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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 2:35:25 PM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		for the most part i stated in context of the 'morality' post as leave,if that was the case.

for the most part i believe things should be talked out and renegotitated.

sir and i are new to each other, i believe he would punish me if i disobeyed an order/task. he has stated what certain punishments would be if i disobeyed and i understand what were to happen if i didn't do as directed.

for the most part i dont believe in the just up and leave the relationship.


quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist

Hm, I don't know how well this post will go over, but here goes.

Many slave-types that I see on the boards do the ultimatim thing. When there is a problem within the household, they tote the old "Obey or ask for release" banner that, honestly, makes me cringe a little. What I wonder is...are they really in relationships where this is the case? Does it make a difference to them if it is a romantically inclined D/s or M/s relationship?

The reason I ask is because: I have certainly, in the past two years, disobeyed my dominant. I'm not perfect, and I have trouble, sometimes, letting go of my own control. I have explained in other threads that I'm not at the "complete and total trust" stage, and sometimes I'm just plain...dumb. Neither my dom nor I would consider these behaviors to be purposeful (as I loathe myself after I have done them), but just something we're trying to work through.
But the point is, I've never been asked to leave. Not ever. Not once. It was never implied or suggested or ordered. I've never wanted to be released or asked for it myself. It has NEVER entered my mind.

So, why do people tote this banner around? Obey or leave? Does it really work that way? Does that sort of thing really happen...?? Is it meant to strike fear in the heart of a slave?



_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 3:26:22 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist
Many slave-types that I see on the boards do the ultimatim thing. When there is a problem within the household, they tote the old "Obey or ask for release" banner that, honestly, makes me cringe a little. What I wonder is...are they really in relationships where this is the case?


Of all the married and longterm couples I know personally in the lifestyle I have yet to hear of one of them supporting this all or nothing idea.

Life is complicated. There are numerous reasons a direct order may not get obeyed. Some reasons are more acceptable than others, but the bottom line is there are other options one can try before the drastic leave option becomes the only choice.

Limits are fluid and ever-changing in all the relationships I am familar with. Negotiation is an ongoing process. There are consequences for dis-obeying that fall far short of get out.

This is not to say that perhaps there are some transgressions (infidelity, lying, etc) for which obey or leave may come into play but I would think in a reasonable person it would have to be a fairly serious offense.

I've certianly never been asked to leave. No matter how much I struggled with an order I have always found my dominants willing to work through it with me.

Cin

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quote:


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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 3:39:54 PM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline 		I think there is a spectrum on this. Simple mistakes, errors in judgement, challenges while training... these things are all to be expected. I think the point at which it becomes an "obey or leave" issue is when there is blatant, knowledgeable, -chosen- disobedience...and where that disobedience is repeated after the issue (or one like it) has been addressed.

If a servant is going to actively choose to disobey, there really isn't a point to the M/s relationship, as far as SilverRose and I are concerned. We don't go looking for a brat, and we wouldn't -knowingly- choose a servant who was inclined that way. That's not to say that we might not, at some point in our future, end up with a servant who had that in mind and figured that they could get away with it once -in- the relationship (and we have had some in the past who have gotten past the initial screenings and ended up inclining that way)...and that's why I would say that everyone is entitled to -mistakes-, but when mistakes become intentional disobedience or are thoughtlessly repeated, even after correction, and there is no effort made to correct the problem... well, that person clearly isn't in the right house if they're with us.

Lady Zephyr

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 4:39:18 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

Of all the married and longterm couples I know personally in the lifestyle I have yet to hear of one of them supporting this all or nothing idea.


Like I said in an earlier post I have heard the obey or leave ultimatum once. And we've been together for nearly 8 years (which I think qualifies for long term). So it does occur and I think is more a reflection of the structure, dynamic, and priorities than the longevity of the relationship.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 4:44:59 PM   
LadySonelle


Posts: 280
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Santa Fe NM
Status: offline 		Disobey or leave? It depends on the type of disobedience. When a slave disobeys, the first question I ask is *why*. I train with the concept of "intelligent disobedience" firmly in mind. There is a word in German "Kadavergehorsam" meaning "corpselike-obedience" I do NOT demand that!

I have worked with dogs, and handled a Guide Dog, for many years. One of the harder concepts to teach a dog (or some slaves) is the idea that occasionally it is a positive thing to disobey a direct order. If I say "Forward!" and My dog or slave just hauls out ahead without looking, I coudl end up under the wheels of a lorry! No thank you! Thys, my dog or slave is expected to hear the command and think through it and beyond it. If the slave does not understand the command questions are usually welcome. I want my slave to **think** and to have My ultimate welfare and safety in mind as well as obedience to my commands.

As for thoughts, if My slave is angry with Me, the slave is permitted to quietly discuss it with Me... but insolence, shouting and SAM-ish behaviour is NOT tolerated, nor is argumentativeness. The slave may THINK whatever s/he likes! The slave may not SAY what s/jhe is thinking UNLESS it is respectful!

Best case in point was while crossing Van Ness in San Francisco. A speeding car whizzed through the light. My slave was on My right, My Guide Dog, Deci, at My left side. Before Deci could react, My slave grabbed us both and bodily hurled us backward away from the danger. Had My slave not acted instantly, all three of us would have been road-pizza! It was a sudden and violent action, but it was necessary.

Intellignet disobedience is always acceptable for the correct reasons. My slaves are extensions of Myself, useful in keeping Me safe.

Lady Sonelle




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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 4:59:27 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline 		no one is perfect. we will all stumble and make mistakes at some point. however blatant disobedience of one's Master is something different from a mere mistake or slip-up. and in some Master/slave unions, blatant disobedience has only one result: release of the slave. however i'm not sure about the "obey or ask for release" thing...i've never heard such a thing personally, not among any of the real life slaves that i know on or offline. you obey or you suffer the consequences (and one of those consequences may be release, surely), however "asking" for release in such a situation implies that if your Owner gives a command that you do not care for you, you can simply ask for release and that will be that. first i know no one who would desire such a shallow relationship, whether it's a romantic love relationship or not. second, not all slaves have the right to ask for release, and many of those who do, would/could never do such a thing, under ANY circumstances. their whole existence and purpose is too firmly enveloped in their Owner...they have too much love, or too much fear, or some combination of the above, to ever ask for release. asfor just walking out the door of one's own accord, a slave does not have that right imo.

as a slave, when your Master subjects you to something or demands something of you that is especially difficult, that is not a time to be thinking of a way out...that is a time to be thinking all the more of one's place and purpose in life. to willfully choose not to obey is perhaps one of the greatest crimes a slave can commit against her Owner, and a good reason to be released, but few Owners would allow a slave to get off the hook so easily. just having the mindset of "i must obey or either ask to be released" sounds like a very unhealthy and destructive one to me, and very much in opposition to slavery to begin with. i never think, "i must obey Him OR"...i simply think, "i must obey Him." and that's the end of it.

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 5:03:41 PM   
WickedKev


Posts: 305
Joined: 11/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross


quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist
What I wonder is...are they really in relationships where this is the case? Does it make a difference to them if it is a romantically inclined D/s or M/s relationship?

ULTIMATELY, yes it comes down to "obey or leave."

This doesn't mean masters are unreasonable, this doesn't mean there is always blind obedience. It doesn't mean the master will throw the slave out immediately if they disobey at anything (usually). But, ULTIMATELY, the slave will obey the master or leave, that is the only choice for them. There is no new limits setting, no out of bounds or time-outs.

And for me, no, it doesn't matter if there is romance involved as well. Romance is not the basis of the relationship, the authority transfer is.



Spot on!

_____________________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities
can make you commit atrocities.
—Voltaire

It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong
—Voltaire

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/17/2005 6:54:32 PM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfie648

quote:

I guess I'm just curious as to how serious an offence has to be to be considered not service.


Just keep pushing your dom and you will find their line. Everyone's line is in a different place. Don't tell me you aren't trying to push the line (I read your bit about soda) - you asked the question as to where the line is, I'm answering it as I see it :-)

There is no 'univseral dom rule' that defines where the line is.

"Hm, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I certainly don't think that investing in a relationship is a waste of time."

I didn't say investing in a relationship is a waste of time - I said if 'one' is not going to serve then it's a waste of time (for me). Serve or don't serve - 'one's' choice, there is the door if 'one' decides not to. Don't expect me to 6mos. or 5 yrs. down the road be so 'in love' with a sub that I would say 'ok hunny bunny you don't have to serve me anymore big smoochies muwahhh I Looooooovvvvveeeeee YouuuuuUU!!!!!'

D (owner of j)



My "bit" about the soda was that is a rule I have. I don't drink regular soda without permission from my dominant. That's the rule. I've never pushed the rule. I was making an example of something that is less significant than, say, playing with someone else without asking or making a large purchase without asking. I'm asking the question about the line because I'm curious as to what the line is. I'm curious if other people spend time on relationships only to end them for drinking the regular soda, so to speak, rather than not asking permission to buy a set of Henkels knives.

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/18/2005 1:12:31 AM   
1RottenJohnny


Posts: 113
Joined: 11/12/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

I am fairly sensitive and considerate of my partner, but within WIITWD, I don't endeavor to attain a 50/50 balance, and anyone who enters into a relationship with me, than seeks to retain authority at least half of the time, will quickly come to find that I mean what I say and say what I mean... I am definitely not throwing out idle threats to anyone. I feel that I have to be able to withstand the consequences of my actions, even if sometimes the consequence is that I feel some hurt because I had to let someone I cared for go.


This says it all for me.

_____________________________

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/18/2005 2:34:04 AM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline 		One of the dynamics in my M/s relationship is the true power I have over her with the obey or leave theme. I use this power reasonably, but I feel that it is a biological principle in that it is easier for the male to let go of a female after a while than it is for a female to let go of the male.

This is magnified in a M/s relationship because the slave becomes so dependent and needy for the Master which is exactly what the Master encourages to some degree with his training. So if I want to beat her extraordinarily hard, she will take it because she feels this same dynamic that I have described. What is her choice? Take it or leave.

Remember I use this power reasonably. It is the very nature of a caring M/s relationship, I think things out and do what is best for both. If I think she needs to be pushed into more pain to expand her limits or to please me, I will do that. At the same time, her trust in me got us as to this point. She knows that I’m not going to beat her beyond what she needs or can take.


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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/18/2005 4:27:16 AM   
LacieDoll


Posts: 21
Joined: 10/30/2005
Status: offline 		I wouldn't willingly disobey, however, my nature is such that I am impulsive and spontaneous. Sometimes I do things without thinking and I know this. So when I meet someone up front I tell them this because its something they would have to deal with it. Its not that I want to challenge them or even disobey, it just sometimes naturally occurs. Usually, I will realize right after I have done something and in that case I would confess immediately. I think some of it comes down to human nature. The reason I talk about this up front is to try and avoid the obey -leave scenario later by misunderstandings.

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/18/2005 7:40:30 AM   
slavedesires


Posts: 669
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist

Hm, I don't know how well this post will go over, but here goes.

Many slave-types that I see on the boards do the ultimatim thing. When there is a problem within the household, they tote the old "Obey or ask for release" banner that, honestly, makes me cringe a little. What I wonder is...are they really in relationships where this is the case? Does it make a difference to them if it is a romantically inclined D/s or M/s relationship?

The reason I ask is because: I have certainly, in the past two years, disobeyed my dominant. I'm not perfect, and I have trouble, sometimes, letting go of my own control. I have explained in other threads that I'm not at the "complete and total trust" stage, and sometimes I'm just plain...dumb. Neither my dom nor I would consider these behaviors to be purposeful (as I loathe myself after I have done them), but just something we're trying to work through.
But the point is, I've never been asked to leave. Not ever. Not once. It was never implied or suggested or ordered. I've never wanted to be released or asked for it myself. It has NEVER entered my mind.

So, why do people tote this banner around? Obey or leave? Does it really work that way? Does that sort of thing really happen...?? Is it meant to strike fear in the heart of a slave?


Obedience is a tricky thing..... disobedience and the motivation for it is what counts, well in O/our opinion.
If disobedience is outwardly defiant...the question is why?
I am not a brat and brat to me says defiant disboedience.
If one chooses repeatedly to defiantly be a brat, and the Dom/Domme wishes NOT to deal with it, I can totally understand why they might say obey or leave.
Do you realize how much energy and frustration is involved by the dominant to break the will of a willfully defiant "child?"

Some Doms/Dommes simply love the challenge, others, like mine do NOT tolerate it. I dont tolerate it within myself. But then again I don't like to displease or disobey anyone, let alone Master.
Those I do displease, piss off, diss...there is a reason....the selfishly motivated ones I must cone to terms with and usually end up aplogizing but other times, it is a healthy move for me.

On the other hand... some people are emotional masochists and love the ultimatum stuff. It serves a purpose. It doesnt work for me though.

_____________________________

i speak only my personal opinion, sometimes O/ours.

"i am the keeper of fragile things and i have kept what is indisolvable."
....the greatest gift.....vulnerability

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/18/2005 7:42:46 AM   
slavedesires


Posts: 669
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Romance is not the basis of the relationship, the authority transfer is.



YESSSSSSSSSSS !!

_____________________________

i speak only my personal opinion, sometimes O/ours.

"i am the keeper of fragile things and i have kept what is indisolvable."
....the greatest gift.....vulnerability

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/18/2005 10:07:01 AM   
Evanesce


Posts: 2325
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline 		Obey or leave.

I've always been a firm believer in this dogma. However, it doesn't mean that the moment I disobey Him, or our slave disobeys me, that one or the other of us is out the door forever. What it DOES mean is that, as a slave in our house, one has two choices. One can choose to live honorably and make a conscious effort to uphold the commitment made upon entering service to either Master or myself; or one can choose the dishonorable route, give either or both of us raging headaches every time we make a simple request, and we'll escort them to the door.

Neither of us is willing to waste our time on an individual who does not wish to obey and chooses instead to give us lip at every turn. We don't play "Master make me" in this house.

_____________________________

Denise

Give a slave what he truly needs, and he will do what you want.

"There's never a hero in a battle of ego." - Big & Rich


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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/18/2005 4:01:06 PM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

however i'm not sure about the "obey or ask for release" thing...


During the initiate period in our collar, either party may request to end the arrangement. This usually lasts about 3 months, and it is the time when we are deciding whether or not this is a good match, all the way 'round.

Once the servant has become a dedicant trainee, he or she may no longer ask for release. We may decide that there is cause to release a servant, but he or she may no longer request it. That is one reason why we are so adamant about the "consideration period". It is during the consideration period that everyone gets to see and understand exactly what we are about and whether they are prepared to enter into such a deep and binding arrangement.

As I said earlier, mistakes will not end an individual's service with us. Even frequent mistakes will not mar our joy in having a truly committed servant. Blatant, knowing, deceit or disobedience -- including such things as obeying the letter of our law, but trying to skate by disobedience of the spirit of our law -- will result in being cast out, once we recognize the pattern (and despite hopes/expectations/dreams of some servants, we have -always- figured out the pattern).

Lady Zephyr

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/18/2005 7:21:34 PM   
domtimothy46176


Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline 		For toy and I, the basis of the relationship is our agreement. She wants to serve me and I want her to serve me. Everything else is built on that foundation. I care about her and therefore I want to ensure her needs are being met without ignoring my own needs.

If she fails to be perfect in her service, then that's a testament to the fallibility of human nature, not a reason to shitcan the entire relationship. OTOH, if her behavior made it impossible to meet her needs or my own and she was unwilling or unable to correct that behavior, then release would be the only viable option.

Behaviors that are necessary for her own health and welfare are not only accepted but expected as a matter of course. Outside of the necessary behaviors, the remaining choices fall into "what she wants", "what I want" or "what we both want". When "what she wants" is in direct opposition to "what I want", I expect her to choose "what I want".

A conscious decision to subordinate "what I want" to "what she wants" would be indicative of a desire to terminate the relationship, as the underlying basis for our interaction would no longer be present. That's neither selfish nor petty, merely a realistic view of why we chose to be together in the first place. While affection and even love have grown in the time we've been together, they are not adequate substitutes for our agreement.

Our agreement was forged in the knowledge that our needs were complementary. If toy were to decide to forgo the behaviors that enable her needs to be met, her decision would also make it difficult for my needs to be met. A successful relationship must meet the needs of both parties. Without that possibility, the relationship is doomed and the smartest thing to do would be to terminate it before things became ugly.

I hope that helps answer your question.
Timothy

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/18/2005 11:07:12 PM   
OscarHargraves


Posts: 693
Joined: 8/9/2005
Status: offline 		Maybe those people just don't commit or communicate as well as you and your Master do.

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RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/18/2005 11:21:14 PM   
Delvin


Posts: 151
Joined: 8/23/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		If you are not willing to serve, then its time to leave.

I have used this once only in the begining with my current slave to reafirm the very dynamic this life is. I am Master she is slave. period. Of course there are problems and life goes on, and yes my slave is forgetful at times, and so am I. Normally I smile at her, and she knows exactly what that smile is and frowns a little, then smiles. Constant "fear" is never needed, but in the begining sometimes the fear of God may be needed to make sure both parties understand, this is not a game.

There are many different ways to train your slave and each Master has his own set of guidelines, but in the end, there is only one constant, I am Master she is slave. Each one giving 100% of their belief into the relationship and each one working each day to make sure the life is first and foremost before the general "life" ups and downs come into play.

Training is constant and ongoing always, with each new milestone comes mistakes in learning and understanding. To simply give up with the investment you have placed in the slave is extremely hard. IF the slave refuses to be obedient ? Then yes, its time to leave as nothing but chaos remains in the home.

D

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/19/2005 5:42:03 AM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		i have come to find out truly(much to my dismay) exactly how MUCH power i have and maintain w/ the authority transfer.

i had always kind of guessed that the sub kept the power in the D/s dynamic in many ways ,b/c of when i topped.

however it whammed me phenominaly(sp) the other day almost broke my heart.

as a sub i'm the one w/ the power.period.

(disclaimer=i know this has been debated on the boards til people are blue in the face,and we all maintain our attitudes.....i just know how i feel.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross


quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist
What I wonder is...are they really in relationships where this is the case? Does it make a difference to them if it is a romantically inclined D/s or M/s relationship?

ULTIMATELY, yes it comes down to "obey or leave."

This doesn't mean masters are unreasonable, this doesn't mean there is always blind obedience. It doesn't mean the master will throw the slave out immediately if they disobey at anything (usually). But, ULTIMATELY, the slave will obey the master or leave, that is the only choice for them. There is no new limits setting, no out of bounds or time-outs.

And for me, no, it doesn't matter if there is romance involved as well. Romance is not the basis of the relationship, the authority transfer is.




< Message edited by fyreredsub -- 11/19/2005 5:43:05 AM >

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Obey...or leave? - 11/19/2005 5:51:34 AM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		i like your post Lacie. in some ways reminded me of me...

i'm not by nature disobediant. i sooooooooooooo dislike punishment. i much prefer a good girl pat on the head than going to the corner or whatever(i abhor pain).

[but what struck me so is (i'm not spontaneous,) matter of fact i'm controlled in my actions.........]
methinks my problem is there is NO filter 'tween the mouth and the brain,lol..........

thats what i have to watch out for.


edited for freakin not enuff java typos




quote:

ORIGINAL: LacieDoll

I wouldn't willingly disobey, however, my nature is such that I am impulsive and spontaneous. Sometimes I do things without thinking and I know this. So when I meet someone up front I tell them this because its something they would have to deal with it. Its not that I want to challenge them or even disobey, it just sometimes naturally occurs. Usually, I will realize right after I have done something and in that case I would confess immediately. I think some of it comes down to human nature. The reason I talk about this up front is to try and avoid the obey -leave scenario later by misunderstandings.



< Message edited by fyreredsub -- 11/19/2005 5:56:17 AM >

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to LacieDoll)
Profile   Post #: 40
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