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RE: Morality - 11/16/2005 3:29:04 PM

Chaingang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfie648
A slave would 'adopt' their owners, should there be a discrepancy.

This is what I think also.

The only thing a slave could/should keep to herself is a backup account with a growing sum of money. I would never begrudge someone the means to make good their "escape."

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RE: Morality - 11/16/2005 3:51:48 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

In a D/s or M/s relationship, does the submissive or slave abrogate their morals and "adopt" those of their Dom or Master or Domme?candystripper

Like most people here I think that this is an individual decision. Whether any person chooses to adopt the morals of their partner (vanilla or D/s) is a very important decision, not to be taken lightly.

What is NOT debatable is that if a sub/slave/bottom chooses to adopt the morals of their partner they had best be willing to accept responsibility for the consequences.

As a competent adult, you don't get to abdicate responsibility in this world. If you steal for master it's not master who ends up with a criminal record. If you lie to your boss for master it's not master who risks getting fired.

Let's not forget that in most countries, being human property is a fantasy, and certianly an evocative and addicting one at that, but it is not reality.

Cin

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RE: Morality - 11/16/2005 4:02:48 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
that this relationship is not about what pleases me or even what keeps me healthy and sane...it is about serving and pleasing HIM, period.

I'm sorry, but can you please elaborate on this, daddysprop247? Are you saying that your health and sanity do not factor in your relationship?

Cindi

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RE: Morality - 11/16/2005 4:09:15 PM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkangel

Ideal situation is that you will not have submitted to someone to whom you could ever say no to. He or She would have the same morals, same ethics as yourself in the first place. Morals are not about limitations. They are part of who you are.

Peace and Rapture

I completely agree.

The best way to avoid said moral problem is to chose carefully who you give your submissive to and who you will own/dom.

I, myself, would not own someone who did not share my values to a large decree. I am in a world where the slave ownership I practice is consensual afterall.

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RE: Morality - 11/16/2005 4:30:43 PM

LadiesBladewing

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Ideally, I would say that the servant does not enter into a long-term contract with an individual who blatantly does not share their ethics, or who the servant is concerned will not -at least- respect their ethics, in the same way that it would be an owner -asking- for trouble to accept a servant whom he or she -knew- blatantly did not respect hir ethics and moral perspectives.

Aside from that, depending on the depth of servitude, it is not unexpected for the servant to accept and even adopt their owner's ethical foundation, and, in some cases, for the owner to accept and even adopt some aspects of the servant's ethics, especially in dualist or very small polyamorous households, though this often takes years and years of discussion and development, since this is often the same foundation that the household and the relationship will be built on. This is the way that it works in almost every relationship, lifestyle or otherwise.

Lady Zephyr

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RE: Morality - 11/16/2005 5:07:34 PM

LordODiscipline

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quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

In a D/s or M/s relationship, does the submissive or slave abrogate their morals and "adopt" those of their Dom or Master or Domme? What happens if a submissive or slave is asked to do something or not do something that is morally reprehensible to them but not their Dom/Master/Domme?

candystripper

Someone can be a slave and give their master their fielty, their devotion and their work... some might even go so far as to give their vote to their master.

But, their morality is never something that can ever be up for debate or dispensation to another.

Morality is not only one's personal ethos, it is their actions... the many ways in which a person could violate their personal morality is rife... but, suffice it to say that if and/or when someone does such a thing, they have changed their morality.

And, it is not their master's fault.. that is their personal descisionthat no agreement or contract can mitigate - - therefore it is their morality that they changed.

Responsibility for one's own actions is always a personal responsiblity.

As I mentioned in a thread elsewhere... if she were to 'rob a jewlery store'... I would hold her hand through the arrest, through the trial and I would feel very sorry for the situation... after I called the police.

~J

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RE: Morality - 11/16/2005 6:11:41 PM

IronBear

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

In a D/s or M/s relationship, does the submissive or slave abrogate their morals and "adopt" those of their Dom or Master or Domme? What happens if a submissive or slave is asked to do something or not do something that is morally reprehensible to them but not their Dom/Master/Domme?

candystripper

Someone can be a slave and give their master their fielty, their devotion and their work... some might even go so far as to give their vote to their master.

But, their morality is never something that can ever be up for debate or dispensation to another.

Morality is not only one's personal ethos, it is their actions... the many ways in which a person could violate their personal morality is rife... but, suffice it to say that if and/or when someone does such a thing, they have changed their morality.

And, it is not their master's fault.. that is their personal descisionthat no agreement or contract can mitigate - - therefore it is their morality that they changed.

Responsibility for one's own actions is always a personal responsiblity.

As I mentioned in a thread elsewhere... if she were to 'rob a jewlery store'... I would hold her hand through the arrest, through the trial and I would feel very sorry for the situation... after I called the police.

~J

G'day candystripper & LoD,

In one sence you are both correct. On a theoretical view, a kajira owns nothing when she is collared. Thus she will live, work and have her being as dictated my her Master and thus she will abide by what he deems to be morally correct.

Now the theory is good but it needs to be tempered with practicality. I would hope that a girl has spent enough time with her potential master so she has a very clear and concise picture of his morality, ethics and honour. If they dont match hers or are at odds with hers, I would hope that she gets on her bike and peddals as fast as she can. If, on the other hand, she and the Bloke are in agreement in all the important things and most of the smaller things, I'd say she is in with a chance....

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RE: Morality - 11/16/2005 7:07:23 PM

LordODiscipline

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
In one sence you are both correct. On a theoretical view, a kajira owns nothing when she is collared. Thus she will live, work and have her being as dictated my her Master and thus she will abide by what he deems to be morally correct.

Now the theory is good but it needs to be tempered with practicality. I would hope that a girl has spent enough time with her potential master so she has a very clear and concise picture of his morality, ethics and honour. If they dont match hers or are at odds with hers, I would hope that she gets on her bike and peddals as fast as she can. If, on the other hand, she and the Bloke are in agreement in all the important things and most of the smaller things, I'd say she is in with a chance....

Heyya IB -

Just a few things...

Whereas 'hope' is eternal on the 'playing fields of the Gods', I would suggest that in the real world (that world in which we all actually live), there are those people who utilize someone's desire for 'honor' - their absolute willingness to allow themselves to be subserivent in an effort to belong and to find a psychological niche in their lives that they would forgoe a significant introduction and/or would avoid the absolute issues that a perfect relational dynamic would entail in an effort to be involved.

And, nobody's honor is always 100%... we all falter.

A second point is the ability of someone to not be ultimately responsible for their own actions (and, this does not matter if they are a kajirra, the guard at Abu-Ghrabi, or the policeman on the beat, or the accountant on the job)..

Whether they are or are not under the influence of a "dominant" personality (organization?) - everyone is individually responsible... to themselves, under the law and (should this be their basis) to their God. Attempted relegation of authority and responsibility never washes properly in a society where we are all held responsible for our own actions...

We are part of a sub-culture, but we are not seperate and autonimous from the society in which that sub-culture resides.

I am sure we might all come up with historical and legal parallels from the recent past where this has come to fruition in the news.

In a society that holds us responsible for our self, it is both impractical and a sincere schism with reality to state that "we" are responsible for the actions of another (or, that they should state with any reality that they are not responsible because of someone else) when they diverge from that which we (as a culture, a sub-culture, and as individuals) hold as sacrosanct and immutably our own.

Just a few thoughts.

~J

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RE: Morality - 11/16/2005 7:20:24 PM

OscarHargraves

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Hi Lady!
Having read your question and the answers here I think the problem is that you probably should not accept a collar from any man until you KNOW that the morality issues won't be a factor. Until that time you should probably be Dom and Sub vs. Master & Slave. Spend some time together and develop your relationship. COMMUNICATE and decide if there are any issues between you. By the time you are willing to wear his collar you should already know that this is a man who has the same moral fiber as you do or at least is close enough for you to agree and totally submit too without jeapordizing your own high moral standards.

< Message edited by OscarHargraves -- 11/16/2005 7:21:15 PM >

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RE: Morality - 11/16/2005 7:53:38 PM

brightspot

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My answer is; Use Open Honest Communication about Everything, before
you even think of adopting anything.
Figure what your needs and wants are then communicate them to a possible
Dom'ina if they fit explore further, if not move on.

*Brightspot

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< Message edited by ModeratorTen -- 11/17/2005 5:01:55 AM >

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RE: Morality - 11/16/2005 10:37:46 PM

IronBear

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
In one sence you are both correct. On a theoretical view, a kajira owns nothing when she is collared. Thus she will live, work and have her being as dictated my her Master and thus she will abide by what he deems to be morally correct.

Now the theory is good but it needs to be tempered with practicality. I would hope that a girl has spent enough time with her potential master so she has a very clear and concise picture of his morality, ethics and honour. If they dont match hers or are at odds with hers, I would hope that she gets on her bike and peddals as fast as she can. If, on the other hand, she and the Bloke are in agreement in all the important things and most of the smaller things, I'd say she is in with a chance....

Heyya IB -

Just a few things...

Whereas 'hope' is eternal on the 'playing fields of the Gods', I would suggest that in the real world (that world in which we all actually live), there are those people who utilize someone's desire for 'honor' - their absolute willingness to allow themselves to be subserivent in an effort to belong and to find a psychological niche in their lives that they would forgoe a significant introduction and/or would avoid the absolute issues that a perfect relational dynamic would entail in an effort to be involved.

And, nobody's honor is always 100%... we all falter.

A second point is the ability of someone to not be ultimately responsible for their own actions (and, this does not matter if they are a kajirra, the guard at Abu-Ghrabi, or the policeman on the beat, or the accountant on the job)..

Whether they are or are not under the influence of a "dominant" personality (organization?) - everyone is individually responsible... to themselves, under the law and (should this be their basis) to their God. Attempted relegation of authority and responsibility never washes properly in a society where we are all held responsible for our own actions...

We are part of a sub-culture, but we are not seperate and autonimous from the society in which that sub-culture resides.

I am sure we might all come up with historical and legal parallels from the recent past where this has come to fruition in the news.

In a society that holds us responsible for our self, it is both impractical and a sincere schism with reality to state that "we" are responsible for the actions of another (or, that they should state with any reality that they are not responsible because of someone else) when they diverge from that which we (as a culture, a sub-culture, and as individuals) hold as sacrosanct and immutably our own.

Just a few thoughts.

~J

G'day LoD,

I agree with what you have written here. Also there needs to be allowances for individual takes on the situation. In my way of thinking, it is good to have the ideal situation set out as a model of that which should be aimed at and then work backwards from there to factor in the human element. I too know people who would kneel for you or I to collar them without doing all the basics such as compatability etc. they just are infatuated with their own concept of what we are and not the reality that we both fart and go to the dunny and even burp on occasions or that we are human with those frailities which man has. Perhaps there is a middle ground. For myself, I believe that it is my responsibility to see that a potential sub/slave is aware of my pecularities (I love garlic and onion sandwiches whilst watching cable TV at 2am followed by a good massage then a good head job). However being human I am aware that I can not always cover all the bases. I do believe on following my gut feeling in most cases in life as the gut has never let me down even if it means that I take what appears to be a life threatening rick (at the extreme end of the scale). On the other hand when I have played it safe and gone against my gut, I have always ended up in deep doodoo. I hope this is making sence to you (It is to me but hey aint Morphine great).

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RE: Morality - 11/16/2005 11:28:56 PM

Wolfie648

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quote:

i merely disagreed with the concept that i would abdicate my need to live an Honorable Life once i was collared.

And that is your choice. It's not everyone's no big deal nothing to see here move along.

Protect youself absolutely...until you feel you don't need to. Maybe never.

D (owner of J)

*yourself*

< Message edited by Wolfie648 -- 11/16/2005 11:30:29 PM >

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RE: Morality - 11/16/2005 11:41:25 PM

michaelMI

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personally, i think that, if things are discussed "before" a collar is offered or excepted (from a submissive's point of view) then these things would not be a factor. slaves, on the other hand, are basically "stuck" with two choices, do as you are told or ask for release.

my Mistress knows of my hard limits and has told me She would never make me do things i find "morally reprehensible".

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RE: Morality - 11/17/2005 4:33:00 AM

ExistentialSteel

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LAM said it well, but let me say it again in everyday terms. Few subs let a dom make them do anything that is against their morals.

I have heard subs say they were made to do this and that, yet, they kept going back for more and felt rejected when the dom tired of them.

So whatever they did was done willingly and they felt excited doing if they are honest with themselves.

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RE: Morality - 11/17/2005 5:08:57 AM

LordODiscipline

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
I love garlic and onion sandwiches whilst watching cable TV at 2am followed by a good massage then a good head job

Remind me not to come over to supper (or later)

~J

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RE: Morality - 11/17/2005 8:19:55 AM

lonewolf05

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i don't know about anyone else........nor do i care....

but "I" have my own set of morals, principles i live by.

She has nothing to do with it.

but then-------"I" am uninvolved no strings unattached domestic.

wolf

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RE: Morality - 11/19/2005 6:26:46 PM

jamesthehumanrug

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candy
of course theres brainwashing techniques and books on it but the decision is PRIVATE

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RE: Morality - 11/19/2005 6:56:42 PM

pandoravampire

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My morals could not change, even in a D/s relationship.

For instance, monogamy: as a vanilla, I would be monogamous, just coz its now D/s that does not change. But when i met someone, i was very clear that this was a non negotiable hard as a rock limit i would never work on. Luckily, i was able to find someone, who has similar morality on this issue.

But then im no slave, nor am i a young adult. I am a fully mature middle aged woman. Its hard to change when youve a lot of life experience that has molded you allready.

But then again, ive learnt to 'never say never' on most limits, and accept that i must sometimes do things i do not wish to do, as part of the agreement ive entered into.

The thesis that others have posted on this thread, where 'its not my needs but his, that are important', each to their own i guess, but to me, thats a crock of shit. My needs are equally important as the dom's. My wants are not. But my needs are.
If either of our needs are not being met, then the fullfilment in the relationship is not going to last is it, ergo - nor will the relationship. But as i say each to their own. If it works for other to sacrifice their needs and quality of life, go for it.

My morals in this lifestyle, tend to centre around respect, honesty, monogamy. Those are echo'd in my partner. All 3 are reciprocally non negotiable.

Things that are repugnant and 'immoral' for me, would be, kids, animals, scat play, i simply dont feel id be able to change my morality on these issues, the first two because of the consent issue, then second coz id puke.

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RE: Morality - 11/19/2005 7:48:30 PM

Padriag

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper
In a D/s or M/s relationship, does the submissive or slave abrogate their morals and "adopt" those of their Dom or Master or Domme?

If they choose to.

quote:

What happens if a submissive or slave is asked to do something or not do something that is morally reprehensible to them but not their Dom/Master/Domme?

You either obey or ask to be released. Same as always.

LA pretty much sums it up in succint terms. However, I'll add a few things.

This whole thread is yet another example of why no one on either side of the slash should rush into a relationship or collaring. Taking the time to find out about each others expectations, desires, fantasies, etc. is very important to making a good match. Rather than abrogating their morality, a slave should find a Master whose morality is complimentary to her own so that it does not become a problem. In the unfortunate case that a slave finds herself in a relationship where there are moral conflicts that can't be resolved without one or the other compromising themselves, then she should ask to be released.

Its also a good example of why both should be honest about who they are and what they want in the process of getting to know someone. You can't hide who you are forever and it will eventually come out. If you aren't a match, better to find out sooner than later. While people do lie, its foolish and there's no good reason for it. Whoever you are, whatever you desire, whatever your kinks, odds are there is someone out there who matches that... go find them. If you honest about who you are, you reduce the odds of finding what you truly desire, and that's no good for you. In other words, lying goes against your own best interest in the long run.

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RE: Morality - 11/20/2005 1:53:04 AM

Morgaine289

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing

Ideally, I would say that the servant does not enter into a long-term contract with an individual who blatantly does not share their ethics, or who the servant is concerned will not -at least- respect their ethics, in the same way that it would be an owner -asking- for trouble to accept a servant whom he or she -knew- blatantly did not respect hir ethics and moral perspectives.

Aside from that, depending on the depth of servitude, it is not unexpected for the servant to accept and even adopt their owner's ethical foundation, and, in some cases, for the owner to accept and even adopt some aspects of the servant's ethics, especially in dualist or very small polyamorous households, though this often takes years and years of discussion and development, since this is often the same foundation that the household and the relationship will be built on. This is the way that it works in almost every relationship, lifestyle or otherwise.

Lady Zephyr

I found this text by Lady Zephyr especially wise. It is my experience also, that over time regardless of the kind of relationship, we tend to develop together-attidudes. Moral foundation is a good term for it. In the very opposite to what some posted, i do not believe that we are born with a set of morals, and that morals do not change till the day we die.

There are some parts of that moral foundation, that are unlikely to change, but others can and do over the time of our lives.

To the OP, i can only second what most of the posters wrote, hopefully you only enter in committed relationship after you compared your set of morals with the one or more people you choose to engage.

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