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Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 2:20:42 PM   
Thadius


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Well Obama delivered his speech today in Berlin, to what police estimate as 200,000, which is his biggest concert to date.  Overall the speech was good, you could tell from his words he was attempting to mark it as a historical speech.  The recurring theme was a comparison to the airlifts after WWII.  With the continued reminder of this is the moment...  For a full transcript http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/07/24/raw-data-transcript-of-obamas-speech-in-berlin/ .  There were a few things that made me raise an eyebrow, so I figured I would share my thoughts, and hope to get your opinions.

"This is the moment when we must build on the wealth that opens markets have created and share its benefits more equitably. Trade has been a cornerstone of our growth and global development, but we will not be able to sustain this growth if it favors the few and not the many.
Together — together, we must forge trade that truly rewards the work that creates wealth, with meaningful protections for our people and our planet. This is the moment for trade that is free and fair for all."

On this I will just let what CNN reported say it all.
quote:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/24/amanpour.obama/
The top EU trade official is already offering this caution to Obama on NAFTA: stop the crowd pleasing rhetoric, and be serious about U.S. commitment to free trade and unfettered markets.


"As we speak, cars in Boston and factories in Beijing are melting the ice caps in the Arctic, shrinking coastlines in the Atlantic, and bringing drought to farms from Kansas to Kenya."

I am not even sure I want to remark on this one, it pretty much speaks for itself... Hey you Bostonians, think of us that enjoy food, and stop driving.

"No one welcomes war. I recognize the enormous difficulties in Afghanistan. But my country and yours have a stake in seeing that NATO’s first mission beyond Europe’s borders is a success. For the people of Afghanistan, and for our shared security, the work must be done.
America can’t do this alone. The Afghan people need our troops and your troops, our support and your support to defeat the Taliban and Al Qaida, to develop their economy, and to help them rebuild their nation. We have too much at stake to turn back now."

While I agree with him that we need to help secure Afghanistan, for all of those reasons... Isn't there just as much at stake in Iraq?  Perhaps even more, including the obvious strategic oil implications?  Where would the Iraqis be if we had followed Obama's policies?  The thought of it scares me.


"The genocide in Darfur shames the conscience of us all..... Will we give meaning to the words “never again” in Darfur?" 

What did he say last year?

quote:


“Well, look, if that’s the criteria by which we are making decisions on the deployment of U.S. forces, then by that argument you would have 300,000 troops in the Congo right now — where millions have been slaughtered as a consequence of ethnic strife — which we haven’t done,” Obama said in an interview with The Associated Press.
“We would be deploying unilaterally and occupying the Sudan, which we haven’t done. Those of us who care about Darfur don’t think it would be a good idea,” he said.


I guess sometimes "never again" means not right now.  At what point does he think we should step in and stop Genocide?  What does warrant the use of the military for humanitarian reasons?

"But I come before you to say that we are heirs to a struggle for freedom. We are a people of improbable hope. With an eye towards the future, with resolve in our heart, let us remember this history, and answer our destiny, and remake the world once again."

quote:

http://www.rjchq.org/news.asp?FormMode=Detail&id=1330
"Senator Obama in Jordan today said that terrorism makes 'Israelis want to dig in and simply think about their own security regardless of what's going on beyond their borders.' What Senator Obama fails to recognize is that the safety and security of its citizenry is the primary obligation of a country's leadership.
In essence, Senator Obama is asking Israelis and the American Jewish community to put terrorism in context. Senator Obama continues his rhetoric of moral equivalence by implying that measures taken by Israel to protect its citizens are on par with the Palestinians' frustration at border checkpoints. Senator Obama's attempt at even-handed diplomacy fails to hold Palestinians accountable for using terrorist tactics against innocent Israeli citizens as a means to achieve their ends."


And finally,

"This is the moment when we must come together to save this planet. Let us resolve that we will not leave our children to a world where the oceans rise, and famine spreads, and terrible storms devastate our lands."

I am glad that Obama thinks that we can stop all of those things from happening, this all must be part of his proposed research into new technologies.  I can't wait for the day that we have a technology to stop terrible storms from hitting land... Would this be some sort of dome?  I cannot fathom what fantasy he is living in, but how does he propose to stop tornadoes from touching down?  Perhaps it is part of his new math on casualties... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=185iI_nXYRY For the record there were 12 total deaths.

Well I will leave it like that for now, I look forward to the discussions, and lets at least keep it on topic (ie. the speach, policies and ideas mentioned in the speech, location of the speech, etc..)

I wish you all well,
Thadius

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RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 2:41:41 PM   
pahunkboy


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mccain told him to go over there.  ....


funny how teh challenges where Obama is suppose to look silly- dont work.

I noticed that the hard right are in a pattern of fake facts,...they come up with an antidote and with no questioning of it the story is true.  Sort of a blur between reality and fantasy.

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RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 2:48:57 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

mccain told him to go over there.  ....


funny how teh challenges where Obama is suppose to look silly- dont work.

I noticed that the hard right are in a pattern of fake facts,...they come up with an antidote and with no questioning of it the story is true.  Sort of a blur between reality and fantasy.



McCain told him to go to Germany?  Uhm... I posted the transcript to his speech today... where is the questioning of if the story is true or not?

Did you have anything specific or general you wanted to comment on the speech?

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RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 3:00:32 PM   
pahunkboy


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the speech was good.

but reading the text of it- [the entire text is on huffington]   he is abit fixated on the past.   todays kids have no memory of 60 years ago.  that era has pasted.  the vets are dying off.  tho it was his 1st spech there..so in that regard it worked.

How can it be that he is criticised for being on foreigen soil- and yet the office of presidnecy is spoken as "leader of the free world"  so in this regard he is right on.

I am still hoping for a dream team...tho he and Ron Paul would be interesting.  Obama and Pauls line of reasoning is something I can follow.

IMO Obama can represent America - seeing the troops welcome him was interesting.   Obama needs a cram session with ROn Paul

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RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 3:09:05 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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The EU trade dude can bite my rosey red asscheeks, and so can the rest of those who want "free trade" to be the standard under which we all rally.
 
Frankly, what the vast majority mean by "free trade" is - we steal your jobs, make what you Used to make, and sell it to you at a higher cost than it had when you were making it, oh and don't forget to thank us while you're at it - we're a "global community" after all.

quote:

I guess sometimes "never again" means not right now.  At what point does he think we should step in and stop Genocide?  What does warrant the use of the military for humanitarian reasons?
  Why, when there's monitary gain to be had by those directly backing whoever sits in the Big Chair, of course!  (and if ya can't hear the sarcasm there, let me send you the name of a good audiologist so you can get hearing aids... )

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RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 3:12:37 PM   
philosophy


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.....a political commentator on the CBC today said something along the lines of  "Obama wants, when a US president goes abroad, people from other countries to wave the US flag rather than burn it".

This speech, it seems to me, was more about perception of the US abroad rather than for home consumption. GWB destroyed a lot of faith that many in other countries had in the US. Some may think that unimportant.......it is not. Obama appears to be trying to rebuild some of that faith........we have yet to hear anything from McCain.

< Message edited by philosophy -- 7/24/2008 3:13:07 PM >

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RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 3:16:56 PM   
bipolarber


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Oh, but we have heard from McCain...

(You remember... sing along with me!)*

"Bomb, bomb, bomb... bomb, bomb Iran..."


*to the tune of the Beach Boys "Barbera Ann"

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RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 3:23:26 PM   
Bethnai


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So, he pretty much said that we weren't leaving the ME and he wants support from Germany and he tried to use the rhetoric  of how Germany was aided by the US during a perilous time and shouldn't they be damn grateful for it and thus indebted. 

What matters is his reception to his speech.  Angela Merkels response, and what it means in dollars to the Germans and other Europeans.


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RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 3:28:43 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

.....a political commentator on the CBC today said something along the lines of  "Obama wants, when a US president goes abroad, people from other countries to wave the US flag rather than burn it".

This speech, it seems to me, was more about perception of the US abroad rather than for home consumption. GWB destroyed a lot of faith that many in other countries had in the US. Some may think that unimportant.......it is not. Obama appears to be trying to rebuild some of that faith........we have yet to hear anything from McCain.


I agree that relations across the big pond have been strained, and have been for more than just the last 7 years.  There is definitely work to be done, on both sides of the Atlantic.  This was a campaign stop, paid for by his presidential campaign, as opposed to the tax payed "fact finding" part of the trip.

So if this part of the trip was funded by his campaign, it was meant to deliver a message to the folks at home.  It was designed to mimic past presidents that gave speeches in Berlin, like Kennedy and Reagan; and thus give him some more credibility in his foreign policy.  I am glad they didn't allow him to stage this at the Brandenburg Gate.

As a quick side note...

quote:

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/07/24/obama-cancels-visit-to-us-troops-in-germany/ 

Barack Obama’s campaign said Thursday that the Illinois senator opted not to visit U.S. troops at military facilities in Germany because it would be “inappropriate” to make such a stop on the campaign-funded leg of his trip.
The German magazine Der Spiegel reported earlier that Obama canceled a visit to the Landstuhl Regional Medical Center, a military hospital in Germany, and the Ramstein Air Base.
The report came as Obama prepared to speak to thousands at a high-profile address in Berlin.
Obama spokesman Robert Gibbs released a statement saying Obama originally wanted to visit troops at Landstuhl to “express his gratitude for their service and sacrifice,” and noted that he already visited troops in Iraq while he was part of an official congressional delegation.
But he said the second leg of Obama’s trip was different.
“The senator decided out of respect for these servicemen and women that it would be inappropriate to make a stop to visit troops at a U.S. military facility as part of a trip funded by the campaign,” Gibbs said.
John McCain spokesman Brian Rogers said, “Barack Obama is wrong. It is never inappropriate to visit our men and women in the military.”


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RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 3:53:35 PM   
slvemike4u


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Thadius it was a political speech and as such I think he did a masterful job in setting lofty goals and giving voice to high ideals...and did it with out tripping over the English language.

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RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 4:06:02 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Oh, but we have heard from McCain...

(You remember... sing along with me!)*

"Bomb, bomb, bomb... bomb, bomb Iran..."


*to the tune of the Beach Boys "Barbera Ann"


Second chorus..."Bomb bom bomb... Bomb Bomb Pakistan"
Music by the Beach Boys, Lyrics by Barack Hussein Obama.

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RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 4:22:05 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

The EU trade dude can bite my rosey red asscheeks, and so can the rest of those who want "free trade" to be the standard under which we all rally.
 
Frankly, what the vast majority mean by "free trade" is - we steal your jobs, make what you Used to make, and sell it to you at a higher cost than it had when you were making it, oh and don't forget to thank us while you're at it - we're a "global community" after all.



So who is stealing your job ? Most manufacturing is being outsourced by your own companies, to gain access to cheap labour. Just the same as companies in Europe and here in the UK are doing.

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RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 4:22:52 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Thadius it was a political speech and as such I think he did a masterful job in setting lofty goals and giving voice to high ideals...and did it with out tripping over the English language.


Mike,

Like I said in my original post, I thought the speech was good.

I also found it a bit strange that he felt the need to state this, and that it was not even close to accurate (unless he is comparing himself to actual presidents).

quote:


I come to Berlin as so many of my countrymen have come before, although tonight I speak to you not as a candidate for president, but as a citizen, a proud citizen of the United States and a fellow citizen of the world.
I know that I don’t look like the Americans who’ve previously spoken in this great city.
emphasis is mine.

What 2 Americans have done a whole lot of  speaking in Berlin and Gemany over the last 20 years?  I can clearly think of Secretaries of State Powell and Rice...  so why even bring up the difference in "looks"?  Do you see what I mean? 

Thadius



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RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 4:28:02 PM   
slvemike4u


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Well being that he said he did not come as a candidate for President...I thought the meaning was clear....and what he was conveying is consistent with the theme of his campaign...He might have skipped the point,but it's not like it doesn't get noticed anyway this is a man of color running for the highest office in the land...it would be disingenuous to ignore that

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 4:48:51 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Well being that he said he did not come as a candidate for President...I thought the meaning was clear....and what he was conveying is consistent with the theme of his campaign...He might have skipped the point,but it's not like it doesn't get noticed anyway this is a man of color running for the highest office in the land...it would be disingenuous to ignore that


It is definitely noticable, and it would be a shame to ignore the historical importance of the success he has achieved in becoming the presumptive nominee of a major political party.  I just don't understand why he feels the need to state the obvious over and over.  I don't know, I guess what I am trying to say is that he is an American man running for president that happens to be black, and with the way he sometimes states things, it comes off sounding more like I am running for president because I am black.  I am more interested in the planned policies of the candidates than what race or religion they are.  Perhaps, I am just becoming hyper sensitive to things like this.

Just my thoughts,
Thadius

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 6:49:38 PM   
cloudboy


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Yes, BUSH would have drawn a hostile crowd.

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RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 6:54:45 PM   
slvemike4u


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Thadius if I thought he was the presumptive nominee because he was black....I would be looking for a third party candidate to vote for.In my opinion he is the candidate who happens to be black and offers a change in direction...someone who will move this country to the left...hopefully achieving the middle...and in the process repairing some of the damage done during the steady slide to the right of the past 7 1/2 yrs.If the fact that he's black gives this country a chance to reexamine and rededicate itself to a "more perfect union",if his oratory can inspire those who might not have felt their grip on the American Dream was as strong as others.....well being black and the Presumptive Nominee of a major political party in America is a big deal is it not...and that too is the order of things!!!!

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 6:58:53 PM   
Vendaval


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I saw part of the speech tonight and like the fact that he is willing to acknowledge the recent problems between the US and Europe.  In regards to mentioning his racial background, he needs to acknowledge the issue rather than pretending it does not exist.  IMO.

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RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 7:11:04 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Thadius if I thought he was the presumptive nominee because he was black....I would be looking for a third party candidate to vote for.In my opinion he is the candidate who happens to be black and offers a change in direction...someone who will move this country to the left...hopefully achieving the middle...and in the process repairing some of the damage done during the steady slide to the right of the past 7 1/2 yrs.If the fact that he's black gives this country a chance to reexamine and rededicate itself to a "more perfect union",if his oratory can inspire those who might not have felt their grip on the American Dream was as strong as others.....well being black and the Presumptive Nominee of a major political party in America is a big deal is it not...and that too is the order of things!!!!


I can agree with you on everything except the steady slide over the last 7.5 years... the slide has been going on much longer than that.

See it happened before Nov.

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RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. - 7/24/2008 7:27:50 PM   
slvemike4u


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Sorry Thadius,maybe it's the jack daniels but that last about it happened before Nov..i didn't catch your meaning...sorry

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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