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RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/4/2008 8:58:54 PM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AtlantisKing111

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

quote:

So Marxists who impose their 'official' culture of state-run welfare, confiscatory taxes, abolition of private property and denial of their citizen's right to be able to defend themselves are Conservative?
- AtlantisKing111


Yes. Believe it or not, this is true. "Conservatives" in the USSR, were exactly so, committed to preserve the "establishment", to maintain the positions of those in power. The definition of "conservative" in post-revolutionary China is the same. Conservatives in a communist state are the same as in a democratic republic in that they don't want anything to change. The only difference is the form of government that they're trying to preserve.




Exactly my point.  His definition of Conservatism is a mite lacking in exactness if he thinks Liberals are not about having an official culture.


Actually, my post seems in contradiction to yours, not in support of it. And I don't exactly agree with you about liberals having an official culture, although I can see how it sometimes looks that way. That's more a party and issue thing than a political philosophy. The main features of true liberalism are tolerance and a willingness to consider and accept new ideas. That goes completely against the grain of a strictly imposed regime of any sort, which is more closely linked to conservatism. Liberalism is not equivalent to Marxism.

(in reply to AtlantisKing111)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/4/2008 9:01:50 PM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: windchymes

quote:

What would Scooby-Doo?


Scooby-Doo would do Scooby-doodoo. The question is, who would clean it up?

(in reply to windchymes)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/5/2008 10:13:30 AM   
roland23


Posts: 241
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline 		I would never allow politics to interfere with a BDSM relationship. It is one of those topics I would not raise, like religion. If the sub whines on and on about how George W. Bush is the greatest president in history(he is the greatest of THIS century hehehe)  I'd probably leave her tied up and send my European socialist friends over!

(in reply to Amaros)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/5/2008 12:06:08 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub


quote:

ORIGINAL: AtlantisKing111

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

quote:

So Marxists who impose their 'official' culture of state-run welfare, confiscatory taxes, abolition of private property and denial of their citizen's right to be able to defend themselves are Conservative?
- AtlantisKing111


Yes. Believe it or not, this is true. "Conservatives" in the USSR, were exactly so, committed to preserve the "establishment", to maintain the positions of those in power. The definition of "conservative" in post-revolutionary China is the same. Conservatives in a communist state are the same as in a democratic republic in that they don't want anything to change. The only difference is the form of government that they're trying to preserve.




Exactly my point.  His definition of Conservatism is a mite lacking in exactness if he thinks Liberals are not about having an official culture.


Actually, my post seems in contradiction to yours, not in support of it. And I don't exactly agree with you about liberals having an official culture, although I can see how it sometimes looks that way. That's more a party and issue thing than a political philosophy. The main features of true liberalism are tolerance and a willingness to consider and accept new ideas. That goes completely against the grain of a strictly imposed regime of any sort, which is more closely linked to conservatism. Liberalism is not equivalent to Marxism.


Actually...given the liberals' love of redistribution of the wealth, especially from those who worked really hard to achieve it to those who don't care to work or who somehow managed to find a victim group to fit into...not that hard to do, nowadays...they are much more closely aligned with Marxism than the conservative idea of what you earn should be yours.

(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/7/2008 3:18:39 PM   
tingedpurple


Posts: 8
Joined: 12/23/2007
Status: offline 		Augustone, I haven't read this entire thread but, as a conservative, let me indulge you.  As a matter of fact, I am politically libertarian and culturally conservative.

Like every other political term, "conservative" is highly charged and very vague.  As a Canadian, "conservative" does not have all the cultural and religious connotations it has for the American conservative.  Then again, a New York or California conservative is very different from a Mississippi conservative.  And that's just within the U.S., let us not forget the European varieties.

I see no contradiction between practicing BDSM and conservatism.  To begin with, culture is organic and not the result of the prevailing political mood.  As a conservative I certainly don't support the status quo.  What conservatism means to me in the context of sexuality is that people should do whatever they please in the bedroom.  I am annoyed by the constant exposure of Westerners, and particularly the young, to highly explicit scenes - whether it be in the media, art, or cultural institutions such as the Pride Parade.  I think this tendency, sexual liberation ad nauseum, has had a very poor effect on the little values and social ettiquette left us since the death of chivalry, not to mention the psychological effects it has on young people, everything from social pressure, the spread of sexual diseases, to premature hormonal changes.

Everyone should be free to do as he pleases in the privacy of his own home, but that does not mean that the entire world needs to know about it or that what they choose to do in that privacy is necessarily the right thing to do.  That does not mean I believe in legislation prohibiting certain sexual behaviour, certainly not, but I do believe people ought to take it upon themselves to ensure a healthy society.  It's not at all hypocritical to have wild and crazy sex at home and to not bring it up in public.  One needn't be ashamed of it, just not actively celebrate it. 

Whenever I hear guys my age proudly discussing what they do to their girlfriends (and I smile under my breath realizing its all vanilla) in the most crude and descriptive terms they can find just showing off to their friends, it's just vulgar.

So why should sexuality be "celebrated"?


< Message edited by tingedpurple -- 8/7/2008 3:26:40 PM >

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/7/2008 6:04:40 PM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline 		The definition of liberal has come to be confused with particular policies associated with well-know people and/or parties who have been called liberals in a given nation. Those policies often aren't liberal trademarks at all. I understand how you came to your conclusion, but in fact redistribution of wealth isn't a liberal philosophy per se. Case in point: hard-line Communists in China are the conservatives, and proponents of capitalism there are liberals.

The trademarks of liberalism, open-mindedness, tolerance, and willingness to consider alternatives to the status quo, have resulted in ideas that challenge pure capitalism and pure communism/socialism. The conservatives in both Socialist and Capitalist states don't want to even consider changes to their economic and political system, because they like it the way it is; they either benefit from it or mistakenly think that they do. Liberals view the status quo more critically and realize that pure socialism and pure capitalism both suck. Pure socialism doesn't provide incentives for innovation and productivity. Pure capitalism rewards some people far in excess of their contribution, to the detriment of others. Liberals seek alternatives to achieve more rational and equitable results, creating more widespread benefit to the entire country.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/7/2008 6:50:21 PM   
cmatrix4761


Posts: 73
Joined: 6/28/2005
Status: offline 		Unabashed intolerance is born of and fueled by unabashed fear; anyone who calls themselves 'politically conservative' nowadays doesn't really understand what it means.  Actually, the same goes for liberal.
Originally, conservativism was the belief that [large or federal] government should stay out of small affairs; this concept wasn't original to the US -- it's what drove the American Revolution and it's what fueled the US Civil War.  The confusion comes into play when people [nowadays] confuse conservativism with republicanism.  The two are incompatible -- republicans believe in moral legislation at every level of government, except as it applies to business.  The general consensus among republicans is that our moral devices should be governed as strictly as possible, but business should be left to its own devices.


_____________________________

-- CM, "Nosce te ipsum."

(in reply to Augustone)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/7/2008 7:14:39 PM   
tingedpurple


Posts: 8
Joined: 12/23/2007
Status: offline 		hardboydsub and cmatrix4761, you're both wrong from a historical perspective.  The philosophy upon which the U.S. was founded is classical liberalism, the philosophy advocated by a number of 17th and 18th century philosophers, most notably John Locke and Montesquieu.  Liberalism meant a government whose sole mandate is the protection of property rights (and, ipso facto, individual rights) without intervention in the social and economic realms.  From the beginning of the 20th century to the 30's the word came to be associated with Socialism, and then only in North America, for in Europe it retains its original meaning of minimalist government, or what Americans know as Libertarianism.

< Message edited by tingedpurple -- 8/7/2008 7:15:12 PM >

(in reply to cmatrix4761)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/7/2008 8:42:09 PM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline 		cmatrix4761, I agree with you on just about everything except the idea that conservatism was originally about the federal government staying out of small affairs, and that it was what drove the American Revolution.

Federalism, not conservatism, was the belief that the states should govern themselves, and the federal government's purpose was to handle only those things that the states couldn't do by themselves. This was one of the main principles in the Constitution. It wasn't what drove the revolution, either, although it was indirectly related. Conservatism was, and is, [per the American Heritage Dictionary] "The disposition in politics to maintain the existing order and to resist or oppose change." Conservatism is not equivalent to federalism, and in fact has nothing to do with it. Republican so-called conservatives have espoused Federalism when it suits their purposes (blocking Federal environmental legislation), and reject it when it doesn't suit their purposes (Gore v. Bush, Federal drug laws, Defense of Marriage Act).

I agree with you that most people who call themselves conservatives or liberals don't really know the true meaning of the words. The words have become emotionally charged, and since there are so many misconceptions floating around, it's almost impossible to have a civil, rational conversation about them.

[Here's the edit]
I should add one caveat: the relationship of conservatism to federalism is that, once our republic was established under federalist principles, it would be considered conservative to want to maintain those principles and resist attempts to increase the power of the federal government at the expense of the states.

< Message edited by hardbodysub -- 8/7/2008 8:46:53 PM >

(in reply to cmatrix4761)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/8/2008 7:06:13 AM   
DaddyKeeper


Posts: 24
Joined: 2/23/2008
Status: offline 		Not read all replies yet, but wanted to jump right in

quote:

ORIGINAL: Augustone
Dictionary.com:

Conservative -

1. disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.

I think my use of the phrase "official culture" is a fairly accurate paraphrase of that definition.


Right off the top of my head (male dominant) I can think of the following traditional conditions or institutions that may be desireable to preserve or restore and have some bdsm connection

Restore the stereotypical 1950s and prior household with a strong head of household and clearly defined roles

Restore the supposed sexual liberties and freedoms of the 60s (I reside in a country that is about to introduce the concept of thought crime)

(for the feminist female doms)
Preserver the image that women have been downtrodden too long and deserve all they can get.

Lets not even get into "conservative" policies that have nothing at all to do with bdsm such as taxes, welfare, immigration, defence etc.
quote:



As for the new sub who questions my interpretation(?) of Nietzsche. I'll not dignify her wee puff of misty bullshit with a reply.


Diphon Quote: "I do not, nor any other conservative I know believe in or support imposing our beliefs on others."

If that statement is in fact true then good on you and those you know.
Unfortunately, if it's politics we are talking about when using the word conservative then by default that means laws and policy.
Conservative laws and policies are (like the dictionary definition) disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.
Again, that sounds like official culture to me.

Hmmm, I have a nominally "socialist" government. One that has reformed the legislative houses to preserve their control. One that has introduced thought crime and more new laws in the last decade or so than in the entire history of the current legislative system.

Think perhaps conservative depends on where you stand rather than where they stand
quote:


I've lived long enough to see conservative policies try to preserve discrimination against blacks, women and gays. I've seen conservative legislators try to legislate the preservation of traditional marriage by denying same sex couples the right to marry. I've seen conservative policies and laws force my best friend (15 at the time) to get an abortion in a Mexican border town.

Our "socialist" government is actively promoting discrimination. Both the positive and negative varieties.
quote:


Now, Diphon, you and your friends can claim to not "believe in or support imposing our beliefs on others" till the cows come home. But if you espouse, promote, vote for, and support politicians that identify as conservative then you and your friends (by proxy) impose your beliefs on others through law and enforcement.

see above, socialists tend to legislate more, and try to control more. How many of the more repressive regimes in this world are nominally socialist?

Government here is bigger (in terms of personell and finances) and more intrusive than it has ever been before, if restoring the institution of a smaller, less intrusive government that is less likely to create laws that have no real place, then shoot me, I am a conservative. I actually identify as a rational anarchist and so really hate the idea of big intruding government.
quote:


BDSM is not looked on kindly (although it is practiced secretly behind closed & privileged doors by our conservative brethren) in conservative circles. And in regions of the world where conservative politicians and policies prevail it's against the law.

Yes, physical aspects of bdsm are illegal here, and our socialist government is now working towards outlawing even thinking of them!
quote:


Now, I submit that closeted gay conservative politicians who vote against gay anti-discrimination law and vote for preservation of marriage acts ( a euphemism for laws that deny same sex couples the right to formalize love unions) and continue to fuck their same sex partners are hypoctites ....and folks who claim to be BDSM positives and conservative at the same time fall neatly into the category of philistine as well. Both of these deviant political sub-sets are as one. They depend on privilege of one kind or another to continue to indulge in what they make difficult or impossible for others less privileged to indulge in without the risk of experiencing the weight of law.

I am old enough to remember vice squads breaking in on public and private BDSM scenes. Believe me when I tell you it wasn't the politically progressives who sent the cops it bwas conservatives.

Plain and simple enough for you to understand now?


No.

Conservative is about much more than sex or bdsm. Immigration, defence, taxes, welfare, transportation, all of these can have no impact on sexuality at all, no matter where in the political spectrum you lie

When bdsm started to gain ground, it was a subculture, anti-establishment. Now in a supposedly more liberal age people are free and able to seperate politics and sex.

(in reply to Augustone)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/8/2008 8:10:41 AM   
DomDolf


Posts: 363
Joined: 7/11/2008
Status: offline 		Does anyone believe we can fit absolutely define what conservative and what liberal is? Does anyone believe that everyone will fit in one of the two definitions?

Dolf



< Message edited by DomDolf -- 8/8/2008 8:18:14 AM >

(in reply to DaddyKeeper)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/8/2008 8:40:27 AM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline 		Augustone, I suppose if I saw a Dom profile saying 'you must agree with my politics' I'd be turned off myself.  However, I think people use the term 'conservative' to mean many things; you have to look past the label to the person's positions on different issues before you really understand what they mean.  I identify as a conservative, but to me, this means a very small government, especially at the federal level, a return to enforcement of laws intended to protect the worker as well as the employer, and very little interference in the personal lives of individuals.  I see no conflict between my views and the desire to be a submissive...and I certainly am not not looking for a Dom who agrees with me about politics or who even has more than a basic sense of world events.
 
candystripper

(in reply to Augustone)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/8/2008 10:27:35 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		I haven't bothered reading the responces as I'm reasonably sure there is a shiut fight brewing oin there and that doesn't interest me. Now I don't pretend to understand the US Political Scene as much as I could but  do know something about the British and Australian political arenas and seeing that there are both Aussies and Brits here in CM I'm buying into this from that aspect. In both the UK and Australia I know BDSmers who support all facits of politics. By inclination I probably am a liberal conservitive if I bother to become involved in a political debate although I have my own agendas and will support any party on any given matter if they are on track with my beliefs (I'm a died in the wool Royalist in any case by inclination and birth). Having said that, I also believe that everyone has the right to their beliefs and especially both political and religious. Providing the people keep their political and religious opinions to themselves and don't try to ram them down my throat, I have no problems in associating with them. After all we can always agree to disagree.


IB
(The incorrigible, irrepressible and irreverent Bear)

< Message edited by IronBear -- 8/8/2008 10:29:08 AM >

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/8/2008 12:16:11 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomDolf

Does anyone believe we can fit absolutely define what conservative and what liberal is? Does anyone believe that everyone will fit in one of the two definitions?

Dolf


Another excellent point.

Nope to both of your questions.  Well I guess some folks believe that they can.  Even approach it from the other side, can anybody honestly define to an absolute what a BDSMer is?

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to DomDolf)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/8/2008 1:12:49 PM   
cmatrix4761


Posts: 73
Joined: 6/28/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tingedpurple

hardboydsub and cmatrix4761, you're both wrong from a historical perspective.  The philosophy upon which the U.S. was founded is classical liberalism, the philosophy advocated by a number of 17th and 18th century philosophers, most notably John Locke and Montesquieu.  Liberalism meant a government whose sole mandate is the protection of property rights (and, ipso facto, individual rights) without intervention in the social and economic realms.  From the beginning of the 20th century to the 30's the word came to be associated with Socialism, and then only in North America, for in Europe it retains its original meaning of minimalist government, or what Americans know as Libertarianism.


Libertarians are too idealistic; they tend to cling to the ideal rather than the situation (in terms of business, that would mean they're positional negotiators rather than issue negotiators), and that kind of mentality is dangerous in government (actually, it's the main reason Bush keeps ****ing things up so badly).  Limited government only works when none of its subjects are corrupt, which is a society that will never exist.  The recent housing crash is a great example -- there was no regulation of lending practices, not even any market oversight, and the whole thing came crashing down as a result of the corruption that was born from it.

Edit: RE: hardbodysub: I have to concede your point about Federalism and the American revolution; I was mistaken. Of course, under the definition 'resistant to change', conservativism would be, by its very nature, bad for government -- my logic underlying that conclusion is that society and individuals are in a constant state of change, and therefore government should be as well.

< Message edited by cmatrix4761 -- 8/8/2008 1:20:40 PM >

_____________________________

-- CM, "Nosce te ipsum."

(in reply to tingedpurple)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/8/2008 5:31:55 PM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tingedpurple

hardboydsub and cmatrix4761, you're both wrong from a historical perspective.  The philosophy upon which the U.S. was founded is classical liberalism, the philosophy advocated by a number of 17th and 18th century philosophers, most notably John Locke and Montesquieu.  Liberalism meant a government whose sole mandate is the protection of property rights (and, ipso facto, individual rights) without intervention in the social and economic realms.  From the beginning of the 20th century to the 30's the word came to be associated with Socialism, and then only in North America, for in Europe it retains its original meaning of minimalist government, or what Americans know as Libertarianism.


I don't see how anything above disproves anything I said. Ever read the Federalist Papers?

(in reply to tingedpurple)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/8/2008 5:44:28 PM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline 		cmatrix, I definitely agree with you regarding libertarians. In principle, I agree with much that they espouse, and I also appreciate their consistency of philosophy (particularly when contrasted with the latter day right-wing Republican party hypocrisy - they hate big government when it regulates business, but love it when it's peering into your bedroom). However, what sounds good in the abstract doesn't work quite so well in practice.

When everyone is left completely to their own, some individuals will screw it up for everyone else, and it's particularly dangerous when businesses/corporations are left unregulated and unbridled; their size, wealth, and power give them a great potential to damage the society. There is clearly a governmental role there. I'm more in agreement with libertarians on individual rights.

(in reply to cmatrix4761)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/8/2008 5:56:19 PM   
cmatrix4761


Posts: 73
Joined: 6/28/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

... it's particularly dangerous when businesses/corporations are left unregulated and unbridled ...


LOL -- a new theory of government and politics: corporate BDSM :D


_____________________________

-- CM, "Nosce te ipsum."

(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/8/2008 10:47:52 PM   
UncleNasty


Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:



And they will often retreat to their vacuous high-ground when they realize that the audience they are preaching to isn't their choir.



I usually frown on personal attacks but I have to say you turn a wonderful phrase.

Uncle Nasty

(in reply to Asmodeus)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Politically Conservative BDSMers? - 8/8/2008 11:53:20 PM   
tingedpurple


Posts: 8
Joined: 12/23/2007
Status: offline 		hardbodysub, I quote:

"The trademarks of liberalism, open-mindedness, tolerance, and willingness to consider alternatives to the status quo, have resulted in ideas that challenge pure capitalism and pure communism/socialism."

What you describe there aren't the trademarks of liberalism.  They hardly describe the so-called liberals of today (i.e., Democrats in the U.S.A.) and, taken alone, they most definitely do not describe the historical concept of liberalism.  Those concepts better describe humanism.  Liberalism, historically speaking (and that is the only way we can gauge its "trademarks"), is not some vague philosophy of open-mindedness, it is a specific political philosophy rooted in the concept of property rights and very much espouses the free market (or "pure capitalism").  The etymological root of liberalism is libertas, the Latin for liberty.

(in reply to UncleNasty)
Profile   Post #: 120
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