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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/24/2008 9:10:27 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		So a social setting in which one man takes the measure of another,possibly a frank exchange of viewpoints take place......and you assert that in no way qualifies as experience.....tell me short of actually being allowed by bushie to sit in the Office and play with the White house switchboard how would he gain this experience...briefings all thru the day introductions to the various leaders,a chance to talk with Merkel and you see no experience

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to bipolarber)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/24/2008 9:14:19 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

Actually his campaign paid for the Germany leg of the tour.


Oops, my bad. 

quote:

Slaveboy are you actually asking me if this trip qualifies as foreign affairs experience.Let me ask you how it could not...he has sat with heads of states heard their views on the issues confronting them exchanged his views on what his actions has Head of State would be...in what way could that not be experience 


Mike are you kidding me?  He is campaigning.  He's not in serious negotiations with heads of state.  He's taking photo op tours and being wined and dined just in case he wins.  It's only 3 months to go, and he still hasn't laid out any definitive plans to accomplish any of the crap that he's spewing. 




He`s one of two guys who`ll be running the country soon.It`s completely normal for prospectives to meet with and exchange thoughts,give assurances,etc. with political/military leaders.

He looked good and walked right,shook a few hands and didn`t fuck up much.

That`s all that happened.Nothing more,nothing less.

You strike me as someone who doesn`t believe the hype or follow the crowd.

It`s ok to be suspicious of someone who is as dynamic and charismatic as Obama.

But I think there`s more to the man than glitz and happy talk.

He`s a very involved and well studied guy,with deep insights.He`s the opposite of the simpleton neo-con.

He`s no saint and doesn`t claim to be.His followers are another subject and quite remarkable by themselves.To them he`s a saint,but there are folks who feel that way about Bush,Clinton and Reagan.

I tell people to listen to the subject matter and not the hype.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 7/24/2008 9:15:40 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/24/2008 9:23:32 PM   
MissSCD


Posts: 1185
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline 		I agree with this statement.   McCain suggested that Obama go to Europe, and Obama capitlized on it.
I am not sure of the Obama platform quite yet, but I know one thing, he can make a speech.  I am inspired by him. 
No way is McCain going in.  He is to war orientated, an too old.
 
I am so curious to see who Obama's running mate will be.  This is one convention I will watch very closely. 
 
Regards, MissSCD
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Poor McCain.  When he suggested that Obama go overseas, this was NOT what he was expecting.

Curious that Obama's lost a little ground to him in the polls meanwhile, according to CNN.


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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/24/2008 9:30:18 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

So a social setting in which one man takes the measure of another,possibly a frank exchange of viewpoints take place......and you assert that in no way qualifies as experience.....tell me short of actually being allowed by bushie to sit in the Office and play with the White house switchboard how would he gain this experience...briefings all thru the day introductions to the various leaders,a chance to talk with Merkel and you see no experience


I won't comment on the switchboard other than to say, he already admitted he had problems pushing buttons on important votes.

I will concede the point that meeting with foreign leaders is definitely a notch on the experience belt.  As for some practical experience the man is the chair of a pretty important sub committee (one that technically oversees our involvement with NATO), and hasn't done a thing with it.   http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4831238 

It was a fairly positive trip for him, and I think many are surprised that he didn't get a bump in polls back home.


_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 3:31:40 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


200,000 came to see him speak. The speech was great. See it here:

Berlin Speech -- Scroll down for MSNBC Feed.



The German public love him but I have heard their politicians are a little more sceptical, as the public in other Europeans countries appear to be. It is difficult to see how he could deliver what he implies he wants to deliver without putting the Washington establishment against the wall in Bolshevik style. I fear the German public are in for a nasty surprise, at the moment he is so vague and anyone could believe in him which I suppose is the aim, the Presidential election is a beauty contest and hard policy gets in the way.

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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 5:02:33 AM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
I will concede the point that meeting with foreign leaders is definitely a notch on the experience belt.  As for some practical experience the man is the chair of a pretty important sub committee (one that technically oversees our involvement with NATO), and hasn't done a thing with it.

It was a fairly positive trip for him, and I think many are surprised that he didn't get a bump in polls back home.


Perhaps, given the current mood in Europe, there isn't all that much he can do with his chairmanship.
 
As far as polls, I don't buy then ... but do see a tactical mistake made in his speech. Mentioning torture and the rule of law here in the United States, is something he should say every day. It's that important a point. But ... airing our dirty laundry in a foreign nation ... not such a good plan. The same holds true of his words on immigration, etc ...
 
Senator Obama needs to stop playing to the base that will already be voting for him, and say and do things that will attract swing voters.

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 5:13:21 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		I am a bit wary of polls myself, but all of the major polls have shown no bounce, and some even show that he has lost ground in major battleground states.  Something is going on.

Airing dirty laundry on foreign soil is the en vogue thing to do... 

The real mistake of his trip there, was the cancelling of the visits to the 2 military installations... if he was concerned about it being seen as wrong because he was on a campaign trip, he could have always visited them without the press in tow.  I mean the time was already planned for, so the not visiting was clearly a political decision.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 5:15:10 AM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, HOW DARE he talk down the US policies of the last 8 years in another country! Let's all start burning his CD's, and call him in the middle of the night to make death threats! Just like we all did to the Dixie Chicks for having the affrontery to critisize George Bush! (Never mind that we HAVE made huge mistakes about torture, and being internatinal scofflaws for the last two terms...)

But you know, there was probably something wrong with the footage of that speech yesterday... All the American flags in the crowd weren't burning... and people were actually holding up pro-American signs... I know what must've happened! They went out to German central casting, and hired 200,000+ extras! That must be it! (Lord knows it couldn't be that they see in Obama an end to this nightmare Presidency, a restoration of sanity... nah, that can't be it.)

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 5:22:45 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Making a speech in Europe and not mentioning a desire to return America to a Nation governed by the Rule of Law would have been a mistake.The theme of his campaign has been change....the rest of the world ,Europe in particular has watched our internal dialogue over torture ,it is not as if this is a strictly domestic issue that should best not be talked about in public

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 5:31:35 AM   
MissSCD


Posts: 1185
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline 		I hate to break the news to you, but the policies of the last 16 years is wrong.
We need change now. We will get it very easily.  You all had your eight years. Let someone else try.
The Bush administration is the worst since Hoover.
 
Regards, Regards, and saluations.
 
MissSCD

quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Yeah, HOW DARE he talk down the US policies of the last 8 years in another country! Let's all start burning his CD's, and call him in the middle of the night to make death threats! Just like we all did to the Dixie Chicks for having the affrontery to critisize George Bush! (Never mind that we HAVE made huge mistakes about torture, and being internatinal scofflaws for the last two terms...)

But you know, there was probably something wrong with the footage of that speech yesterday... All the American flags in the crowd weren't burning... and people were actually holding up pro-American signs... I know what must've happened! They went out to German central casting, and hired 200,000+ extras! That must be it! (Lord knows it couldn't be that they see in Obama an end to this nightmare Presidency, a restoration of sanity... nah, that can't be it.)

(in reply to bipolarber)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 5:31:49 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Making a speech in Europe and not mentioning a desire to return America to a Nation governed by the Rule of Law would have been a mistake.The theme of his campaign has been change....the rest of the world ,Europe in particular has watched our internal dialogue over torture ,it is not as if this is a strictly domestic issue that should best not be talked about in public


Not to cast any negative comparisons on Obama, or to even suggest he feels the same way, but wouldn't that be the same as what Jane Fonda did.
I mean the stating of her opinion on a topic being vigorously debated in public, and doing so while sitting in an enemy anti aircraft gun?  I know that is an extreme example, but isn't the concept the same?

Like I said, I thought it was a mostly positive speech, except for the few things I pointed out in the other thread and his choice to skip the troop visits.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 5:39:09 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Yeah, HOW DARE he talk down the US policies of the last 8 years in another country! Let's all start burning his CD's, and call him in the middle of the night to make death threats! Just like we all did to the Dixie Chicks for having the affrontery to critisize George Bush! (Never mind that we HAVE made huge mistakes about torture, and being internatinal scofflaws for the last two terms...)

But you know, there was probably something wrong with the footage of that speech yesterday... All the American flags in the crowd weren't burning... and people were actually holding up pro-American signs... I know what must've happened! They went out to German central casting, and hired 200,000+ extras! That must be it! (Lord knows it couldn't be that they see in Obama an end to this nightmare Presidency, a restoration of sanity... nah, that can't be it.)


Actually, there were bans on signs that the Obama campaign didn't hand out and the visible crowd was in a security pen.  You can read about all of those things at Deutsche Welle's website, and others.

I enjoy your rhetoric, especially the description of the US as international scofflaws only over the last 2 terms.

Have a great day,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 5:49:40 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Well, some are missing the point, perhaps.
 
Senator Obama likely already has bipolarber's vote, and reluctantly has mine.
 
He needs to be doing things to rally the support of moderates, and many moderates cast a gloomy eye at our "friends" in Europe. Right or wrong (and he is right), it comes down to a simple formula. All his good works count for nothing, it he loses the election.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 5:53:25 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Of course the 200,000 number wasn't hurt by the fact that there was a free Rock Concert held as part of the pre speach event.
Not that there wouldn't have been a large crowd anyway but the numbers certainly were not hurt by it.

His speaches always tend to inspire, he's had great training in public speaking, and I said he would be a potential candidate when he spoke at the Democratic Convention. The Iraq/ Afghanistan part of the trip tugh left me flat since the report is that he went he heard the Generals tell him thefacts but he had already made up his mind about what to do. Several flubs during that reporting run are not going to help him.

The Berlin speech didn't disapoint on the crowd or the delivery, but still the problem of being long on inspiration and short on execution details. But it's only a speachand you can't expect a full policy roll out.
Still left with feelings unchanged about Obama being left of the American center by too much for me.





(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 7:03:56 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Hate`n,hate`n,hate`n.

Don`t hate the playa....

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 7:06:11 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		Yes, but we now hold the mantle of the new Russians. Our reckless foreign policy and lawlessness (rendition, unilateralism, failure to sign on with the world court, and self serving rhetoric) is why foreigners are upset about the USA. So, I must disagree with you you. Obama is just acknowledging what a lot of Europeans feel, see, and recognize instead of blowing them off. This is a smart move.

US interests will be better served by cooperating and engendering closer relations with our allies.
Right now we spend 2x what the next ten nations of the world combined spend on "defense."

Well, I would like to see us reduce this spending without compromising our security. To do this, we need to ramp up our alliances.

(Actually, our current levels of military spending are compromising our nation and turning it into a banana republic.)

"Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes … known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few.… No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."

James Madison

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 7/25/2008 7:26:16 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 8:22:39 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Fail to see any hate in what I said Owner but then again with the partisan bias you see hate in anyone who isn't lock step with the democratic messiah.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17927102/



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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 8:29:36 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Fail to see any hate in what I said Owner but then again with the partisan bias you see hate in anyone who isn't lock step with the democratic messiah.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17927102/





"playa-hate`n" = jealousy,envy.

I wasn`t calling you a hater or anything like that,Archer.

But I got the rock-star and you got Sen. McCheese.Ya pays ya money and ya takes ya choice.



_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 8:36:58 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		a free rock concert? are you sure? whom?

BTW-   look what he left out of the speach.

"come to America.  Shop. Shop for freedom. Together we can fight the evils of the meillania be participating in the market economy. It wont be easy. But I need your help to.  (enter your email adress as your baord the charter flight to New Yorks shopping district)"

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 8:40:39 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Fail to see any hate in what I said Owner but then again with the partisan bias you see hate in anyone who isn't lock step with the democratic messiah.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17927102/





"playa-hate`n" = jealousy,envy.

I wasn`t calling you a hater or anything like that,Archer.

But I got the rock-star and you got Sen. McCheese.Ya pays ya money and ya takes ya choice.




No I got Bob Barr not much better.

But far better deal than the Greens got themselves. LOL



< Message edited by Archer -- 7/25/2008 8:41:09 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 40
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