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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 2:20:49 PM   
cloudboy


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Well accomplishments and speeches are two separate animals. Philosophy probably put forth the most salient point -- which is an American spokesman who inspires flag waving before flag burning is no small thing.

Next, I don't view all political actions as political maneuvering --- so win or lose the moderate vote you say --- well, I don't see how asking the Europeans and us to get past our differences and work together alienates that constituency. Frankly, I think that's a secondary concern to Obama -- who will want to work with other nations together instead of alienating and pissing them off.

Whats different between me and others is that I think Obama does clearly believe in certain principles -- the thrust of which is to eliminate divide and conquer politics, polarization, unilateralism --- and to instead spot common interests to focus government action. I hope he can pull it off. Berlin is a great symbol for that theme --- showing how the US and Germany -- at war one moment --- became allies afterward. Mentioning NATO and the Marshall plan also demonstrate successful internationlist policy -- along the lines of which we might again rely to meet our foreign policy goals.

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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 2:56:07 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		General reply - Surely, it's not necessary to use jingoism to placate the American electorate, is it ? Yet again, it sounds as though some people are saying that garnering international support is akin to alienating the voters at home. Who are these people who still think in terms of 'them (the dirty foreigners) and us (the rigtheous)'? In the light of the appalling failure of recent foregin policy, these negative reactions are more than sad: they're pathetic.



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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 3:12:02 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

General reply - Surely, it's not necessary to use jingoism to placate the American electorate, is it ? Yet again, it sounds as though some people are saying that garnering international support is akin to alienating the voters at home. Who are these people who still think in terms of 'them (the dirty foreigners) and us (the rigtheous)'? In the light of the appalling failure of recent foregin policy, these negative reactions are more than sad: they're pathetic.




"The economy"....."health"....."arsing around in a foreign country"......."education".....

'Odd one out?

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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 3:17:47 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

"The economy"....."health"....."arsing around in a foreign country"......."education".....

'Odd one out?


Gay marriage.

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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 3:23:23 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

"The economy"....."health"....."arsing around in a foreign country"......."education".....

'Odd one out?


Gay marriage.



Do you always choose a non-existent option?

What's next? Eating an imaginary duck?

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 3:25:57 PM   
Raechard


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Status: offline 		It's a difficult balance because every society is basically nationalistic and therefore a leader doesn't want to give the impression approval is needed from external parties but try getting anything done in this global one economy world without a bit of give and take from those same external parties.

That being said I think travelling to Europe is a dangerous ploy because they have no vote and most people in the US know that Obama is probably the preferred choice in Europe so what does a visit there do other than alienate the types of American voter that hate a leader appearing to seek approval from other parts of the world? He would have been better advised to put off such a trip until after the result of the presidency.

I can’t see the advantage of this visit from a political point of view.


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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 3:29:35 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Do you always choose a non-existent option?



Only when I feel like being a smart arse. Or when I'm not taking an exam. Very occasionally, really  .



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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 5:45:11 PM   
cloudboy


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Well, there's also the implication that politicians need to lower themselves to win votes, or what otherwise might be known as the shit-head vote.

I'm glad that Obama doesn't do it (too much, at least.)

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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 6:04:36 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
General reply - Surely, it's not necessary to use jingoism to placate the American electorate, is it ? Yet again, it sounds as though some people are saying that garnering international support is akin to alienating the voters at home. Who are these people who still think in terms of 'them (the dirty foreigners) and us (the rigtheous)'? In the light of the appalling failure of recent foregin policy, these negative reactions are more than sad: they're pathetic.


That is exactly what I'm saying. Most of our electorate doesn't have a passport, has never been out of the country, and couldn't find Berlin on a map ... But, will get a vote none the less.
 
A reasonably substantial number feel that the only place we can still dominate the world, is militarily. Why anyone would want such a thing is beyond me ... but, the fact remains that many do, and they get a vote too.
 
Lets not forget, we are the country that elected President Bush. We are the country that elected him to a second term, when we knew he had lied to us in the first.
 
Senator Obama was my second choice, and is my first choice of those left in the race, but that doesn't mean I'm going to agree with everything he does, and if something seems silly to me, its worth commentary.
 
1. To repeat, you market to your actual target audience ... not the one you wish you had. Taken in political terms, you appeal to the voters you actually have, not the ones you wish you had.
 
2. Acting the Northern liberal elitist, is just a bad play. My parents weren't born the last time one of those sat in the White House. The last one that gave it a go, couldn't beat a candidate with a 30% approval rating, that lied to get us in a war.

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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 6:06:12 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
I'm glad that Obama doesn't do it (too much, at least.)


How glad will you be if Senator McCain, becomes President McCain?
 
Me, I'm going to be pissed!!!

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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 6:08:34 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		When a voter only has two candidates to choose from... she has to compromise. It's how the game is played: few candidates respond perfectly to all voters' concerns.

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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 6:17:17 PM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		Obviously ... but not the point really.
 
The point it, how will the far better candidate get elected, and by doing so, eliminate four more years of what we have had the last eight years?
 
The answer to that question, certainly isn't by airing dirty laundry abroad, discussing immigration (a very tough topic at home) in a foreign land, and passing up visiting our troops. Fuck, why not bring up our worthless healthcare system and abortion ... and go for the full monty?

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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 6:30:48 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Obama is villified whatever he does, or doesn't do - his political campaign is beyond complex. I trust his advisors balanced the pros and cons of every single one of his moves so far. If he makes strategic mistakes... so will the other side. As you say... it's a question of ensuring the better runner gets through the gates - I really want to trust the electorate this time around, I really do...

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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 6:37:48 PM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		Trust is like Tequila ... it feels good while you are drinking it, but in the morning, you are left feeling like shit and wondering why you can't find your panties.
 
I would just love to meet the person on Senator Obama's staff that weighed the pros and cons of not visiting American troops based abroad. I could then die knowing I met someone more stupid than me.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 7/25/2008 6:38:38 PM >

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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 6:55:36 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Yikes.

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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 7:59:28 PM   
cloudboy


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I always like how you are skeptical about Democracy. I can never deny you the circus show aspects of it.

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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 8:12:42 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

"The economy"....."health"....."arsing around in a foreign country"......."education".....

'Odd one out?


Gay marriage.



Do you always choose a non-existent option?

What's next? Eating an imaginary duck?
Perhaps the Kittin did not feel the need to be constrained by the options you presented.I for one don't see these things as mutually exclusive

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 7/25/2008 8:14:18 PM >

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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 8:15:55 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Perhaps the Kittin did not feel the need to be constrained by the options you presented.I for one don't see these things as mutually exclusive


Oh... oh, I think I like that. I like that a LOT :-) .

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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 8:23:24 PM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		My pleasure Kittin...It amazes me to hear people's outrage over Obama"airing dirty laundry"abroad..he covered no new ground with this,not like the rest of the world has not been watching our steady repudiation of the ideals this country was based on.Promising an international audience a return to OUR stated promise seemed fine to me..and more than that ,necessary after the bushie years

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Obama Electrifies Berlin - 7/25/2008 9:35:03 PM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		It amazes me how people can't see the difference between outrage over something, and the possibility that something said won't win a single fucking vote he isn't already getting and has the chance to sway some against him.
 
His words were well spoken, and I agree with them all. That said, saying them isn't a hill worth dying on.

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I wish I could buy back ...
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