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Ok, what you have eloquently stated is that you have not discovered limits because your Master has not been overly sadistic, or pushed you in any direction (physical, mental, moral) that you refuse to go. Great, sounds like a very compatible relationship (no, it does not sound like the absence of limits).

As for "books"... who mentioned them? I did not. Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else, or arguing a point not made? Or simply got it wrong?

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Boils down really to ..do you always take as fact Everything you read?..Ofcourse not.

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ORIGINAL: darkangel
The fact is, that I - and this is a personal thing - I don't see any reason to count any non consensual activity as a limit.

~But, do you have limits - or (as mentioned) are death and dismemberment things which are within the context of your relational allowances?

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~I disagree - perhaps you do not belong to a local group, to an organizatio on a regional or national scale - but, you do belong (and, post frequesntly) to this group.. as such it is a defacto (yet, cyber) community in which you are a member.

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~Well - we have the basic rules that humanity has enforced for eons - SSC and RACK are simply reflections on a micro-sociological level of the "Golden Rule" - and, that is the basis for most laws that are in place in the countries of the world.

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~This is akin to saying: 'I can go anywhere within the walls of this prison, so I am a free man'. It is rather a reverse logic.

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~So - what you are saying is: the answer is 'yes' in the context of the community at large. Which is where such a question is poised.

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~Becaues they want to ensure that others understand where they are in their life relative to WIITWD.

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~So - posting generic limits is posturing/preening for effect? Wow.

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~So - the ethos here, is: "Screw um all... they will learn when they make the same mistakes I did"?

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~Well - not "worthless' in my estimation - just not worth as much.

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~You are in England - aren't you? ;)

LoL... I am... which I love... but I don't 'belong' to England - I am a global child and a child of God.

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~I agree with that - but, then so is childhood - and, they saw fit to provide us with schools and those dreaded parental things that hung over us and goaded us into the right course of action.....

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ORIGINAL: Rover

Seriously, are you just taking an adversarial stance because you think that you should (and perhaps have some animosity towards me), or do you really not understand what you have read (and posted here for us all to see)?

Either way, that's your issue. Hope you work it out.

John

Dear John (I love writing these letters...lol)

There is no adversarial stance. I just say how I think. It is pointless to try and find faults with people, but much better to view and understand their positive attributes. And I have no animosity towards anyone - to do so would be both futile and against my beliefs... seriously, ask anyone...

Please though, instead of being condecending... tell me what you see and think that I wrote. I believe seeing others perceptions of what I have written is a wonderful learning tool. Like LoD... who kindly explained His impressions and was able to place my mistakes that gave Him misinformation on what I said because I typed to fast. It helps so that I can maybe explain something You might not understand or may have misunderstood... Communication is a wonderful thing.

The only thing I do feel sad about is that you presume that I have some sort of dislike for you. I do understand that You have had countless nastiness thrown at you - many people do and personally I don't think it is fair... but do not for one moment think that everyone is the same, or thinks the same... some people admire Your strength and determination.

Peace and Rapture

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ORIGINAL: Delvin

Interesting to this point as the conversation has gone from this forum to my Home. I will for the sake of curiosity give a limit that is not allowed in my home.

Scat.

You do it in the toilet, you flush it and life goes on. I dont want it on my hands, my face her face her hands, on the walls the floors or any where else except for it's intended spot. The toilet. This is a limit that was discussed as starshine and I started talking more and more when we met. Now, does this "limit" still have value? Not really. It isn't something I wake up to in the morning and go, okay, lets review our scat limit...

It was something and IS something to start out a conversation with and give the other person an idea of your personal beliefs and work from there. Limits are the same labels as "I like long walks on the beach, I love to walk the dog in the park and I love to fly kites". Means the same (Most of us have come to agree that the word Limits applies to the lifestyle we live in).

Really, I do believe we are all making too much out of this "no limit" issue as with alot of the other labels that really seem to bother or upset some. Many claim, to each their own, as long as they believe what I believe in.

huh?

If a slave claims she has no limits, who does it hurt? The person reading the profile or the slave writing it? Well, perhaps "asking" the girl, what she means by no limits, she states that she only has limits set by her Master, then you all of a sudden understand and can continue the conversation. It really isn't that deep of a philosophy.

Now, does starshine have limits that are her own and are still in place?

Only if I let them be there :)

Have a nice day

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When it's hard to grasp, it is because the meaning is sometimes ambiguous. When I am having a discussion with two subs/slaves, and one tells me she has a "no scat" limit, but the other says she has no limits except her master's- that she doesn't do scat, but the reason is that her master doesn't permit nor require it--- do you see the possible confusion here?

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ORIGINAL: Patrick2005

When it's hard to grasp, it is because the meaning is sometimes ambiguous. When I am having a discussion with two subs/slaves, and one tells me she has a "no scat" limit, but the other says she has no limits except her master's- that she doesn't do scat, but the reason is that her master doesn't permit nor require it--- do you see the possible confusion here?

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ORIGINAL: candystripper

i used the phrase "submissive with slave tendencies" in my profile before (it's not there now). i don't feel any more proof of the confusion and lack of communication is needec as to this phrase than these 5 pages of debate over what they are related words or phrases mean. i know what i wish to convey; that i suspect my submission would be quite deep with my One but i hesitate to mark myself as a "slave". i think it would be a personal journey and i doubt the catagory would matter much to Him, but if it did, then i'd probably not protest at being called a "slave".

As for "no limits" i agree, unless you define it, it makes no sense on its face. However, for people who feel it conveys someything have at it; it does not offend me or make me believe you are naieve. Again, i cannot understand the ire this simple phrase raises.

candystripper

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ORIGINAL: darkangel

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The fact is, that I - and this is a personal thing - I don't see any reason to count any non consensual activity as a limit.

~But, do you have limits - or (as mentioned) are death and dismemberment things which are within the context of your relational allowances?

As I replied to Rover. Some death is consensual.

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As I replied to Rover: No limitations.

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~I disagree - perhaps you do not belong to a local group, to an organizatio on a regional or national scale - but, you do belong (and, post frequesntly) to this group.. as such it is a defacto (yet, cyber) community in which you are a member.

I participate in many local groups - be that BDSM, religious, or the local salvation army. But they are not my community. I don't 'belong' to them. I don't subscribe to their ideals and standards. I am merely a visitor.

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I have my own. These, belong and are Masters. He does not belong to anything.

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We as people(Demon and I) are not part of any herd or community. We simply exist as ourselves, take or leave us.

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Just because I write frequently here, does not make it 'my' community. It makes it somewhere I hang out, read, learn and think. But I do not follow the ideals as far as the ideals are mine. If I wanted to break the TOS for example, I would... and I would expect to be banned. But I have no need nor desire to and if I did - I still wouldn't because I would just leave. It's not that important to me.

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~Well - we have the basic rules that humanity has enforced for eons - SSC and RACK are simply reflections on a micro-sociological level of the "Golden Rule" - and, that is the basis for most laws that are in place in the countries of the world.

To assume that everyone who practices BDSM follows either SSC or RACK is naive at best.

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And even if you could prove that everyone follows SSC or RACK...

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then everyones SSC or RACK is different... so SSC and RACK are in reality nothing more than a conversation starter - and thats not a bad thing - but they do not present community.

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Community is a group of people who share commonality.

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It could be said that BDSMs commonality is perversion - but not all BDSMers are perverts...

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maybe individualists - but even thats not true... because some BDSMers don't practise that...

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Now, You show me the commonality and I will conceed. But I have yet to find it.

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~This is akin to saying: 'I can go anywhere within the walls of this prison, so I am a free man'. It is rather a reverse logic.

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Life is a prison. Freedom comes to those with patience.

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~So - what you are saying is: the answer is 'yes' in the context of the community at large. Which is where such a question is poised.

I do not speak for the community because there isnt one.

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And even if there was, I am not the communities leader, and I would not be as presumptuous to speak for everyone.

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I speak for myself - the individual. The question was not 'TO THE COMMUNITY' it was personal ideas, thoughts and perceptions.

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~Becaues they want to ensure that others understand where they are in their life relative to WIITWD.

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But as you have tried to state - SSC and RACK is the commonality

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- if I am to accept this stance, then non consensual activities are not needed to be stated?

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So why should people feel they need to say 'I don't do (unmentionables)?... In a relationship where a boy and a girl are getting married without wiitwd, do you see people out there saying 'my limits are ....(unmentionables)??

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... It makes not one bit of sense... Its fucking illegal(not that legalities always count)... disturbed and abusive... and its NON CONSENSUAL.

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~So - posting generic limits is posturing/preening for effect? Wow.

Damn right it is. And its not for me. But if it makes them happy and pulls in the right birds for them - let then at it.

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~So - the ethos here, is: "Screw um all... they will learn when they make the same mistakes I did"?

No. Not screw them, but let them make the mistakes and be there as good support when they need it. We can tell a person a mango tastes sweet - but not whether they will like it or not or if it may be too sweet for them. To know the truth for them, they have to experiences at their own pace...

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LoL... I am... which I love... but I don't 'belong' to England - I am a global child and a child of God.

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LoL... I was never very fond of school... life taught me more... and my blessed Grandmother... and parents who taught me of my individuality...for whom I am truely grateful....

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ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

Well - we are specifically refering to a scenario where your master walks in one day and states: "Hey - you know what - I decided to kill you today. Get me some rope and turn around".

Now - you can weasel about with inanities here.. state that he "would never do such a thing" or that "This is an understood limit - But, I am willing to bet that should he do so - and, you believed him, you would be running ourt the door in the hopes that this mentally incapacitating paradigm that he finds himself in will also have an adverse effect on his knee ligatures preventing him from running after you.

~J

Ouch - head hurts...lol

Thank YOU for those well thought responses.

Instead of going throught the whole discussion... (it will take to long and I do have a life...lol)

Murder is murder - it is not consensual. Therefore it does not enter the equasion. I think the major thing you do not seem to grasp about my responses - it the consensuality concept...(which BTW, I am writing to your offboard, because another thing you seem to have misunderstood is unmentionables - which I can't mention, obviously on board).These are also not consensual. I believe once you grasp that concept you will understand re your statement...

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I have absolutely NO idea what this is in relation to as it is a sincere tangent fromt he prior statement and appears absolutely non sequitor.

LoL... as for the card comments - I am the wrong person to try to be sarcastic with on that count... I don't subscribe to anything. I have no cards, no credit card, air miles, shop cards, discount cards - I have no affiliations unless I wish to. If it was not so true, your posturing wouldnt be so funny.
No, I don't have those SA magazines so no need to wipe...lol... even the CM mail does not arrive. I do not even subscribe to the organisations I support and contribute to (however, I do feel community with these organisations - one does not have to subscribe to be part of a community)

For your further information, I never said at any time that I do not believe or belong to any communities... that is your misleading representation of me with your words. I would appriciate that you do not try to misrepresent that which you do not understand. What I said is I don't subscribe to a 'community' just because it is expected and that I don't think or believe BDSM as a community And that CM isn't, to me a community. To others, sure... some people spend all their time here... lol... I probably look as though I do at times, I am just a fast typer... But if you want to call it a community - then go ahead - you do not need my recognition (I am sure you are relieved of that) But to understand what I was saying, you have to see things from my point of view - not yours - because we are different(thankfully, I am sure again - that you are)

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But, in the interim while deciding that, please do delete your profile and quit the group so that we might prove the point you are making to be true - rather than something that is simply convenient.

When I desire to, or when my Master decides, then I will. But you, sad though you may be at knowing this, cannot get rid of me. Like I said - I have no commonality with you and therefore, do not have to do anything that you say.

As people said before - if it doesn't bother you or affect you what does it matter? If individuals are happy within their dynamics - so what? If I am aware of what my definition of limits is(like Rogue mentioned) thats for me. Would I say mind your step - lol - I would probably fall first! Seriously - I wouldn't warn them if I hadn't experienced the trip myself. If I had experience, I would say if I found it difficult or hard to miss for me etc... but I couldn't stop it happening for them. Hey, I always dial emergancy fast and am great at first aid when they trip anyhow...

Your misrepresentation of my words when taken out of context is quite amusing, you have a certain knack for entertaining wordplay(And who said americans don't do irony). However, these misrepresentations are also quite clear to all who can read. I believe if you want to understand people, you need to have a certain compassion or/and empathy and be able to step out of your limits and listen, instead of respond with sarcasm when you do not agree - or rather, when they do not submit to your ideas. Whilst its funny, it isn't conducive to learning or gaining wisdom.

Peace and Love

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ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

For space sake I took out the other senarios presented. Basically what I find is that in the years I've been with my owner the challenges I've had with taking on his limits and constantly striving to keep nothing off boundaries are so much more benign than murder that its just mind bogglingly stupid to even think about a hypothetical like that. I do have actual instances where what he wanted bumped up HARD against what had been initially stated (and if I were single again) limits. But it is impossible to have a realistic and non inflammatory discussion on getting to the point of really not keeping boundaries from ones owner if the examples automatically go extreme without any basis in at least *my* day to day life.
C~

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ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

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ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

For space sake I took out the other senarios presented. Basically what I find is that in the years I've been with my owner the challenges I've had with taking on his limits and constantly striving to keep nothing off boundaries are so much more benign than murder that its just mind bogglingly stupid to even think about a hypothetical like that. I do have actual instances where what he wanted bumped up HARD against what had been initially stated (and if I were single again) limits. But it is impossible to have a realistic and non inflammatory discussion on getting to the point of really not keeping boundaries from ones owner if the examples automatically go extreme without any basis in at least *my* day to day life.
C~

Then there are limits present in your relational dynamic - complete and in place, whether you desire to admit them or not- which is the point I am making (and, as I mentioned - someone might rationalize it by stating "Well - of course <THAT> is a limit" - but, it IS a limit - complete and intact - no matter of it is defacto or not).

Rationalizations about 'what you do' do not change facts.

(Have I mentioned I am a stickler about people's honesty with others).

~J