekends for 5 years.  They never left school and while they may have the same degree I do, I have to ask you...would you rather I touch you to treat you or would you rather have them do so?



I almost used this as an example in my initial response; I was at the orthopod yesterday for a cortisone injection in my knee. He had a resident at his office , doing a practicum, I suppose.  When he started to explain to her how to determine the injection site and how to feel with that very long needle for the right location I stopped tham and asked "She has done this before, right?" I had no interest in being a practice target; I've felt needles scaping on bone before and don't enjoy it. ;)

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 11:44:00 AM   
SurrenderForMe


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quote:

To which I replied
quote:
Original: LadyPact
I think the OP's question was answered very well by Archer several pages, and months ago. This comment, however, brought something else.

I'm wondering exactly how someone can be termed "in the lifestyle with no practical experience". While I realize that not everyone has had an opportunity yet to explore certain things with another person, each person has to decide for themselves how to live.

Using the wording above, I can apply the concept to almost anything. For example, I can read books on Buddhism. I can spend My time talking with Buddhists. I might even go to the temple. Does it make Me a Buddhist? Ummm.... No.

I'm only a Buddhist if I chose to be one. If I live My life that way. All of the reading and studying in the world doesn't 'make' Me a Buddhist. I might have extensive knowledge of Buddhism, but not the wisdom that comes from being one.

So, I'm wondering, does anyone else see it like this?



Yes and no. 

To be a Buddhist, you don't need a partner.  To say you are in the lifestyle, you generally, not always, need a partner.  I'd compare it more to the difference between masturbation and coitus.    If you masturbate and orgasm, you have had a sexual experience.  But have you had sex, not really.  You have not touched, aroused and generated an orgasm in someone else.  That is a skill different than self stimulation. 

If you tie yourself up, you have experienced bondage.  You know that the ropes cut off circulation after x amount of time.  You know whatever number of designs.  I think I just made an argument that bondage qualifies, even alone.

If you are dominant or submissive, but have never worked with someone, had issues, had successes, you don't have more than an intellectual understanding of the dynamics.  Real life and real practical experience can, not will, can, give you skill.  But overall it does require a partner.   Same idea for sadomasochism, need hands on.

Experience is a good thing to have or acquire, but if someone is unable to hook up they are still kinky if they have urges that fit in whatever kinky category.  In the lifestyle is an imprecise phrase.  It is a dangerous thing, in that it provides another inclusionary or exclusionary mindset. 

I'll go with "Do as thou wilt, an it harm none."

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 11:52:04 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain
To use the example, what determines if a person is a Buddhist? Why couldn't he have become one by reading and studying? Exactly, what does the person have to DO in order to be ordained a Buddhist? He may be living like a Buddhist already in his mind. He doesn't learn a secret handshake, grow spots or something because he LIVES like a Buddhist.

I think that's part of the quandary right there.  Doesn't a person have to make a decision to become a Buddhist, rather than just learning about it?  Couldn't a person immerse themselves in the knowledge, and still not be exactly what he pursued in learning.  Wouldn't that LIVING part, make the difference?


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 12:03:25 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

Oh, I don't know. I certainly have real life experiences, but I could still be a Dom and have few if any experiences. Before I got into D/s, I was still into sexually dominating play and it would be playing with definitions to say I wasn't Dom. A friend of mine on CM who lives in my home town doesn't have a relationship going on or see anyone casually, but she is still a submissive.

To use the example, what determines if a person is a Buddhist? Why couldn't he have become one by reading and studying? Exactly, what does the person have to DO in order to be ordained a Buddhist? He may be living like a Buddhist already in his mind. He doesn't learn a secret handshake, grow spots or something because he LIVES like a Buddhist.


That's getting a bit ethereal though, isn't it Steel?  Visualization and learning and thinking things through and "feeling it" is all well and good, in fact it is necessary to do anything.  But while dominating someone and submitting someone does come from inside one's self, whether naturally or through learning of it, it has to be done for the act of domination or submission to occur.  I too am dominant in my nature, modulated to fit the situations and people I deal with but never too far away and never put away completely.  Am I dominating them?  In some ways, yes but as long as it is not consensual and they are not aware of it in the sense that we understand D/s, then I am not in a D/s dynamic with them...even though I am.  But I have to tell you, for myself only...I respect Dr. C. Barnard's skills as a heart surgeon much more knowing that he has done it as well as taught it than I would a doctor whose only experience with heart surgery came from reading of the exploits of others and Gray's anatomy and all the right books on cardiovascular surgery.  Knowing a lot and thinking you are something does not really get put to the test until you act as such.

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 12:37:16 PM   
SunnyTawse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Asmodeus

Call me elitist if you like, but I'm a firm believer that online experience with BDSM is as applicable to real life as playing WoW or Everquest.  Fantasy is fine, but it seems that many think it crosses over to reality when applied to online D/s roleplay.


Yes.

The problem is that those who haven't done r/t at all don't (forgive the cliche) know what they're missing.

Buddhism is a good example. Take Alan Watts. He writes knowledgeably and very movingly about the Buddhist experience, but he doesn't have a practice--he doesn't meditate, he hasn't chosen another Dharma path, etc. Writing about satori, for example, all he can do is re-interpret what he's heard others say of their satori experiences. So by the time the reader gets the information, it's third-hand. The beauty of a live teacher is the teaching is tailored individually to the times, to the culture, and even to the student; coming from a great depth of personal experience, it can illuminate and guide in a way that reading Alan Watts can never do. (And yeah--I do have some of Alan Watts' stuff, and I do love it. But I don't mistake him for a teacher.)

When my submissive first came into the r/t community, he told people he'd been researching bdsm for the two years; in fact, he'd been reading and looking at bdsm porn for two years. I tend to think of researching to mean academic journals and papers, or at the least, sexuality.com and the like. Even then, would he have been prepared for his experiences over the last year, year and a half? I don't know. But how would he have known what he was missing?

It's impossible for someone permiated with cyber bdsm to know how badly a Dominant can feel when a stroke with a heavy leather strap goes awry (never mind how bad the submissive feels), or how thrilled a Dominant can feel when a touch of her palm on the skin of a well-beaten back brings a shiver of pleasure to the submissive.

Online and chatrooms are lots of fun. That's what they are--fun and games. Why should anyone expect them to be more?

Sunny Tawse
Sadien Domina
(44 years a Buddhist and many years fewer a Dominant)

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 12:43:45 PM   
ExSteelAgain


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What Christian Barnard did was relatively easy. Doing the transplant was the easy part and that's why his patients died very quickly. What made heart transplants possible was the development of cyclosporins to prevent rejection which took years of study and research.

Now, I didn't pick the example of the Buddhist, that was the one given. How would you describe those who have not been in relationships for many years? Are they still Dominant or submissive? If in their mind they fit a description they learned by reading and it is one they believe in, who am I to say they are not there?

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 12:49:51 PM   
DesFIP


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It depends. Someone who has gotten his practical experience on how to do bondage from porn is not someone I would let tie me up. But someone who has taken classes and workshops, read and reread all the appropriate books and practiced ties on his own legs, and body pillows is likely not to do anything wrong.

I don't want anyone who has never before used a singletail to use it on me. But if he's taken workshops, and spent a year practicing hitting pillows, moving up to hitting a playing card dangling on a clothesline in the breeze, until he has pinpoint accuracy is likely to be very competent. Even if I proved to be his first partner.

You can learn martial arts without ever having to use it for real. But if the situation comes up, I would be perfectly fine accompanied by a black belt who has only competed for tenplus years, while never before needing to defend himself from a mugger.

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 1:08:33 PM   
DominantJenny


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FR

I think it's more like the analogy of sexual orientation. While I suppose some people have to actually have sex with someone before they know whether they are straight or gay or bi, plenty of people don't have to. And the known-within sexual orientation of a virgin of any stripe is not, imo, something anyone has a right to question. People may sometimes be surprised when life offers them the opportunity to explore in full, but, ime, that's going to be a fairly small minority of people, mostly ones who never actually thought about it, had some kind of issue, etc.

I knew I was sexually sadistic long before I had the opportunity to express it. That doesn't mean I thought theory was the same as practice when it came to skill, which is an ENTIRELY different thing and certainly silly to presume. It means that I didn't have to bite someone live and in person to know that it was gonna make me wet when I did.

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 1:20:22 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

: Original
:
softpjos

The fact that the person is willing to be honest and upfront about their level of *hands on experience* should count for something :)



I am not disputing this at all.  I happen to think that it is more admirable to specifically say that someone doesn't have hands on experience.  I believe it is a much safer approach for a lot of things in life.  Not just for themselves, but for the other person potentially involved as well.

Without knowing what the context was meant from the original person I quoted, it's hard to say what the lack of experience is.  It could be a D/s dynamic.  It could be certain skills.  It could be play.  There's no way to know without the reference.  The only thing that I can do is make assumptions.

This brings to mind something that I have mentioned here numerous times.  I happen to think it is easier for a female on either side of the kneel, to gain experience than her male counterparts.  For example, I could go to a BDSM club, where no one had ever met Me (that would take some traveling these days, but I could do it), show up with My toybag, and I'd be willing to bet that I would have no trouble finding someone to play with.  (That's not ego driven, btw.  Ask any female dominant.)  In the same situation, a male is not going to find the same opportunity.  It is completely gender biased. 

Where does this leave our male friends?  Well, it puts them in the position of having to make more attempts to gain practical experience.  They might have to go to more demos and play parties to receive the fewer opportunities.  Still, I think if it is something they want, they should apply themselves to their goal of gaining experience.  I've had to watch My husband do this, as he was learning to Top.  Not always the easiest thing to do.  There have literally been several play parties where I was busy with multiple scenes, and he's fallen asleep due to the late hour and non-activity. Because of this, I've been very well exposed to the bias in the scene that is completely due to the factors of gender and inexperience.

Still, I tend to think that, if a person keeps making the attempt to gain experience, sooner or later, they will gain some.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 1:33:04 PM   
SunnyTawse


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Sure, someone can "be dominant." But "in the lifestyle"? Where I might agree that softpjOS's husband is "in the lifestyle" because he's gone to munches and events and is closely involved with a kinky person, online experience only will never mean that to me for reasons I previously mentioned. Those who have online relationships and have only had online relationships may FEEL they are in the lifestyle but until they practice D/s with a live person--and practice D/s with a live person over a significant period of time, whatever that means--how can they know what "in the lifestyle" means? We're doing people a disservice to state or imply they will. It can be quite a shock to come up against reality when one's idea of it consists of physical impossibilities and the complete lack of consequences for one's actions.

Sunny Tawse
Archon of Rings
http://AthenorLodge.com

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 1:45:01 PM   
Owner4SexSlave


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Well, there's knowledge, experience, common sense and attitude.   I think each one needs to run hand and hand.

At any point in time an experienced person can jump out of the lifestyle, just as much as an inexperienced person can jump into the lifestyle.

In terms of orientation, that's a bit of combination of personality, taste and desire.  Orientation is not a matter of knowledge or experience.  So some people will be what they are, regardless of what they know or have done.

I do feel that knowledge about any topic is a great thing to know.  In regards to somebody being in the lifestyle or not.   That's a matter of personal choice.

The day an inexperienced person with a little knowledge says, hey I want to be in the lifestyle, is simply the start of an interesting path in their life.

Experience is rather subjective, for instance I have Zero Experience at restaining somebody up to a Water Toture Wheel.  Yet, I have BDSM experience that goes back into my teenage years.  Now, I'm confident that with a little research, and hooking up with others in Water Torture Wheels.  That I go give it a go, after I trust myself enough with this activitity.  I would not want to drown somebody to death.

It all depends upon the scope of activitity in BDSM.   In terms of basic D/s, not too difficult for anybody to play boss and order another person around, make requests and simply take charge.   I'm certain most submissives know how to do this based on thier own knowledge and experiences in the hands of Dom/me.  However, does this make them a Dom/me?  Only if they one day, decide they want to be or whatever reason.

Things like Wax play, if somebody trusts another human being to do it, and they take care and consideration.  Why not?   I still remember way back a long time ago, when I first started playing with Wax.  Actually got involved in this activitity from making wax coated candle holders out of glass Coke Bottles.  Go figure, me and the girl next door ended up playing more and more.  Until we were almost totally getting naked with one another dripping wax all over each other.  Testing things out on ourselves and exploring it together.   Slowly pushing the limits.   We sure as hell were not making wax coated candle holders out of bottles anymore.   I still remember cleaning floor up the better part of a night because of it.  That was a priceless experience about properly protecting the floor.

It's rather difficult for me to answer threads like this.  I actually did rape scenes, bondage and many things before I discovered their was a lifestyle for this madness.

I think common sense along with knowledge about dangers involved in what you are doing works wonders though.  Then having somebody you communicate with, trust and explore things at a sane pace with.

However, does knowledge alone mean somebody is in "the lifestyle", only if they want it to be, where they want to take the steps towards gaining experience. 

Actually, many people have various experiences in life that apply very well.  Some of these experiences are from childhood, for teenage years or whatever else.  Like anything else though, the more you do, the better you get at it.   The more comfortable you are with things, the more you come to understand yourself and your partners.

Whenever you get a new partner, in many ways, it's like starting over again, exploring things with somebody new for the first time.   It's bit like taking a trip to some place you have been before, you more less know the road, the curves and speed bumps and how things should go.

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 1:46:33 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SunnyTawse
Yes.

The problem is that those who haven't done r/t at all don't (forgive the cliche) know what they're missing.

Buddhism is a good example. Take Alan Watts. He writes knowledgeably and very movingly about the Buddhist experience, but he doesn't have a practice--he doesn't meditate, he hasn't chosen another Dharma path, etc. Writing about satori, for example, all he can do is re-interpret what he's heard others say of their satori experiences. So by the time the reader gets the information, it's third-hand. The beauty of a live teacher is the teaching is tailored individually to the times, to the culture, and even to the student; coming from a great depth of personal experience, it can illuminate and guide in a way that reading Alan Watts can never do. (And yeah--I do have some of Alan Watts' stuff, and I do love it. But I don't mistake him for a teacher.)

When my submissive first came into the r/t community, he told people he'd been researching bdsm for the two years; in fact, he'd been reading and looking at bdsm porn for two years. I tend to think of researching to mean academic journals and papers, or at the least, sexuality.com and the like. Even then, would he have been prepared for his experiences over the last year, year and a half? I don't know. But how would he have known what he was missing?

It's impossible for someone permiated with cyber bdsm to know how badly a Dominant can feel when a stroke with a heavy leather strap goes awry (never mind how bad the submissive feels), or how thrilled a Dominant can feel when a touch of her palm on the skin of a well-beaten back brings a shiver of pleasure to the submissive.

Online and chatrooms are lots of fun. That's what they are--fun and games. Why should anyone expect them to be more?

Sunny Tawse
Sadien Domina
(44 years a Buddhist and many years fewer a Dominant)

First, thank you for saying it was a good example.  It was the only lifestyle choice that I could think of that happened to include, what I thought was a play on letters.  BuDdhiSM .  Sometimes, I'm smarter than I look.  I most certainly hope that I did not offend any actual Buddhist, such as yourself.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to SunnyTawse)
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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 1:57:17 PM   
RedMagic1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
You can learn martial arts without ever having to use it for real. But if the situation comes up, I would be perfectly fine accompanied by a black belt who has only competed for tenplus years, while never before needing to defend himself from a mugger.

I agree with the rest of what you wrote, Ms. Celeste, but I question this, and I think this is the heart of the matter.

Sparring in a gym is not the same as taking someone down in real life, or getting taken down and ending up in a hospital.  Not only is it different in-the-moment, it requires fundamentally different short-term and long-term emotion processing afterward. 

Preparing for something is not the same as the doing of the thing.  I'm in the "online isn't real" camp -- and maybe I'm harder-core than some people, because I believe that online BDSM and relationshiping is a negative -- not just a different kink -- because it encourages people to worship a mirage, instead of exploring reality.


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 2:24:49 PM   
SunnyTawse


Posts: 151
Joined: 11/17/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

First, thank you for saying it was a good example.  It was the only lifestyle choice that I could think of that happened to include, what I thought was a play on letters.  BuDdhiSM .  Sometimes, I'm smarter than I look.  I most certainly hope that I did not offend any actual Buddhist, such as yourself.




Nah, you didn't offend me at all.

BuDdhiSM... fun!

(in reply to LadyPact)
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