stella41b
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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: aperversetwist
What I've learned is that folks who are transgendered don't really need to worry about being discriminated against by society. They need to worry about discrimination from other trannies. Transexuals/Transgendered folks eat their young. It's not pretty. "I'm a real FtM, you're just doing body mod" "If you aren't doing XYZ then you aren't really trans" The list goes on and on.
Most of the discrimination against the transgendered comes from the non-transgendered. Discrimination comes from a wide variety of reasons, the most common are the misconception that it's just 'wrong' or the simple fact it's fear because that person has never come face to face with a transgendered person. Other reasons include a belief that it's sinful according to some religious doctrine, a feeling that the transgendered individual is trying to become someone they're not, an opinion that they are crossdressing for sexual or 'perverted' reasons, and so on. Yes there is a considerable amount of discrimination from within the transgendered community, mainly from those in the closet or who have issues with it, but the vast majority of cases of discrimination come from the non-transgendered.
quote:
ORIGINAL: aperversetwist
My dating experience as far as trans folk go is with FtMs I've been friends with MtFs.
This may explain why your perception differs from mine. FtM have similar issues, but they can be different from those affecting MtF. I'm writing here from the perspective that there is nothing 'right' or 'correct' for so much is down to one's own individual experience, perception and understanding of the issues. Therefore forming an opinion from what you've come across need not make what you think a fact, it's still an opinion. Not that there's any point scoring, at least not from me, for any opinion here on this thread must surely lead others reading towards enlightenment and promote understanding.
quote:
ORIGINAL: aperversetwist
Personal prefrence nothing more. Something I find a lot of trans folks don't seem to understand, personal preference. I've heard many the bewildered trans person wonder why their new BF/GF suddenly freaked because after several dates they found out the person they were with didn't have the factory standard equipment that was expected. Or better yet they find out from someone else. That's always a priceless look, "hey Bob did you know Stephanie used to be Stephen?"
This is why stealth is never a good strategy in forming intimate or close personal relationships. But rather than focus on the shock horror of finding out that Paula was once Paul (you'll get over it, trust me) it's worth pausing to think for a minute and understand that transitioning is extremely stressful, difficult, and often lonely - and this is a constant situation which can go on for many years. When you understand this you can probably understand why using stealth in close personal relationships, if they can get away with it, is tempting to many transgendered folk. I sometimes wonder if some of these men who have experienced such 'horror' would make such a big song and dance about it if they discovered that their partner uses a prosthesis due to having a leg amputated. Yes it should be disclosed, but not everybody is comfortable about disclosing their issues when they should.
quote:
ORIGINAL: aperversetwist
Trans folks so desperately want to be accepted as their gender that they fail to take into consideration that for most people gender equals genitals. You don't think so? Go down the street and ask 100 people what the gender of a person with a penis is or the gender of a person with a vagina. Come back and let me know your results. People have prefrences, respect that, it's safer for everyone. I knew a nice FtM who had the shit beaten out of him after sucking off a gay man who didn't know the kid was trans and was later told by his buddies. "Oh but gay men don't do that kind of thing" Bullshit, it happened.
Not all transfolk. You know it's academic moot just where the real issue lies here. Yes to almost everyone gender equals genitals. This was taught to everyone in early infancy and in the vast majority of cases it's a pretty reliable guide to determining the gender of someone. But not always. The population of the United Kingdom is currently 60 million people. According to Government estimates there are several thousand identifying themselves as transgendered, though this could be much more. Those transitioning would come to several thousand, so you can do the math and work out how likely it is for Joe Public to meet someone transgendered. I understand the concept of personal preference, but what I don't understand is that when many people discover that someone is undergoing (or intending to undergo) gender reassignment acceptance of their actual gender (not birth gender) suddenly becomes such a big issue which appears to be open to dispute or discussion. You see the most important stage of the whole transition process isn't the operation but the diagnosis and acknowledgement of actual gender at the start of the transition process. Some people are able to do this already, but for the others suffice to say the greater the distance and the less you have to deal with them the better your chances of acceptance.
It's a very simple matter, a correction of gender perception, but so many people struggle with this. You can look every inch a woman, but if your voice isn't within that 120-150Hz pitch range you get some people who will invariably address you as 'Sir'. In some cases (talking here about MtF) when you point this out they will argue with you. You get some people who take perverse delight into outing someone transgendered. 'It's a man' you hear, not 'it's someone transgendered' but 'it's a man'. I know another MtF who runs a pub out in South East London. What's the most interesting thing about her? It's not that she runs a pub, not that she's going through transition, it's the fact that 'she used to be a man'. I once had contact with a guy who claimed he could spot any transgendered female just by looking at her photo (you even get websites for these types).
quote:
ORIGINAL: aperversetwist
When you don't give someone the opportunity to choose to date a trans person and instead stealthily sneak it on them, yup you're gonna piss folks off. Oh yeah and you've just created one more person who legitimately has something against trans folks, thanks for the help.
And how many would take that opportunity if given the choice? I don't do stealth and don't agree with it, but there are mitigating factors. Now I bolded here the word 'legitimately' - so you are saying here that a bad experience with one or even a few justifies a prejudice against all transgendered folk? So what about the bad experiences with men or women, do you become prejudiced against women or men? Personally I feel that there should be a little perspective here and a sense of proportion. If someone you dated slept with you who was HIV positive and who didn't disclose it, and you became HIV then yes, I can understand why someone would make a big song and dance about it. But finding out that your woman still has a dick? Yes I understand the shock, the anger, even the horror, but not so much the emotional baggage which comes afterwards. I mean following similar logic may cause a woman to stop dating men just because she encountered a man with a very small penis. Would she be justified in hating men as a result? More fool me here for assuming logic is an integral part of developing a relationship but I admit it makes me wonder.
I won't even begin on how throwing someone's gender issues in their face tends to piss off most if not all transfolk.
quote:
ORIGINAL: aperversetwist
Don't take it personally. It's not an attack on you as an individual. It's simple truth. It takes your actions to turn it into an attack usually. Many trans folk feel the best way to get acceptance from a group is to begin with a gentle shelling from 155mm artillery followed by tanks and infantry. Actually the best way is one person at a time, slow and methodical, make friends, don't be confrontational. I worked with a leather group for a while. I remember being raked over the coals by a MtF at Pride whom I'd never met who said we weren't trans inclusive. Then I asked if she'd been to trans meeting group, and she had this sort of baffled look, she hadn't even bothered to find out that we were very trans inclusive already.
Ah but you see, here's the rub, I don't take it personally. Everyone has prejudices and preferences, I have them too. I just see a person who has issues, it's their issues, and there's not really much I can do about that. There is no best way to handle gender reassignment, it really is stressful, difficult and at best challenging, something which very few non-transgendered people ever really get to understand. This isn't just about taking hormones, physical changes and having an operation, you have to completely transition internally and change the way you live, the way you relate to others, everything. However I don't see where my being transgendered means that I cannot be confrontational - you have to be confrontational to some degree otherwise you're never going to get through the whole process. However it's always good to learn to pick your issues, your battles and your struggles. I'm not prepared to let someone walk all over me just because I'm transgendered. My strategy is simple, I am me, this is me as I am now, who I am next month may be different, more likely three months down the line, I am a work in progress, I am open, honest, and straightforward, because I have learned that acceptance gained through my personal integrity and being open tends to be best. I'd rather people didn't like me and walk away now rather than pretend to be my whole complete person just for the sake of popularity and acceptance.
You see I figured that I could be a naturally born female, and people will still not like me, they will still not accept me and they will still reject me. Therefore in essence being transgendered isn't a big issue for me personally, I'm female, just a different sort of female. I don't need the acceptance of the whole world or even the whole of society, just the people in my life, but most importantly, my own acceptance of me as I really am.
quote:
ORIGINAL: aperversetwist
Bottom line? You've discovered your true gender yippee for you. The world at large does not share your sense of elation.
I don't know where you get this sense of elation, because I for one am not celebrating. I didn't 'discover' I was female, it was something I always felt inside but for many years could never quite find the right words or explain, but you know you can feel, you can believe but there comes a point when you really have to know. All I got therefore was confirmation from my own life experience and from various psychiatrists and gender specialists. The world at large doesn't understand, and generally speaking doesn't want to understand, either through prejudice but mainly because the world at large has its own issues to deal with.
I mean, should I be elated by the fact that my 'family' is a couple of relatives, or should I be elated at the loss of a career, friends, numerous relationships, homes, jobs, and a certain amount of stability in life? No, I'm not elated, just taking things in my stride.
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