RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (Full Version)

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Aswad -> RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (8/2/2008 10:35:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

And yet another hideous tragedy shrivels to an opportunity to score points in the great gun debate.


What hideous tragedy? I see one guy dead.

If you want a hideous tragedy, how about we rewind a few years, to a Norwegian field hospital, different Iraqi children coming in on a regular basis, having tried to collect the reward for undetonated mines. Or more recently, people shoveling oil into buckets in Africa when some spark suddenly lights them all up.Or people dying from hunger every day. Even so trivial an event as 9/11, without the aftermath, makes a simple decapitation on a bus seem rather irrelevant in the scheme of things. Not to mention traffic victims. I won't even get into animals.

Sure, it's a lot of drama. The news can tug at your heart and shrivel it to dust and profit.

But unless you knew the victim, you're just hoarding your tears for their wallets.

And if you did, my condolences, as I know you better than the victim.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (8/2/2008 10:38:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Criminals, by their very nature, will ignore the law.


That's what I said, if you reread it.

quote:

If someone is too crazy to realize that cutting someone's head off is wrong, keeping them alive is a danger to society.


Sure. Let's start with babies. They haven't a clue about that.

Health,
al-Aswad.




L8bloomer -> RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (8/3/2008 1:14:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

What hideous tragedy? I see one guy dead.



A life being taken away is a hideous tragedy. You are cheapening the value of his life by saying you see "one" guy dead. Whether it is one or many, each is tragic.




Thadius -> RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (8/3/2008 5:27:51 AM)

**fast reply**
Not sure if anybody has heard the radio chatter from the police on scene...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=096_1217580722 

There was something seriously wrong with this individual... listen to the end.




slaveboyforyou -> RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (8/3/2008 8:02:48 AM)

quote:

Not sure if anybody has heard the radio chatter from the police on scene...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=096_1217580722 

There was something seriously wrong with this individual... listen to the end.


Yeah I heard it, and it made me wonder what the hell is wrong with the Mounties.  Why didn't they plug this asshole? 




christine1 -> RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (8/3/2008 9:06:34 AM)

i'm not sure a tragedy has to have a specific "number" assigned to it to be legitimate. 




ygraine -> RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (8/3/2008 9:36:20 AM)

Hi Aswad,
I think the "tragedy" part is not that one person died, but that he died utterly without defense or provocation.
I think there is something hardwired into us to react with special fear and revulsion about this kind of event. It is unpredictable, it is terrifying because of that. 
What that person did was insane, and it was way out of the realm of human behavior. 
That was the creepiest thing I have heard about or read about in a long time (thank goodness).
Y




Aswad -> RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (8/3/2008 12:02:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: L8bloomer

A life being taken away is a hideous tragedy. You are cheapening the value of his life by saying you see "one" guy dead. Whether it is one or many, each is tragic.


You must not be getting much sleep. Life ends with hideous tragedy. And there are 6 billion people on this planet, with dozens being killed in the time it took me to write this post. And if you think it cheapens his life by saying that I see no more reason to grieve his comparatively painless death than the other people who starve, burn to death, drown, and so forth... well, then it will not make sense to you either when I say I am instead exalting lives. The manner of his death, compared to the 1 woman per 3 minutes getting raped and killed in Cape Town, is relatively mild. The media are cheapening not only his death, but the deaths of everyone who didn't make the news, by cashing in on making this one death a story. Death only matters to them when it can give them profit, and we allow them to inflict that agenda on us.

If anything, that is what cheapens his death: it becomes show and dollars.

Health,
al-Aswad.




MzMia -> RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (8/3/2008 12:47:02 PM)

I am catching the bus to the beach this week for a couple of days.
[8|]
I am not frightened at all......but I will sit next to a little older lady, and I
wonder if they have increased security?
I doubt it.




L8bloomer -> RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (8/3/2008 2:13:32 PM)

Aswad:  I stand by my original statement. Every life is precious. To say that this one in particular is less tragic than some of the horrific mutilations and deaths of those in, say, Darfur, is belittling. Why on earth would you even bring up the comparison in the first place? (Rhetorical question.) You cannot discount the fact that this young man died horrifically. The tragedy here is the unfulfilled life, the loss of a son, brother, cousin, nephew, and friend. Yes, many all over the world die and many die horrifically. But to be so blasé about it because it does happen all too frequently is to invite apathy.

I prefer to remain true to the OP. A young man died in a horrible way. All of us are appalled by it and saddened by a life cut short. If you wish to bring up the atrocities that are happening in other parts of the world and make a comparison of how the media pays little attention to mass killings versus the attention paid to one mutilation, I respectfully suggest you start your own thread.




Aswad -> RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (8/3/2008 2:59:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine

I think the "tragedy" part is not that one person died, but that he died utterly without defense or provocation.


Which is the norm. Except it's normally carried out by disease, hunger, fire or somesuch. Not that it's uncommon for humans to be the active agents of death, either. No matter how you turn it, the fact is that one anonymous stranger died in a manner that involved seconds to minutes of fear and pain. In response, the media makes a show and turns that into a profit, against a backdrop of anonymous strangers dying every day in manners that involve any amount of pain and fear from seconds to a lifetime... except those stay anonymous.

Why do we care?

It's not his death, or its manner.

It's because it was shoved in our face in the name of profit.

quote:

I think there is something hardwired into us to react with special fear and revulsion about this kind of event. It is unpredictable, it is terrifying because of that.


Hardwired? Not at all. It is taught. We are given illusions about safety that have no basis in reality. We try to put a lot of effort into hiding and covering up reality, and counteracting our hardwiring in order to maintain this illusion. Then, every once in a while, somebody shows us the truth. And that, more than anything else, it what horrifies us. Both because we, as humans, are ill prepared for truth, and because we, as modern "citizens," are horribly ill prepared to face reality, like children that have been coddled too much.

quote:

What that person did was insane, and it was way out of the realm of human behavior.


Hardly. In some human societies, it has been sport. Maybe he lost it, or maybe he was crazy. But to say that it was out of the realm of human behavior is to reduce "human" to "familiar." Quite a different thing. Certainly, I mind that it happens. But it is in us, and to deny that is dangerous at best. Hell, I've had a crazy guy attack me with a knife, too. Being aware of how thin that veneer seperating us from other apes really is... that is helpful. Watching one's personal space and anyone in it, is helpful. Sticking one's head in the sand and pretending it is something alien to us, rather than something we keep at a struggling arm's length by a major concerted effort, is not helpful.

Did the guy with the knife step out of the bounds of society when he came at me? Yes.

Was he insane? Didn't really seem like it at the time.

Had he lost it? Yes, as far as I could tell.

Maybe he found that lost marble the next day after the police took him away, I dunno. I hope so, for his sake. For my part, I just dealt with him, took stock, smiled at my exceptionally good luck not to have been injured or killed, called for someone to pick him up, and then I simply got on with my day once the adrenaline went back to normal. Because it's not "out there," and it's not alien, or even all that disturbing. It's just human, sans make-up. And it happens sometimes, as it always will.

quote:

That was the creepiest thing I have heard about or read about in a long time (thank goodness).


Perhaps I missed something, but it's not the creepiest thing I have heard about or read about today.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (8/3/2008 3:20:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: L8bloomer

To say that this one in particular is less tragic than some of the horrific mutilations and deaths of those in, say, Darfur, is belittling.


Certainly. Which is why I did not say that, although I did point out that the prelude to death is worse in those cases. If you reread, it may become clear that what I am saying is that this death is belittled by being allowed to overshadow others. Now, I'm not one to agree that "It tolls for thee," but I do hold life in high regard, and think it is more than a little symptomatic of a profoundly ill society that one stranger's death garners much attention while others' deaths do not. In that, their deaths are belittled, and the agenda that motivates it diminishes this one. That, I think, is distasteful.

Perhaps that makes it a bit clearer that you missed my intention.

quote:

You cannot discount the fact that this young man died horrifically.


Certainly not. I am well aware that many people die horrifically every day. And I did not dispute that this man did, although the manner of his death will not make the "Top 100" (charts are so popular, but not when applied to such things) in terms of suffering as a prelude to death, even if we limit it to the deaths caused intentionally.

quote:

The tragedy here is the unfulfilled life, the loss of a son, brother, cousin, nephew, and friend. Yes, many all over the world die and many die horrifically. But to be so blasé about it because it does happen all too frequently is to invite apathy.


Anything but. I take the loss of all strangers' lives, about which I know nothing, the same way. I do not glorify one over the other because it affords me an opportunity to indulge in this emotion or that. But neither do I allow these stories to move me any more than the constant awareness that life is a precious thing that for many people comes to a premature and unearned end, sometimes filled with suffering. To do so is to glorify that one death in a manner that strikes me as rather perverse. And all for the sake of coin.

The losses that tug more at my heart than others, are the losses where I have some proximity to the deceased, whether physical, familial or relational. In that regard, the difference is no more than to disallow corporate interest to tug at my heart. In effect, it is to deny corporate greed the power to touch something sacred to me.

Perhaps with some careful consideration that may make more sense to you than what you assume I have been saying.

To make this man's death into something it was not, is certainly germaine to the thread, I should think.

If you feel differently, there have been many platitudes posted for you already.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Daddysredhead -> RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (8/3/2008 4:10:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
I honestly think for everyone that is murdered we need to club a baby seal that way they will at least feel somewhat bad commiting that Murder knowing that now someone has to go and club a baby seal.

Steel

Dammitall, Steel!  I laughed like a complete idiot when I read this.  It reminded me of Jack Handy's "Deep Thoughts" on Saturday Night Live.  [:D]

eta:  My laughter at Steel's remark was in no way to diminish the tragedy of this poor man's death.  Humor in the face of sadness is my coping skill.




Daddysredhead -> RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (8/3/2008 4:15:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: christine1

i'm not sure a tragedy has to have a specific "number" assigned to it to be legitimate. 


I agree.




Thadius -> RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (8/3/2008 5:10:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

Not sure if anybody has heard the radio chatter from the police on scene...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=096_1217580722 

There was something seriously wrong with this individual... listen to the end.


Yeah I heard it, and it made me wonder what the hell is wrong with the Mounties.  Why didn't they plug this asshole? 


I completely agree, I still can't figure out why they didn't lay this guy out, especially as the one cop begins reporting that he is cutting off flesh and eating it.  Hmmm, do Mounties carry guns?




Maya2001 -> RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (8/3/2008 6:28:15 PM)

quote:

I completely agree, I still can't figure out why they didn't lay this guy out, especially as the one cop begins reporting that he is cutting off flesh and eating it. Hmmm, do Mounties carry guns?


Police if they fire a weapon have to go before an investigative board  and it could have cost them their jobs  they are not hired to play judge and jury... the victim was aready dead the suspect though behaving weird was calmed down at that point and was no longer a threat to anyone   and was confined to the bus... the police were following procedure.

Most people assume  that the suspect was crazy ...maybe but so far in the investigations there is no prove of that ... he came to Canada 4 years ago  he  underwent a background check and had no history of a criminal record.. he work in a church as a janitor ... the pastor there said he was friendly and a good worker.   he had also worked at  a McDonalds and as a newspaper delivery person again reports saying he showed no signs of mental imbalance and was considered a good worker... it seems  the problems may have started very recently  he went recently for a job interview did not get the jpb, was absent from work recently and bossed called his wife  who said he went away for a couple weeks... if anything my guess is he might have recently gotten involved in  drug trafficking  likely borrowed money from someone in the Asian gang  community   and now owed .. obviously the jobs he had would not be bringing in enough money to support himself and a wife so likely was using as well and tripped out




L8bloomer -> RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (8/3/2008 6:32:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
... Hmmm, do Mounties carry guns?


Yes they do.

Agree with Maya2001.




Alumbrado -> RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (8/3/2008 6:50:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

Not sure if anybody has heard the radio chatter from the police on scene...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=096_1217580722 

There was something seriously wrong with this individual... listen to the end.


Yeah I heard it, and it made me wonder what the hell is wrong with the Mounties.  Why didn't they plug this asshole? 


I completely agree, I still can't figure out why they didn't lay this guy out, especially as the one cop begins reporting that he is cutting off flesh and eating it.  Hmmm, do Mounties carry guns?


Yes, and they aren't authorized to shoot people outside of the legal constraints anymore than US cops are.  And there is no way that this suspect was a threat to anybody by the time they arrived on scene.




slaveboyforyou -> RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus (8/3/2008 7:21:08 PM)

quote:

Police if they fire a weapon have to go before an investigative board  and it could have cost them their jobs  they are not hired to play judge and jury... the victim was aready dead the suspect though behaving weird was calmed down at that point and was no longer a threat to anyone   and was confined to the bus... the police were following procedure.


You call carving away pieces of a corpse and eating them "calmed down?"  The guy was holding a weapon, and he wasn't cooperating obviously.  As far as I'm concerned the police had every right to shoot him. 




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