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RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 11/16/2005 2:49:33 PM

Sensualips

Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
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I would agree this is not about being over 100 pounds or under 100 pounds. You ned to look at WHY not being allowed to lose weight makes you so miserable and depressed. What is it about being 103-106 that makes you so unhappy? Is ten pounds really going to have that big of impact on your state of mind / happiness -- more of an impact that your obedience and Dom's approval?

You say you don't THINK you will go back to being a "hard core" anorexic, but preoccupation with weigth and food and associating your happiness with it seems like it is still an issue. That is the core of any eating disorder.

(This advice from the woman that deals with stress with a carton of Ben and Jerry's. Mmmmm.)

(in reply to Dieplztks)

Post #: 21

RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 11/16/2005 2:51:07 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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Kyami, thats a wonderful idea. Meditation is a fantastic way to find your centre.
Peace and Love

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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Kyami)

Post #: 22

RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 11/16/2005 3:19:49 PM

ErosPsyche

Posts: 46
Joined: 11/5/2005
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I had a combination of anorexia and bulimia when I was younger. I was 80 pounds in the 9th & 10th grade and I am 5"2. I was in the hospital for months trying to get it under control and finally did when I realized that it was killing me.

Even as an adult, I find controlling my food hard for me, so I put that in the hands of Eros. He didn't understand at first why it was important for him to control what I ate, when I ate and the portions that I ate until I communicated with him about my past and how I felt. I know what it is like to "need" to feel in control of yourself in some parts of your world and when you feel out of control, there is one thing you can control and that is your food intake.

It is VERY important to sit down with your Master and help him to understand how you feel. Maybe get him to go with you to talk to someone. This is something very serious and while you need to get control of it, he needs to understand at some level how he can best help you. Healthy portions of food, several times a day is the best thing. You know that. While we say we won't go back to our old ways, if we get stressed, upset or mad we do in small ways revert back to our ED ways, forget to eat, fix the food but get busy and it gets cold, don't go to the grocery.....Been there done that many times. Just keep talking about it openly and honestly, you'll find your way.

(in reply to Kyami)

Post #: 23

RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 11/17/2005 6:39:56 AM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

I'm sorry, but I'm going to say it. Your Master for all of his good support is not a professional. You really should see a professional that specializes in ED and engage in a support group. In the meantime, your Master has the right idea. You may feel that you're fat at 100lbs, but that's actually about the correct weight for you. Being thinner than that CAN KILL YOU.

It takes a great deal of courage for you to come forward and admit the things that you have. Keep the momentum going and take care of yourself. Take care of your Master's property. I know easier said and done, but if you work a program everyday, it will become easier.

Good luck.

_____________________________

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The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to Kyami)

Post #: 24

RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 11/17/2005 8:11:00 AM

perfection20005

Posts: 419
Joined: 4/20/2005
Status: offline

I do not have an eating disorder, but I was a nurse. I saw firsthand how this can be very harmful. When you said you think that you will never go hardcore anorexic, is a warning sign. There is no such thing as hardcore or just a little anorexic, it is all the same thing. It is like an alcoholic saying "I can stop after one drink". You will always be anorexic, and you could fall back into a full blown problem at anytime. You say you don't have the means or time to find someone to talk to, but you really need to talk to someone. There are all kinds of free services out there, and as far as no time, you can always find time. Or you could just wait, and when you are full blown again, you would find the time in a hospital or in the grave. This isn't something to take lightly, so find some help soon.

_____________________________

perfection

"I took one look at Him, and I knew He was my Master."

(in reply to Dieplztks)

Post #: 25

RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 11/17/2005 9:12:44 AM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
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From: Davis, Ca
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Well said, Perfection.

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(in reply to perfection20005)

Post #: 26

RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 11/17/2005 11:18:03 AM

Dieplztks

Posts: 22
Joined: 2/23/2005
Status: offline

Thanks one and all for the replies. Since I dont know if I can respond to everyone individually, I'll do so in a paragraph or however many it takes. Here it goes. Before I begin, yes I do believe that body dysmorphic disorder could be considered as an ED. Most people with ED's see themselves the way they made their minds see themselves. I dont know if I'll ever see myself the way others do.

Master is looking out for my best interests. That's perfectly understandable and reasonable. No, He isnt a professional, but He knows how to keep me healthy. His mother is a nurse, so I'm sure that He learned a lot from her. He has a minor degree in psychology, so He has an idea of what's going on. So yes, He is doing what's best for me... He's trying to keep my body healthy. He wants me to accept myself for who I am. And I'm working on that, one step at a time. I know that disorders dont simply vanish. This will always be part of me. I dont even know if it's right to say that I suffer from anorexia, since I'm at a normal, healthy weight.

It's been two years since I went to treatment. Like I tried to state before, they didnt do anything for me. I got over this myself. Not only anorexia, but various other things that wont be stated here. As of yet, I havent disobeyed. I eat what He tells me to eat and when He tells me to eat. These thoughts have been in my mind since I got over 100 pounds. Have I done anything about it yet? No, but I've thought about it. Thinking about doing something and doing it are two different things. I've thought about it for months and thought to come to others for some advice. I havent tried to diet yet... nor do I exercise besides when doing so with Master, to prevent myself from getting into my old habbits. That should say something.

My BMI is healthy. Find a calculator. If I got down to 95 lbs, I'd still be healthy. Look it up if you dont believe me. I do believe that I would be happy at this weight. Why? Becuase it's under 100 pounds. That's what I want. Someone said that if I got under 100 pounds I might not survive. I've been down to 70-75 pounds. I survived then, with no treatment, no medical care. I do have some side effects from it though. I didnt die. If I got down to 94 pounds, I wouldnt die. I know from experience what my body can and can not handle. Everyone is different. I also know from experience what being depressed and suffering from an ED can do to your friends and family. This is part of the reason why I havent started dieting. I dont want to put my Master through that. I'd rather Him see me healthy, then withering away each day, slowing dying. I've worked myself up from where I used to be. That should say something.

LadySonelle, I like your idea and what you did for your slave. Maybe I'll bring it up with Master and see what He thinks about that, though right now, W/we dont have time for scenes. It would have to be done in the future. Thank you for keeping U/us in your thoughts and prayers, I appreciate it. And Kyami(that's a pretty name) what you suggested could also be tried. I can do that on my own, so no need to bother Master about that. I do eat healthy foods already. I have lists of healthy foods and what calories they contain, ect. But thanks for your advice.

I have talked to my Master about all of this. He allows me to work out with Him as I've stated before. He gives me a list of things I can eat, which are healthy and how much of it I should eat. I want Master to be happy and I want to be happy so I can serve Him like He deserves. But I cant be happy with my body, until I like the way it looks. So, that makes me depressed. Anorexia, self-mutilation(cutting, burning, hair pulling, excessive nail biting....), depression, anxiety are all linked. I learned that when I was hospitalized. I dont self-mutilate, so no need to discuss that. I do want to do what my Master says, but I also want myself to be happy. I know that He isnt just trying to make Himself happy. So, it is about the health issues. I realize that.

I know that therapy is important and have brought it up with Master. But I dont feel like wasting time and money that W/we dont really have right now, just to find someone who is compatable with me. It could mean a two hour drive each week and W/we just cant do that right now. Not with Masters job, nor with my schooling. It'd be wondering to find a BDSM related on, maybe they would understand better. If I told a normal vanilla therapist what our relationship was like, they'd probably think all sorts of nasty thoughts and deem me more insane that I already am lol.

Once again, thanks everyone for giving some advice. I actually didnt expect people to resond. And I'm sorry that this is such a long read. Hopefully I answered everyones questions. If not, I'll try again.

(in reply to perverseangelic)

Post #: 27

RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 11/17/2005 12:09:14 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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You're hung up on this 100 thing because you are still using it as some tangible evidence to make yourself feel secure.

I know you said therapy didn't do much for you before. That doesn't mean it can't now. You're likely in a much better place to accept it now as well.

You have an irrational idea about yourself, and you're trying to convince yourself that it's fine.

Now, you can obey, and in this case you should obey. He's not asking you to do anything unhealthy for yourself, he's ordering you to do something you know is good for you in the long run, but something you can't accept because it means letting go of something you work so hard to control yourself.

But you need to work on letting go and accepting the reality of the situation before obeying takes on any real meaning.

(in reply to Dieplztks)

Post #: 28

RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 11/17/2005 12:27:42 PM

luvdragonx

Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
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Dieplztks,

I can't say I know exactly what you're going through, but I have a good idea from my own experience. I think it's awesome and a positive sign that you have put yourself on the line by voicing your concerns here.

I think what a lot of people - including myself - are concerned with is statements like this one:

quote:

My BMI is healthy. Find a calculator. If I got down to 95 lbs, I'd still be healthy. Look it up if you dont believe me. I do believe that I would be happy at this weight. Why? Becuase it's under 100 pounds. That's what I want. Someone said that if I got under 100 pounds I might not survive. I've been down to 70-75 pounds. I survived then, with no treatment, no medical care. I do have some side effects from it though. I didnt die. If I got down to 94 pounds, I wouldnt die. I know from experience what my body can and can not handle. Everyone is different.

Yes, everyone is different and you may have survived extreme weight loss before. But as with many extremes, your body can only take so much. This time it may not bounce back as well. This time may be the that proverbial straw. That's why I agree with others who have said to see a physician and find out exactly what you're working with. Weight loss may not be survivable for you anymore.

When you talk about ~unnecessarily~ losing weight - that's a big giant red flag. WARNING - do not enter. The weight itself isn't the problem. The problem is your wanting to lose it.

You may think '1 pound won't hurt - I'll still be a healthy weight". The issue is not whether you'll be healthy losing 1 pound - the issue is why that 1 pound is so important to you. Why is 1 pound the source of your misery? If you got down to 95, sure you'd still be within your limits, but what happens if you get to 94? It's still close to 95. So is 93. Since you've spent so much of your life working for these lower numbers, I can imagine it would be hard to stay focused on the real goal - which is living - if you got back into weight loss mode.

When health is your primary concern, a few pounds doesn't really matter either way - you'd be within your healthy weight range. And for most people THIS is an attitude that is safe. But for someone with an ED, I don't think it's ever a safe way to think. If the SOLE reason for wanting to lose weight is because it would make you 'happy' - not because of a genuine need, like being overweight - then please stop and reconsider. I don't think that active weight loss is ever a safe endeavor to take on without professional supervision for someone with an ED.

I realize that you've stuck with your committment to keeping away from these old habits, and I'm sending positive energy your way in hopes that you will continue to focus on your health. I just see your posting here as a way of reaching out - you're concerned now. Hopefully you've read some things here that will help you stay strong.

Best wishes

< Message edited by luvdragonx -- 11/17/2005 12:35:15 PM >

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(in reply to Dieplztks)

Post #: 29

RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 11/17/2005 1:36:22 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

Most people with ED's see themselves the way they made their minds see themselves. I dont know if I'll ever see myself the way others do.

here is where we share something and here are the ways this slave has been able to "overcome" the negative effects of seeing something else in the mirror for over 20 years:

1. get the hell out of the mirror= and off the scale for that matter, too
2. don't believe ANY advertising and even go so far as to rebel against it, say no to make-up, perms or coloring, don't be caught dead in whatever the "latest" celebrity beanpole is almost wearing
3. make friends with hippies
4. find something that you are passionate about and devote your time and energy to that INSTEAD, every time you start thinking about weight or "how you look"

quote:

But I cant be happy with my body, until I like the way it looks. So, that makes me depressed.

you have so much to look forward to, though!!!=wait until you've had a few kids and you can actually hear the stretch marks screaming at you as you pass by the mirror even though you are purposefully looking the other way!!!

c'mon you've been on the couch, you know the routine, sounds like the old vicious cycle revving up..........well, this slave hopes you realize you are not alone and you don't have to suffer, it is a choice to suffer alone~it appears from your posts you have resources available to you for help. If all else fails, just dedicate yourself to making a whole lotta money, since, in our society, you can devote your entire life and more money than the GNP of some small countries to making yourself look different than the way the Great Architect intended.....you'll certainly LOOK happy.

(in reply to Dieplztks)

Post #: 30

RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 11/17/2005 3:56:42 PM

ginawithaB

Posts: 141
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline

quote:

I know that therapy is important and have brought it up with Master. But I dont feel like wasting time and money that W/we dont really have right now, just to find someone who is compatable with me. It could mean a two hour drive each week and W/we just cant do that right now. Not with Masters job, nor with my schooling. It'd be wondering to find a BDSM related on, maybe they would understand better. If I told a normal vanilla therapist what our relationship was like, they'd probably think all sorts of nasty thoughts and deem me more insane that I already am lol.

Hi again, Look back on 1st page...I listed a website of Kink-aware professionals. Some listed are online and offer assistance pro-bono. Again, check out credentials and trust your gut. I don't wish to belabor the point, but I do still believe it would be worth exploring therapeutic options. Take care,

gina

(in reply to Dieplztks)

Post #: 31

RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 11/19/2005 10:21:45 AM

LadyParadox

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Joined: 12/24/2004
Status: offline

My best friend was anorexic all through our junior high and high school years. From the perspective of a friend I tried to help her all I could but in the end it is a personal decision. Part of the problem with a -lot- of people in this day and age is our focus on weight and not on health. You shouldn't measure what you are when you jump on the scale.. you should look at your BMI (Body Mass Index). Of course the two can kinda go hand in hand but if you are underweight you might be unhealthy.

I am certain your Master is worried about your health. In the end you need to do what is best for you--but ask yourself this...
Is what is BEST for you what you WANT to do? I mean I would really love to eat chocolate pudding every day but that's not what is BEST for me so I don't.

Part of the problem with counseling too is that counselors are only people and like doctors sometimes you need a second opinion. I used to be in counseling after a friend's death and the shrink wanted to put me on antidepressents but I really don't like or believe in taking drugs whenever it can be helped. I went to do different doctor who instead got me in contact with a few support groups and we had weekly counseling sessions (latter on they became more sporratic)

The counseling really helped in the long run even though I didn't get any results the first time. Part of the things the counselors tried to get in my head is this... "The world changes around you every day, but we can only change after we accept that change needs to happen". So you will never accept your current weight until you believe that it is okay.

If you still want to lose weight even though you may be perfectly healthy (or even underweight even now) then it is your decision but with your decision come consequences. Your Master may become upset with you and perhaps leave if the beliefs are strong enough. You may risk personal harm to yourself by being underweight and unhealthy. You may risk becoming anorexic again-- after all it is a disease that begins in the mind.

In the end, it's your decision and you must weigh the pros and cons of your decision.

Good luck.

(in reply to Kyami)

Post #: 32

RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 11/19/2005 1:08:18 PM

submissivesilk

Posts: 154
Joined: 1/30/2005
Status: offline

i'm 5'10, at one time i weighted about 102lbs, and that was with the D cups. They say for my height and bone structure i should weigh about 145-150. Well the skinny days are long over, i'm a bit above my perfect weight now.

For a height of 4'11" i'd think about 95 would be good for you, but of course your Dr. would know that better than anyone.

i'll bet your Master cares alot about you, how could He not. i'd say He just wants you to be healthy. Anorexia is not something to play with, it has and will continue to kill people, but i am sure you know all of this.

i'm not going to say get councelling, i'm just going to say be careful, and try. i remember when i finally realized what i really looked like, and when i started trying to gain weight. It wasn't easy.

good luck to you
silk

(in reply to LadyParadox)

Post #: 33

RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 11/19/2005 4:06:53 PM

DesertRat

Posts: 2774
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dieplztks

I dont know how many people on this site have ED's, whether that be obesity, anorexia, bulemia, a combination of them, or what. But I'm sure that some of you have suffered from them, or perhaps still do.

This is just some back info bout me.... read it if you want or just skim over it. Doesnt matter. I've suffered from anorexia since I as 15 or so. At age 17 it was to the point where I weighed around 70-75 pounds. Right now, my weight is between 103-106, depending on the time of month. I hate being over 100 pounds... I'm 4'11"... so maybe that'll tell you one reason. There are others. While I dont want to get back into anorexia, this is still an issue. Master doesnt want me to lose weight. He likes me the way I am. But this is a concern for me... maybe it shouldnt be...maybe I still suffer from anorexia somewhat and that's a scary thought, because I've been through treatment.

My concern is this:
Do I make myself happy or my Master happy(of course I want to make Him happy but....)? It is ok for me to want to be ok with myself by losing some weight, or should I remain miserable at the weight I am now? Should I be depressed and under constant stress because I'm at the weight I am, or should I subject myself to the stress of Him being disappointed with me for losing weight?

Please keep the topic on hand. I'm asking people who may suffer from ED's to give advice. If you've never been around someone with and ED or had one yourself, then you may not understand why this is such a big problem. It probably shouldnt be, but it is for me. Please dont say "Get treatment!" Or "Stop being so selfish." Or "Go to a Pro-Ana site"I've thought of that myself.

Maybe Master is afraid that I'll go back into being hardcore anorexic, but I dont think I will, however, I cant get Him to understand that.

Thanks for the read and any advice you may have.

The fact that he doesn't fully understand now does not mean he will never understand, does it? Not only that...maybe he does have some well-founded concerns for your health and has not adequately communicated them to you.

I say this because a former slave had an eating disorder and we worked on it with some success, but it took awhile. It also took a lot of explaining on my part. Hers too, come to think of it.

Bob

(in reply to Dieplztks)

Post #: 34

RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 11/19/2005 7:16:19 PM

jamesthehumanrug

Posts: 668
Joined: 10/21/2005
Status: offline

read the golden cage(thin book) ,and, remember: you are controlling your body ,and, reducing your exsistance, because theres, too many saying what ,to do ,so you turn ,around ,and, say ,at least i can controll my own body ,and, i can reduce my actual presence ,and ,reduce my esistance
,and, be careful ....
maybe, (,and ,i dont know),if you take more controll ,in areas you want ,to be in control, of ,with, out others unwanted constant interferance , then you wont have the anorexic need
graduate school;abnormal-psych., prof zarinsky, swampscott,ma.,since: i had ,to move ,and, graduated i don't even know ,if she's still alive she lived across ,from me, too

< Message edited by jamesthehumanrug -- 11/19/2005 7:21:05 PM >

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,LOVEles,
jamesthehumanrug

(in reply to Dieplztks)

Post #: 35

RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 11/20/2005 11:28:47 AM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

as someone who struggled with bulimia for quite some time, and was still struggling when i became slave to my Master, maybe i can speak on this a bit. thru a combination of physical and psychological conditioning, my Master literally broke me of my drive to binge/purge/starve. He would watch me while i ate, and give me no privacy after i ate, so that i could not just throw it back up. He constantly reinforced the fact that what i thought and felt about myself or my body was irrelevant now, and that only what HE desired mattered because i belonged to him now. please don't think that it was easy, for either of us...but my Master is not one to give up, ever. rather than giving me the PC psychobabble that one would get in therapy about learning to like onself, love onself, etc., He took an opposite approach...He did not give a bleep how i felt about myself, what mattered was that HE loved me, HE needed me, and therefore i needed to do whatever was necessary to meet HIS needs. if He wished me to starve, then i would starve, but if he wished me to eat and be healthy, that is what would happen also. if i was going to die, it would be at HIS wish and at his hands, not my own. He got it through to me that HE controlled me now, and that i no longer had control over myself. His various methods were very effective, to the point where my body completely lost the reflex to purge after eating, and while i will not say that i have a "healthy" or normal body image, i know that my own feelings about such things have no relevance.

(in reply to Dieplztks)

Post #: 36

RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 11/20/2005 12:55:31 PM

theRose4U

Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

Do I make myself happy or my Master happy(of course I want to make Him happy but....)? It is ok for me to want to be ok with myself by losing some weight, or should I remain miserable at the weight I am now? Should I be depressed and under constant stress because I'm at the weight I am, or should I subject myself to the stress of Him being disappointed with me for losing weight?

Please keep the topic on hand. I'm asking people who may suffer from ED's to give advice. If you've never been around someone with and ED or had one yourself, then you may not understand why this is such a big problem. It probably shouldnt be, but it is for me. Please dont say "Get treatment!" Or "Stop being so selfish." Or "Go to a Pro-Ana site"I've thought of that myself.

Unfortunatly you already KNOW the right answer to your question and just don't want to hear it. 100# @ 4'11 isn't big but isn't tiny either. It sounds like you have some negotiated limits in relation to your ED with your Master. This is for your well being. He doesn't want you to have to be forced into treatment for something you should have some skills to cope with by now. Notice I say COPE as I realize this is something that daily you need reinforcement, encouragement that you are beautiful and can function as a whole being even with ED. Honestly this is raising a therapy tune up flag for me. Not anything dramatic but maybe a weekly talk to someone reminder that you're on the right track for your body and that your mind can be ok with it.

(in reply to Dieplztks)

Post #: 37

RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 11/21/2005 5:45:19 PM

Dracironsgirl

Posts: 175
Joined: 7/2/2005
Status: offline

i also had an eating disorder ...years back ...my thought on this is to trust Your Master on this one ...He knows whats best for you ...thats jsut ones opinion.

_____________________________

~love a Man in control~

(in reply to Dieplztks)

Post #: 38

RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 1/29/2008 10:08:04 AM

veteranojugueton

Posts: 6
Joined: 1/28/2008
Status: offline

With your permission, I want to add my two cents to this topic. Depending on the mental structure of any dominant or any submissive, sometimes happens that they get involved in an intoxicating game who raises endorphines over the level where reason must be attended. And the situation is no more a game, or a play, is tremendously real for both your excitement and your fear. Take care on what you wish, because your wishes may come true sometimes.
I was everytime slim, with an hiperkinetic way of life, working a lot and sleeping bad, and as a submissive have been attracted ever by tall, strong and big powerful women. My life was never been in darger due to my sexual preferences, or my tendences.
But a year ago I get involved with a big, tall, strong and extremely beautiful Mistress who demands, as a special gift, a severe food-deprivation regime for me, in order to lose 40 pounds of my weight (in these moment of 140 pounds) in a year or so, raising the scale of 100 pounds. This demand was permanent, and the fact that we begin to live in a 24/7 relationship, allow to take very seriously the point, as a necesarry basement in wich support the rest of our D/s activities. Add some pills, and make a woman happy, was the first way to resolve the point. But the increasing in her excitement over and over with my weight decreasing, make our practices grow in intensity and duration, till the point that we both need to play harder and harder several times a day, and begin to live practically to provide satisfaction for our domsub needs. The harder the sessions, and the skynnier the slave, finishes with me in a collapse, being recovered in a hospital during 15 days, and in the rupture of the relationship. Was this a relationship with an ill and perverse side, where insane passion climbs over reason, and was impossible to talk before act. Thanks for your time.

(in reply to Dracironsgirl)

Post #: 39

RE: Eating Disorders vs Obeying. - 1/29/2008 10:16:34 AM

CalifChick

Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline

Not quite sure if you had a question in there, or just relaying your experience. Perhaps if you have a question, you might want to start a new thread so people aren't responding to the OP from over 2 years ago, and your question gets full attention.

Cali
(just trying to be helpful)

_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to veteranojugueton)

Post #: 40

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