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Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 7:58:53 AM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		Hm, I don't know how well this post will go over, but here goes.

Many slave-types that I see on the boards do the ultimatim thing. When there is a problem within the household, they tote the old "Obey or ask for release" banner that, honestly, makes me cringe a little. What I wonder is...are they really in relationships where this is the case? Does it make a difference to them if it is a romantically inclined D/s or M/s relationship?

The reason I ask is because: I have certainly, in the past two years, disobeyed my dominant. I'm not perfect, and I have trouble, sometimes, letting go of my own control. I have explained in other threads that I'm not at the "complete and total trust" stage, and sometimes I'm just plain...dumb. Neither my dom nor I would consider these behaviors to be purposeful (as I loathe myself after I have done them), but just something we're trying to work through.
But the point is, I've never been asked to leave. Not ever. Not once. It was never implied or suggested or ordered. I've never wanted to be released or asked for it myself. It has NEVER entered my mind.

So, why do people tote this banner around? Obey or leave? Does it really work that way? Does that sort of thing really happen...?? Is it meant to strike fear in the heart of a slave?

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 8:11:29 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist
What I wonder is...are they really in relationships where this is the case? Does it make a difference to them if it is a romantically inclined D/s or M/s relationship?

ULTIMATELY, yes it comes down to "obey or leave."

This doesn't mean masters are unreasonable, this doesn't mean there is always blind obedience. It doesn't mean the master will throw the slave out immediately if they disobey at anything (usually). But, ULTIMATELY, the slave will obey the master or leave, that is the only choice for them. There is no new limits setting, no out of bounds or time-outs.

And for me, no, it doesn't matter if there is romance involved as well. Romance is not the basis of the relationship, the authority transfer is.

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 8:17:46 AM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		There truly are people in relationships where the beat-all/end-all deal-maker and breaker is that of total obedience, regardless of wether the relationship involves love/romance or not.

Is this a willful disobedience, or was this a mistake? A miscommunication? What part did I play in the problem? Is the infraction so great as to make forgiveness impossible? Is the relationship worth saving?

For me, the key is in the intent. If my slave were to do something blatently disobedient, something that she knew to be against my wishes or contradictory to a direct order...well...Houston, we have a problem.

Obedience, to me, is making every effort to fulfill the wishes of the dominant. If a slave finds themself being purposefully disobedient, they may want to ask themselves..why. Maybe they shouldn't be slave to that dominant, even if they are romantically connected. There are other options.

~Thorns



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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 8:18:00 AM   
lonewolf05


Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline 		i do not know about obey or leave-------BUT!
i know "I" have said many many times.......
my Ms starts to bitch and complain about such n such.......i have told Her....."hey yo, just like my 3 ex wives,...if ya can't get along maybe i'll move on" and that stops the rant n rave. She realizes i am not going to listen to it.
if She can't calmly talk to me,........i don't want to hear to it.
and i WILL leave in a heart beat. coz i DID with my ex wives.
i am not one to take any lip off anyone. talk to me as an adult or don't talk to me.

this sounds very un subby but then i AM an alpha male in my vanilla head.
i am here ONLY as a no strings-uninvolved domestic. there is NO bond to anyone on this planet.

wolf

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 8:27:55 AM   
Elegant


Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Many slave-types that I see on the boards do the ultimatim thing.


Perhaps this above quote is the key to the answer. 'slave types'.


I agree with LuckyAlbatross in that authority transfer is the primary basis of a Master/slave relationship.

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 8:30:29 AM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		Well, I had included in my original draft that I am both a "slave type" and a "submissive type" but I wasn't really comfortable with throwing the entire basis of my relationship and it's history onto a board, so I deleted it. But there are aspects of our relationship that are M/s and other aspects that are, perhaps, less so.

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 8:42:38 AM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		For me, I would say that this is the dynamic which I live under....
Has my girl directly disobeyed me... yes - twice in 7 years.

Did I release her?

No - she was significantly punished.

Would release have been in the offing should she have disobeyed, been recalictrant/petulant unsupplicating to the issue that brought us to that point?

Definately.

She chooses to serve... if serving is not what she desires to do... then, there is little choice in the issue.

Is dismissal a casual thing (as the often repeated 'cyber' ultimatum would have one believe)?

Heck no... but, the reality of the potential is a reality...

She does not question that.

~J

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 9:01:25 AM   
wipmebeetme100


Posts: 198
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

So, why do people tote this banner around? Obey or leave? Does it really work that way? Does that sort of thing really happen...?? Is it meant to strike fear in the heart of a slave?


I don't believe that it is meant to strike fear in a slave. Really when one thinks about it, it is no different than a lot of other areas in our lives. Look at the relationship one has with their employer. Usually you have certain rules and guidelines to go by. If your boss tells you to do something...and you don't, how long do you expect to remain working there?
For me, i appreciate the clear cut expectations that accompany a TPE relationship.


Peace,
cathy

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 9:10:01 AM   
Wolfie648


Posts: 600
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

So, why do people tote this banner around? Obey or leave? Does it really work that way? Does that sort of thing really happen...?? Is it meant to strike fear in the heart of a slave?


I think people are for the most part saying to other people asking questions like yourself that in the end after all the blah blah blah the question is: "is one or is one not going to serve"? If so game on, if not see you later have a nice life (I mean really why waste anyone's time?).

If you get into a D/s relationship and 6 mos., 5 yrs. or whatever down the road expect 'romatic love' to take over the 'need to be served' in a dom you should really think twice about what you are doing. But then I have been called an extremist :-)

I don't think a lot of people go around saying "Yeh I told my sub/slave last night that if she didn't shape up she could ship out". At least I've not read a lot on the boards like that.




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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 9:17:50 AM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfie648

quote:

So, why do people tote this banner around? Obey or leave? Does it really work that way? Does that sort of thing really happen...?? Is it meant to strike fear in the heart of a slave?


I think people are for the most part saying to other people asking questions like yourself that in the end after all the blah blah blah the question is: "is one or is one not going to serve"? If so game on, if not see you later have a nice life (I mean really why waste anyone's time?).

If you get into a D/s relationship and 6 mos., 5 yrs. or whatever down the road expect 'romatic love' to take over the 'need to be served' in a dom you should really think twice about what you are doing. But then I have been called an extremist :-)

I don't think a lot of people go around saying "Yeh I told my sub/slave last night that if she didn't shape up she could ship out". At least I've not read a lot on the boards like that.





Hm, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I certainly don't think that investing in a relationship is a waste of time. And as far as serving or not serving goes, I wonder what the level of infraction has to be.

For instance, I have a rule that says I'm not allowed to drink sugared soda. I don't. But if I did, at one point, without permission, would that constitute, for some dominants, being a lack of service or obedience? Would that infraction leave you on the doorstep? Or is it something more substantial like: The dom tells the sub she must be willing to orally service him at any time (boy that one came out of the air) and one day she says she can't? Is that an infraction worthy of kicking the sub to the curb?

I guess I'm just curious as to how serious an offence has to be to be considered not service.

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 9:55:01 AM   
Wolfie648


Posts: 600
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I guess I'm just curious as to how serious an offence has to be to be considered not service.


Just keep pushing your dom and you will find their line. Everyone's line is in a different place. Don't tell me you aren't trying to push the line (I read your bit about soda) - you asked the question as to where the line is, I'm answering it as I see it :-)

There is no 'univseral dom rule' that defines where the line is.

"Hm, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I certainly don't think that investing in a relationship is a waste of time."

I didn't say investing in a relationship is a waste of time - I said if 'one' is not going to serve then it's a waste of time (for me). Serve or don't serve - 'one's' choice, there is the door if 'one' decides not to. Don't expect me to 6mos. or 5 yrs. down the road be so 'in love' with a sub that I would say 'ok hunny bunny you don't have to serve me anymore big smoochies muwahhh I Looooooovvvvveeeeee YouuuuuUU!!!!!'

D (owner of j)







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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 11:35:04 AM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		My POV - yes there is the old "obey or leave", i can obey him and if i dont want to i can leave. But in my relationship "leaving" is such a grey area that it isnt much of an area anymore. Not only is it just way too complicated to leave, but there's alot invested, alot of emotions involved and what not.

So really for me its "obey or pay the consequences" "obey or disapoint" and just sometimes there is not alternative to obey. It is just plainly "obey" Like being punished = ) Sometimes i'm just not in the mood for a good ol spanking. And i will usually try and talk my way out of it, sometimes trying to squirm my rear end out of the way and in the worst possible moments we'll have our own little strugglefest. (which always makes me feel disapointed in myself later) But there isnt any other option. i will obey, and i will take a spanking. Few other circumstances where it is just "obey" but off the top of my head i cant think of them.

Sure Leaving is an "option" But i cant leave and he wont kick me out the door. There are just consequences and disapointment. We tend to work through whatever raises its ugly head.

But then my arrangement is - collared for life. So there is nothing other to do then to deal with things.

(personally, i think in a commited relationship - leaving is a weeny way out. Nothing is ever perfect, people are always going to screw up, there will always be issues. Everywhere you go, every person you meet, they've their own set of problems. So is it really best to LEAVE and deal with a new person who'll have their own problems, or stay and deal with the ones you got?)

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 11:53:27 AM   
Belladonna82


Posts: 171
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline
Yes, Obey or leave...lol well My sister slave and i feel its obey or loose the Collar.If for some reason we "as meaning Master,i or my sissy" decide to go seperate ways we will stay friends...and maybe even a few hehe benefits.So its not leave....its go to the other room :P

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 12:17:02 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		Master and i are in a committed relationship. There is no issue over "obey or leave" for us. He realises im not perfect, as much as i would like to think i am *grin*. Its my responsibility to try my utmost to please Him and its His responsibility to show me how to do that and guide me when there are areas of improvement. The thing is, i "want" to obey Him, its a choice i made quite some time ago. The desire is there and i try with all my heart to. He knows this, why would he put an ultimatum on that? Even a puppy is only as good as its Master trains it, but through it all, the puppy wants to please, its hardwired for it...thats how i am. Why would my errors be a cause to be discarded? It doesnt even come into my mind, i honestly couldnt think of that without every day living in fear and that just isnt the type of life i would like to live. THis is just our relationship though and i realised there are many flavors of Master/slave relationship.

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 12:21:41 PM   
obis


Posts: 412
Joined: 9/9/2005
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Partly I'm not sure what you're asking, Kitten. Even in a vanilla romantic relationship there are things you could do that would end the relationship, why should it be any different in a d/s relationship?

You ask about the soda -- I doubt many would kick you out for drinking a soda. You'd be punished, but no more than a vanilla girl would be "punished" if she did something rude to her vanilla boyfriend. The difference is we'll spank you or send you to the cage, while the vanilla might just be quiet and not return phone calls for a few days.

But yeah, if you started drinking Coke every day and laughed at your dom when he told you to stop, it's probably time for you to go. Not because of drinking Coke, but because you obviously don't want to be in that relationship. If a vanilla boyfriend went out drinking every night with his buddies and his girlfriend told him to stop, it worried her, she missed him, etc, he better damn well expect that she'll dump him if he keeps going out drinking with his buddies every night. It has nothing to do with him having a few beers with friends and everything to do with him obviously not giving a damn about her or the relationship.

I think if you went to any dating/relationship web site and visited message boards you'd find lots of advice along the lines of "dump him". Partly because it's easy for some stranger to say it, and partly because people don't post about how wonderful things are, they post when they're having a problem.

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 12:26:17 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist

Hm, I don't know how well this post will go over, but here goes.

Many slave-types that I see on the boards do the ultimatim thing. When there is a problem within the household, they tote the old "Obey or ask for release" banner that, honestly, makes me cringe a little. What I wonder is...are they really in relationships where this is the case? Does it make a difference to them if it is a romantically inclined D/s or M/s relationship?

The reason I ask is because: I have certainly, in the past two years, disobeyed my dominant. I'm not perfect, and I have trouble, sometimes, letting go of my own control. I have explained in other threads that I'm not at the "complete and total trust" stage, and sometimes I'm just plain...dumb. Neither my dom nor I would consider these behaviors to be purposeful (as I loathe myself after I have done them), but just something we're trying to work through.
But the point is, I've never been asked to leave. Not ever. Not once. It was never implied or suggested or ordered. I've never wanted to be released or asked for it myself. It has NEVER entered my mind.

So, why do people tote this banner around? Obey or leave? Does it really work that way? Does that sort of thing really happen...?? Is it meant to strike fear in the heart of a slave?


I can only say that for us I've heard that kind of thing from my owner exactly once. And I think it was completely appropriate that he said it, and in hindsight I'm very glad he did. I don't think its a phrase that can be used all the time, it should be used very judiciously. But sometimes it really is just... you need to do this or you don't need to be my slave.

I think that there is some romance in my relationship, but the romance is definitely not what would be considered by the mainstream (non-BDSMers) to be romantic. But the romance doesn't affect the dynamic and what is expected.

I don't know if it exactly answered your questions, but I hope it did.

C~

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 1:01:05 PM   
HerJewel


Posts: 23
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline 		I do care for people all the time, it is just part of who I am. But I could not serve someone in a long-term relationship without love being the cornerstone. I'm not knocking all who can, I just couldn't. Unless Mistress made me . Seriously, we are married nearly two years now. Shacked up several before that, after a lovely sacred circle collaring ceremony. There was never any doubts in either of our minds that love.... love will keep us togetha... sorry, broke out in a song there. Seriously, we fell in love. Then we figured eveything else out, and we continue to learn and grow separately and together. How we naturally and easily get along is wonderful, and we wanted to expand on it... as two sincere, genuine, loving women... one is dominant, the other submissive and each makes a point of and enjoys seeing to it their own and the other's needs are met, in all areas of life. Not if, but when I 'misbehave', for lack of a better word at the moment, there is no talk of ending the relationship. She simply deals with it and says, "You are STUCK with me, Babe. I'm not releasing you, I'm not divorcing you, and I'm not going to put up with your crap, so you BEST shape up. I am the ONLY mistress you are EVER gonna have. I'll find you again after this lifetime, too, you can COUNT on it..." and I believe her! Especially since I recognized her when she popped in THIS lifetime! I call her, at times, when she's in a tolerant mood, 'HerHeiny', because, like good ol' Hermione, she's scary... really.
I lay my head in her lap and she pets me. I look up at her, looking down at me, love in our eyes, and I simply say... "But -" and then she slaps me and her fingers mysteriously yet again, get tangled in my hair, and we both end up giggling and snuggling, and go on learning and growing some more - together. I love that she loves me so much that I'm 'worth' her efforts to work with me on goals and solutions to anything we might encounter. So, with love, I think it's more "Obey... or OBEY!" At least in this love it is, can't speak for others.

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 1:42:43 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Where is that line????

Well it's really a simple matter, whatever the infraction is if there is a willfull disobedience and a refusal to take the consequences and then adjust the behaviour, then the line has been crossed. The agreement is simple, Elegant is my slave and I own her with a very few matching limits. If I order something she obeys. (although in most every case a request is as good as an order in my format.) If she attempts and fails then that's a different thing than if she willfully disobeys. Now granted there are times when the will to obey simply isn't enough to get it done. No matter how much she wanted to if I order her to fly from the roof to the store by flapping her arms she isn't going to be able to comply, LOL.

So broken down here are the basic considerations

1. Is this a willfull disobedience or something else?
2. Is this a matter of cannot or will not?
3. Is the slave making an effort to comply and just falling short?


If it is a willfull thing and no effort to make ammends and comply in the future is being made then release becomes an option.

Nobody here has been advocating release as an option to be taken on the first disobedience, unless the disobedience is a willfull and unappologetic and thus undefendable from the slave possition.


In Leather

Archer

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 1:47:42 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		I basically agree with most of what has been said, and to add my $.02...
For me, it depends LARGELY on how long I've been with the sub/slave, and how well we connect. For me, it is very much about a relationship that progresses because we complement each other well. The fact of the matter is, I don't get along well with people who don't clearly communicate their feelings, or people who think I'm an unresonable controlling bitch, lol.
I am fairly sensitive and considerate of my partner, but within WIITWD, I don't endeavor to attain a 50/50 balance, and anyone who enters into a relationship with me, than seeks to retain authority at least half of the time, will quickly come to find that I mean what I say and say what I mean... I am definitely not throwing out idle threats to anyone. I feel that I have to be able to withstand the consequences of my actions, even if sometimes the consequence is that I feel some hurt because I had to let someone I cared for go. M

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 2:19:34 PM   
brightspot


Posts: 3052
Status: offline 		I don't think there are across the line rules and regulations that work for everyone.
I think the most important thing is that the Dom-ina and the prospective "sub", "slave"
have open, honest communication and decide what works best for them and how serious the rules of the relationship will be and what will happen if said rules are not followed.
Discussions about what would be considered learning and mistakes and what would be considered blatent brattiness and the way these problems will be dealt with and when a line will definately be drawn.

It is my opinion that if you are involved in a love\romantic relationship that there would probably be more flexability, but that is also something the people involved need to talk about.
So I think what it basically comes down to is in-depth communication about what the expectations of the relationship are and to always keep those lines of communication open to make changes in or improve things that will enhance the dynamic in the relationship.

I don't think for most, that things are writen in stone, especially in the beginning when you are just getting to know each other, at least the Dominas I know are flexable and willing to make adjustment for the betterment of the relationship, more so when the relationship is a love or romantic one. But now others may be very strict and rigid in the protocol, ergo to wit...you need to be open and communicate with anyone you are thinking of getting involved with, do you have similar wants, needs and expectations?

Communication, Communication, Communication.....

*Brightspot



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