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MizSuz -> RE: Cuckolding (7/15/2006 8:07:47 AM)
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Ok, I've watched this thread go through several mutations, explanations and differences of opinion until it has been nearly talked out. Now it's my turn to bring it back to the top of the forum.
I think the OPs post bears out what I'm about to say.
In my world (please place all the "this is my opinion - your mileage may vary" disclaimers here) the term submissive cuckold is redundant. If a man is to be submissive to me then he may end up cuckolded by virtue of my personal preferences, but it's a side effect of the submission and not a focal point for the relationship. There is only one good reason for me to be sexual with anyone - because I want to (within the framework of my integrity). I will not have sex with someone because it feeds the fetish of another. That would be me subjugating myself, my body and my self-esteem to someone else's fetish - and that dog just won't hunt (won't even get off the porch).
I also don't play the "I'm with them because you're not good enough" game. I wouldn't have or be with someone who isn't good enough, so the foundational premise is invalid. For the purposes of this post I'm going to define "you're not good enough" as degradation play - not to be confused with humiliation play.
Let's look at a dictionary definition of "degrade":
As a verb transitive:
- To reduce in grade, rank, or status; demote.
- To lower in dignity; dishonor or disgrace.
- To lower in moral or intellectual character; debase.
- To reduce in worth or value.
- To impair in physical structure or function.
As a verb intransitive:
- To fall below a normal state; deteriorate (emphasis added by me).
- To undergo degradation; decompose.
I'm not a fan of degradation play because I refuse to be with pieces of shit. To be with someone who is not good enough says more about me than it does about the cuck. Don't get me wrong, I love humiliation and understand the humiliation needs of many submissives (although I don't claim to understand the humiliation needs of all submissives). I understand that their wiring causes endorphin dumps when they are humiliated and that endorphin dump is a large part of why we do what we do. I also understand that the needs and wants of both partners in a relationship must be served (or at least addressed) if the relationship is to survive. The word for the day, in regard to relationships, is "reciprocity."
In my experience the male who primarily identifies as a cuckold is already pretty well entrenched in conventional ideas regarding what is 'acceptable;' otherwise there would be no humiliation in the notion that his partner is sexual with other people. I'm of the opinion that there is plenty of room to work a humiliation fix within the context of the cuck's conventional ideas without resorting to degradation (of him or me). In short, he's stuck in society's notion of what acceptable is, and I'm happy to use that against him to achieve that humiliation tension point - it's not necessary to degrade (devalue, decompose, deteriorate) him too. I think degradation as deterioration is the point Akasha was trying to make. Ultimately this deterioration of the individual will have a detrimental effect on the relationship; how could it not?
Now let's look at a dictionary definition of "humiliation":
- The act of humiliating; degradation.
- The state of being humiliated or disgraced; shame.
- A humiliating condition or circumstance.
I don't personally see humiliation as degradation. In my view humiliation tends to come from within, brought about by ones own notions and perceptions of what is ok and what isn't. Humiliation play is the act of one person using another's perceptions against him. I think that can be done without debasing the individual. Degradation is one person devaluing another by insinuating or forthrightly stating that the person being degraded is substandard and unacceptable. Again, why would I accept someone who is substandard or unacceptable? In my mind it's incongruous and not at all flattering of me.
Which brings me to a common theme I've seen in a lot of men who identify as cucks first, then submissive. I've seen all together too many cucks insinuate that their lady is a whore or that they want their lady to be a whore. Now, I have no issue with a woman choosing to conduct herself in a fashion that she (or others) may perceive as 'whore' as long as she does it for her own reasons, but I do have an issue with being involved with someone who sees me that way. You see, if I WANT to go out and fuck anything that moves then that is my prerogative and, being a personally responsible individual, I don't see that as a devaluation of self. I do not, however, want to be involved with someone who devalues me. Which is to say, I do not use the word "whore" here to mean my own judgement regarding someone's sexual practices. I use it here to describe an attitude or view of one person regarding another. A lot of self identified cucks want to be with a woman they see as a whore. Again, for me, that dog don't hunt.
All together too often I see the sexual practices in a relationship that is founded in cuckoldry as more debasing of the woman than the cuck. Consider this - if the relationship is based in cuckoldry then the relationship is about the cuck's kink. It's about what triggers him, it's about what causes him to achieve that endorphin dump - often to the detriment of the lady involved. I've heard cucks say things like "YEAH!!! FUCK THAT BITCH - GIVE IT TO HER HARD!!!" Someone please explain to me what is submissive in this scenario because I certainly don't see it; nor do I have any interest in participating in same. I think the OP here alludes to this mind set and is a pretty good example of it.
However, I am completely on board with the honor and joy that can be had by a man that submits himself to a woman's desires. If I sleep with someone because I want to, and he is accepting of that because he loves me and because my personal preferences and enjoyment are what is paramount to him, that is indeed a gift and a dynamic I prefer. In fact, to some degree it humbles me. How could I not be humbled by someone giving me something I would never give another?
Please don't confuse the scenario I am describing as poly. I'm not talking about bringing a third into the relationship (although my preferences could encompass that). I am talking about a woman who is capable and desirous of hedonistic activities with someone outside of her relationship because she wants to. The fact that the man is cuckolded (in whatever form it may take) is a by product of the lady's preferences and cuckolded party's submission. The lady's behaviors are not a by product of the cuck's fantasy wants and needs, which seems to me to be the basis for cuckold based (as opposed to D/s based) relationships. I find the debasing of the lady, to use her body with another to meet the fetish needs of the cuck, objectionable (unless she also gets off on humiliation of herself). I do not enjoy feeling humiliated and would not use my body thusly.
I have no judgements about casual sex (it can be a very good thing) and have been known to participate in same when it suits me. Over the years I have learned, however, that it is very difficult to repeatedly place yourself in such an intimate situation with someone without there being some blending and attachments. It's doable, but to keep something sexually casual it's usually necessary to only participate casually, which is to say occasionally. Perhaps you have 10 "casuals" that you participate with (none ongoing and regular) and that can keep it casual, but to participate with a third repetitively and often increases your risk of emotional investment (either yours or the thirds). Once there is emotional investment the behavior is no longer casual and you now have a third in your life; and possibly in your primary relationship. Again, I have no judgements about polyamory but to believe that you can remain aloof and casual with someone you are intimate with on an ongoing basis seems to me to be rather self deceiving. Therefore its possible for cuckold relationships to become polyamorous relationships (whether the cuck is directly involved or not). I don't believe it's by default a truth nor do I think that it's necessarily a bad thing, but there is at least one foot of truth in the statement.
I agree that there is not much validity in the notion that women who are in cuckold relationships will inevitably 'fall for' and 'run off with' a bull. That doesn't speak to the relationship dynamic, it speaks to the caliber of woman you are interacting with. I can see how a cuck who believes his lady is no lady may be fearful of this occurance (and it's my belief that the 'you're not good enough' scenario feeds the 'my lady is no lady' scenario - after all, if a person has to tell you they are better than you then they probably aren't). A submissive who knows his lady does as she pleases, has integrity in her relationships and values the cuck's submission need not have this fear.
For me, submissive cuckold is a redundant term. Are you a cuck who wants your SO to debase herself for your own titillation or a sub who gets off on knowing the lady will do as she pleases, secure in the value she places in her relationship with you and in herself?
For me it's all about the latter. I have no interest in the former.
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