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RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 2:36:45 AM

candystripper

Posts: 3486
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Why are lawyers disliked ? Well one reason in the UK is the ridiculous fees they charge for mundane work.Things like probate, deed transfer of property, power of attorney.
Strictly speaking this work is done by soliciters in the UK. Everybody despises them. Its not yet illegal.
Rob ya they do. lol

I've always loved mysteries and have for years been fascinated by the ~odd to me~ set up of the British legal system.

But here in the US, I can think of several professions which habitually overcharge and yet escape the rancor the legal profession meets with. Take realtors for example. Thanks to state legislaltors, it is damned near impossible to navigate the intricacies of buying or selling real property here without the aid of a realtor. For their 'expertise' they routinely charge 5% of the selling price.....that's $5,000 on a home priced at $100,000.

By contrast, for $5,000 you can (generally) get a fully litigated divorce, including a child custody hearing; defend against a felony with a trial; rearrange millions in assets for tax or other purposes and save enormous sums; litigate for your professional license against a charge serious enough to put you out of business and (generally) save your livelihood...I could go on, but you get my point. What a realtor does by route, we do a case at a time and we have a wholly greater effect on matters of liberty, leagl status and financial standing.

Not by any means hating on realtors.

candystripper

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 21

RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 2:36:48 AM

DomDolf

Posts: 363
Joined: 7/11/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

Lawyers are some of the finest people I know. Caring about social injustice and actually doing something about it.

Are you a lawyer?!?!?!?!

Dolf

(in reply to lusciouslips19)

Post #: 22

RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 2:37:58 AM

JulieorSarah

Posts: 552
Joined: 8/25/2007
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I think it was Churchill who said something about Democracy and the legal system being appalling, ineffective, and simply just not that good.

however whatever his quote was i remember the ending ...

it beats the alternative!

Mayhem, chaos and anarchy?

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 23

RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 2:52:48 AM

DomDolf

Posts: 363
Joined: 7/11/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

I've always loved mysteries and have for years been fascinated by the ~odd to me~ set up of the British legal system.

But here in the US, I can think of several professions which habitually overcharge and yet escape the rancor the legal profession meets with. Take Realtors for example. Thanks to state legislaltors, it is damned near impossible to navigate the intricacies of buying or selling real property here without the aid of a Realtor. For their 'expertise' they routinely charge 5% of the selling price.....that's $5,000 on a home priced at $100,000.

By contrast, for $5,000 you can (generally) get a fully litigated divorce, including a child custody hearing; defend against a felony with a trial; rearrange millions in assets for tax or other purposes and save enormous sums; litigate for your professional license against a charge serious enough to put you out of business and (generally) save your livelihood...I could go on, but you get my point. What a Realtor does by route, we do a case at a time and we have a wholly greater effect on matters of liberty, leagl status and financial standing.

Not by any means hating on Realtors.

candystripper

Realtors have to pay for the advertising, the open houses and be available to show the homes. Also, only if a Realtor represents the buyer and seller will they ever see 5% plus they have to give, sometimes up to half, to their broker. I have seen home owners pay up to 6%, but with the factors already stated the Realtor may only see around $1500 one every $100,000 on a 6% contract. The more expensive the home the lower that percentage can go if the home owner negotiates effectively.

Dolf

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 24

RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 2:54:02 AM

Thadius

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It is not like this is a new phenom.

John Adams summed it up pretty well "I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a disgrace, two men are called a law firm, and three or more become a Congress."

Or perhaps Ben Franklin "A countryman between two lawyers is like a fish between two cats."

And last but not least...

"It is the trade of lawyers to question everything, yield nothing, and to talk by the hour." Thomas Jefferson

I am just amazed that such an intelligent group of scholars (lawyers) haven't been able to write a single law that is not defined well enough that it requires no debate. I suppose it is a great way to maintain job security.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 25

RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 3:13:56 AM

candystripper

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Well, yes, to a degree. The best way to increase legal fees for the affected group is to insert the word 'reasonable' somewhere in the bill. This guarantees the matter will be infintely litigable. Very, very little cannot be litigated somehow...if I wanted, I could bring a challenge to the Bill of Rights on some technical basis relating to how they were adopted. It wouldn't survive long as a suit but it would qualify as one briefly.

Having said that, I have written legislation, and I assure you, it is excruiatingly difficult to do so in such a way as to foreclose litigation. For example, in my heyday I was asked to help redraft the Florida Workers' Comp laws. Costs to employers were deemed by someone to have reached beyond the saturation point and insurers were pulling out of the market, not finding it sufficinetly profitable.

Anyway, the entire thrust of the legislation -- though we hotly denied this -- was to bring an end to litigation and substitute a simplified small claims style of appeal which simply did not permit representation by an attorney.

I'd say we were successful for about 6 months after the bill became law...about as long as it took the Supreme Court of Florida to hand down a decision contaning the dread word 'reasonable'. Then it was back to business as ususal.

candystripper

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 26

RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 3:20:44 AM

Thadius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

Anyway, the entire thrust of the legislation -- though we hotly denied this -- was to bring an end to litigation and substitute a simplified small claims style of appeal which simply did not permit representation by an attorney.

candystripper

See even you wanted to take lawyers out of a certain legal situation. Thus, I point out is why many folks that don't understand the nuances of the law, become even more skeptical of those in the profession. Let's face it, the line from "The Devil's Advocate" really is true. The practice of law is the new priesthood, it is a backdoor into everything.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 27

RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 3:30:10 AM

Vendaval

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Joined: 1/15/2005
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I was looking for a quote to fit this thread and found this one -

"In tribal times, there were the medicine men. In the Middle Ages, there were the priests. Today, there are the lawyers. For every age, a group of bright boys, learned in their trades and jealous of their learning, who blend technical competence with plain and fancy hocus-pocus to make themselves masters of their fellow men. For every age, a pseudo-intellectual autocracy, guarding the tricks of the trade from the uninitiated, and running, after its own pattern, the civilization of its day."

Fred Rodell

http://www.allgreatquotes.com/law_quotes.shtml

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 28

RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 3:31:49 AM

lusciouslips19

Posts: 9792
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomDolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

Lawyers are some of the finest people I know. Caring about social injustice and actually doing something about it.

Are you a lawyer?!?!?!?!

Dolf

NO. But my best friend is a lawyer. She is a Senior Advocate for public Aid. She defends Seniors against unnscrupulous predetory lenders. You should be hating on them NOT lawyers.

_____________________________

Original Pimpette,
Keeper of Original Home Flag and Fire of Mr. Lance Hughes
Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
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(in reply to DomDolf)

Post #: 29

RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 3:38:35 AM

candystripper

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One more post, and then I quit. I asked in the Op what fuels lawyer hatred, and now find myself defending lawyers, which is pointless, as so many will go hating on lawyers if for no other reason than the sheer fun of it...which I admit, is there.

Is a law degree a 'backdoor'? No. For the vast, vast majority of lawyers, they are in the wrong state, went to wrong school, lack the right pedigree, and are not talented enough to even hope to gain any sort of national acclaim or influence.

However, for the few who are properly poised by dint of all these things, as well as opportunity, luck, alliances, and more, yes, it can be. For example, the executive of the 'trade association' for insurance companies in DC wields enormous power, and no one knows who he is or sees his hand at work. There are many such positions, and the further up the food chain you go, the more concentrated the power.

The trouble with laying this off on lawyers is that individuals who possess this sort of power are also firmly entrenched in the upper-most class of society. I would posit that it is in fact the gathering of the super rich behind closed doors, and not the professional education, which gives rise to the source of power.

candystripper

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 30

RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 3:43:08 AM

Vendaval

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Joined: 1/15/2005
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Hey candy,

I have met and known some very good lawyers who defended the poor and the weak. Unfortunately those on the other side of the ethical divide have also made their mark.

I do not feel hatred for the profession in general, rather disgust at the ones who abuse the power and privelege.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 31

RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 3:48:05 AM

lusciouslips19

Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline

I dont see anyone hating on movie stars. Some make 37million a year or more. What do they contribute? Not hating on them just sayin....

_____________________________

Original Pimpette,
Keeper of Original Home Flag and Fire of Mr. Lance Hughes
Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
Princess of typos and it's my prerogative

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 32

RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 3:53:34 AM

DMFParadox

Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline

People do not hate your average web designer until they really get to know him, but Bill Gates, Sergey Brin et. al. are despised by legions.

Fact is, there are more lawyers in the halls of power than there are any other breed, except for business owners. And since the cost of entry into business is not a degree or arcane learnings, but is more... earthy; people don't hate the business types too much, until they're individual faces with known 'greedy' practices, which you have to have to some degree to be successful, but still.

Obama's a lawyer and Mitt Romney was a greedy businessman. Which one has the adulation of the nation right now? It's not black and white, if you'll pardon the pun.

_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 33

RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 3:53:52 AM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

One more post, and then I quit. I asked in the Op what fuels lawyer hatred, and now find myself defending lawyers, which is pointless, as so many will go hating on lawyers if for no other reason than the sheer fun of it...which I admit, is there.

Is a law degree a 'backdoor'? No. For the vast, vast majority of lawyers, they are in the wrong state, went to wrong school, lack the right pedigree, and are not talented enough to even hope to gain any sort of national acclaim or influence.

However, for the few who are properly poised by dint of all these things, as well as opportunity, luck, alliances, and more, yes, it can be. For example, the executive of the 'trade association' for insurance companies in DC wields enormous power, and no one knows who he is or sees his hand at work. There are many such positions, and the further up the food chain you go, the more concentrated the power.

The trouble with laying this off on lawyers is that individuals who possess this sort of power are also firmly entrenched in the upper-most class of society. I would posit that it is in fact the gathering of the super rich behind closed doors, and not the professional education, which gives rise to the source of power.

candystripper

A law degree alone also doesn't allow one to practice law in many places. Technically I could go and take the bar exam now, without my degree being in law.

I do agree about the ammount of power that rests in the hands of those further up the food chain. However my point about it being the backdoor into everything was a comment on society as a whole, not just the lawyers. You mentioned the number of crazy tortes that come up, and I would agree that there probably wouldn't be any of those without the client. It still doesn't change the fact that if somebody becomes offended, stressed, injured, disliked, or some in some other state (whether real or imagined), they are more likely to seek a lawyer today than the historically traditional places they would turn for solace (priests, community, family).

The perceived hatred of those that practice law, may or may not be warranted, but it is something that has existed ever since things began to be argued.

Just my thoughts,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 34

RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 4:02:58 AM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
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From: Pennsylvania
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"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" (King Henry VI, Pt. II)
-Shakespeare

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“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 35

RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 5:27:13 AM

candystripper

Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

I was looking for a quote to fit this thread and found this one -

"In tribal times, there were the medicine men. In the Middle Ages, there were the priests. Today, there are the lawyers. For every age, a group of bright boys, learned in their trades and jealous of their learning, who blend technical competence with plain and fancy hocus-pocus to make themselves masters of their fellow men. For every age, a pseudo-intellectual autocracy, guarding the tricks of the trade from the uninitiated, and running, after its own pattern, the civilization of its day."

Fred Rodell

http://www.allgreatquotes.com/law_quotes.shtml

LAST post in this thread, I SWEAR, lol.

Yes, there is a deliberate use of arcania to exclude the person of any intelligence from peering in and putting their affairs in order without a lawyer. Yes, it is sometimes there without any rhymn or reason.

A good example of this is a will. Barring some complexity, a person of average means and a high school education should be able to construct a will on their own which will distribute their property and accomplish anything else a will is supposed to do. Many stationary stores sell forms for this purpose.

HOWEVER, if it matters greatly to you how your assets are divided or if a dependent has to be protected by guardianship or trust, there is a very high likelihood that you will transgress some arcania of will drafting and execution and the probate court will refuse the document....so if it really matters....and why else would you be doing up a will?....you do in fact need a lawyer.

In fact, not just any lawyer will do...you need someone whose practce regularly includes will drafting...and you will probably be out about $500.

Same sort of problem with do-it-yourself divorces. The couple is amicable, the assets are few or are simple to transfer, there are no children...so off they go to divorce court.....and many years later discover there is a cloud over the 401k they forgot one of them had...or a bill was outstanding and forgotten and neither wishes to pay. If there are children the chances of success drop even further. So, once again, off go the couple to a family law lawyer to drop another $500, to be sure all will be well.

And so it goes. Hardest hit among the population, IMO, is the small business unfortunate enough to be in a regulated industry. After conquering the hurdles of business formation, workers comp, other insurance, payroll, etc., they face myriad and bizarrely written regulations which they have little way of penetrating -- nor will they be in any way alerted to changes in laws and regulations applicable to their business.

And so left alone without the resources for adquate legal assistance, they run a constant risk of loss from noncompliance. However, in fairness, this has as much to do with power hungry buereaucrats as it does covetous lawyers.

It could be changed....it would take a revolt on the part of the citizenry...but it could. Ever read your state's statutes on, say, murder? Fairly straightforward stuff for such a bevy of unforeseeable human behaviors.

Why?

Because the statutes are old and arose from codes of conduct which predate the present legal system and because no one would be enriched if they were made byzantine.

If that can be done...so can a stray regulation prohibitting swinging a dead cat over the left shoulder on Wednesdays following a full moon. Impentratable legalese is nothing more or less than what most people suspect -- very bad writing by someone with a higher education.

candystripper

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 36

RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 7:16:18 AM

Smith117

Posts: 1447
Status: offline

It can probably best be summed up as the perfect example of a love/hate relationship. For example:
The lawyer that gets us out of speeding tickets -- We love
The lawyer that gets a murderer off when everyone knows he's guilty as hell -- We hate
Our lawyer during a divorce -- We love
Our soon-to-be ex's lawyer in a divorce -- We hate
The lawyer who shows up to tell a woman burned by McDonald's coffee she's due some cash -- We hate
The lawyer who tells US that we're due some cash -- We love
The lawyer who helps us right a discriminatory "wrong" -- We love
The lawyer who dreams up a discriminatory "wrong" -- We hate

I think that about covers it.

Oh, and I agree about the cost thing. Lawyers are as bad as doctors. A radio host here once went off about how a firm charged him for 8 hours of "research" for his mom's legal case, and then stammered when the other lawyer the host hired to deal with that firm asked for "copies" of the supposed research. This was the same firm who charged the host everytime they had a 10-minute "hallway conversation" about his mom's case.

Look, we know law school is expensive, but that doesn't mean you have to charge us a $30 fee for stapling documents together.

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 37

RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 7:59:44 AM

DomDolf

Posts: 363
Joined: 7/11/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomDolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

Lawyers are some of the finest people I know. Caring about social injustice and actually doing something about it.

Are you a lawyer?!?!?!?!

Dolf

NO. But my best friend is a lawyer. She is a Senior Advocate for public Aid. She defends Seniors against unnscrupulous predetory lenders. You should be hating on them NOT lawyers.

There are plenty of people that are good in a not-so-good field. Please go back and read my original post on this. I "hate on" all forms of taking advantage and am always for the under-dog, not necessarily the victim mind you, but the real under-dog fighting unfair battles. There are many areas I am concerned about. In my field there are plenty of crooks making oodles on the misfortune of others every chance they get. Seeking EXTRA becuase someone is in a position to pay more or is needy is greedy and that is not acceptable. In no way am I saying profit is a dirty word. Greedy people are thieves of our society's temporary circumstances. If I see greed in any business deal whether a ridiculously disproportionately priced soda or a more substantial and sometimes even a personally more financially beneficial situation I am more likely to walk away rather than be taken advantage of or taking an unfair advantage of someone or some entity's situation. And be assured these aren't words on my part, I have left money on the table that most would say I am crazy for. My tag line below means more to me then my ability to walk or talk.

Dolf

(in reply to lusciouslips19)

Post #: 38

RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 8:30:35 AM

DominaYork

Posts: 49
Joined: 7/19/2008
Status: offline

Oddly, I'm reading this thread with CNN on in the background and the third 'did your doctor give you the drug <fill in the blank> and do you now have anal leakage' 'have you recently had a flipper baby and used to live under a power line' commerical in just this commerical break.

_____________________________

Some will say there is safety in numbers, tell that myth to the edge of the herd. ~ Blood from Gaia's Consort

(in reply to DomDolf)

Post #: 39

RE: Lawyer Hatred - 8/12/2008 8:37:18 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

Lawyers. I shall thin out the herd this afternoon.

Playing stick ball is all fun and games until someone pokes an eye out.

My criminal lawyer had been a judge.   It paid more to come to the other side. He of course would "help" me. But at $200 an hour- I would help too.

My point is- it seems innicent until you need one a few times. It is a racket.

The excuse over bad lenders.. think- relaxed laws which occured due to lobbyists which are lawyers are the reason why the lawyer is now needed   In fact this is now a theme.

The USA has more lawyers then any other place on earth per capita.

the onlything worse then court is binding mediation.

to be PC over lawyers is ni-eve.   to go ga ga over them is ni-eve.

dont you see? lawyers are only needed BECAUSE there are other lawyers.

(in reply to DomDolf)

Post #: 40

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