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Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 1:02:08 AM   
SmartQuietMan


Posts: 10
Joined: 7/5/2004
Status: offline 		Ok.  First things first.  I am not a guy just looking for kinky sex.  I have been in the lifestyle for over 10 years, belong to local kink/fetish groups and very much enjoy the aspect of submission.  And not the kind of submission where the "sub" tells the "dom" what they want or provides a script.  Now that we've gotten that out of the way...

I would like to understand why many FemDommes absolutely refuse to combine BDSM with any sort of sex.  A very knowledgable, national BDSM educator I know said this is referred to as being stone in some circles.  He also said that it seemed fairly common in FemDommes but very rare in male Dominants.  I do not understand this.

In another thread a woman (domminant I believe) pointed out that no FemDommes she knew were actually frigid or didn't have sex.  That the opposite was more freqeuntly true, which also meshes with my personal knowledge and experience.  I know some Dommes who admit to having very high sex drives.  They these same women draw a line in the sand and make it perfectly clear that they *never* combine sex and BDSM.  Why?

I'm perfectly aware that BDSM does not need to include sex.  Though most male Dominants do seem to have sex with submissives.  I can't think of any I know who completely rule out any possibility of sex with submissives.  It makes good sense that any Dom/me wouldn't want to have sex with every sub/bottom they played with (some get around as a Top/Dom quite a bit).  But for women to make it a hard stipulation that they never do seems wrong.  It makes me think that maybe something is broken somehwere.  Due to our male dominant society there are not a lot of strong, dominant women out there.  I'm sort of wondering if the apsects that most commonly lead women to become dominent also cause some psycological pathology that causes them to be stone.  Please note for clarity that I am most certainly not claiming ALL FemDommes to be stone, but it does seem to me that most are.

Lets consider an example.  Awhile back I met this new Domme, we talked for a bit on-line and then agreed to meet.  She made it clear that we would not play on our first meeting (nothing unusual there).  Things went very well though and when I drove her back home she invited me in and we playing a bit.  She ended up forcing me to go down on her which I thought was totally hot and she clearly got off on many times.  She then contemplated fucking me out loud which really surprised me.  She said it would be a one time thing and we both mutually decided not to proceed with that.  That night I left a very happy man thinking we were going to get along great.  I met with her a few more times after this, each subsequent time she was cold, somewhat distant and there was absolutley no sexual contact.  Not at all like that first evening.  The emotional coldness got to me more than anything I think.  So I finally ended up asking if there was a problem.  She said there wasn't but I could tell that wasn't the whole truth so I asked more questions.  When the topic of sex came up she got very annoyed and said that she does not have sex with submissives.  This shocked me. 

I'm pretty good at reading people and what I managed to piece together is this: She was most likely upset at herself for having ever done anything sexual with me.  I could hear it in her voice when she talked about it.  She freely admits to having a very high sex drive and being nearly insatiable.  Clearly she enjoyed it at the time.  I'm not disgusting or unappealing (I have no problem getting sex - other than from FemDommes).  So this really bothered me.

I walked away from the above feeling like she looked down on me and thought less of me becaouse I was submissive to her.  The idea of having sex with me seemed to be very unappealing, maybe even disgusting to her.  I may be submissive but I have high self esteem.  So this did not work for me because I don't like being made to feel inferior.

Now I simply won't consider a relationship with any FemDomme who says they never have any sexual contact with submissives.  I really don't want avoid that type of situation again.  Unfortuantely, it almost seems like this decision also means that I simply won't be able to find any Domme.  Because the majority seem to completely separate BDSM from sex.

Which brings me back to: Why?  I would really like to understand this.

Thanks in advance,
SQM


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RE: Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 1:42:08 AM   
BiteGirl


Posts: 293
Joined: 4/27/2006
Status: offline 		Some people put BDSM and sex in different compartments.
It's their sexuality. Why do people have to question it?
It's like asking someone, "why are you gay?"

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RE: Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 2:52:46 AM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline 		I can't speak for others, these are purely my reasons:

1) BDSM/PE are two separate things for me that are sometimes overlapped, with the right people, in the right situation, at the right time.  They aren't inherently connected for me, they're just all part of the larger category "thinks I like/ways I live".  The one doesn't need the other to be pleasing and fulfilling for me.

2)  It's very rare for me to find someone submissive to me sexually attractive.  It happens from time to time, but it's unusual.  Mostly I am attracted to those on an equal level as far as power-exchange.

3) It is often a very strong tool/symbol of defining a sub/slave's place, since sex, sexuality and major aspects to them are such a large part of most people.

4)  When I acquire a friend or lover, it may turn out that they are submissive to me... those are the few cases where I've found a sub sexually attractive and acted on it at times -because it was an equals relationship with a D/s dynamic.  However, when I am searching for a sub/slave I am not looking for that; I'm specifically looking for a relationship based in inequality from the beginning.  A lover who is also now my submissive is much different than a submissive I acquired specifically for a D/s relationship.  It is a different, separate relationship that rarely to never turns sexual due to answer #2 and because I'm just plain looking for something other than a girl/boyfriend...  Again, it's just a different relationship being sought is all, a different type of compatibility and ease.  If I wanted a sexual partner, I'd just go out and get another sexual partner and then find out if they were inclined towards D/s in any way, shape or form or not.  BDSM/PE not being tied into my sexuality, I'm not searching for someone that is both things; I've separate sets of needs and desires that I'm fulfilling that, again, sometimes, rarely, overlap.

5)  In short, to orgasm or come close to it I have to let go of control over myself and the other person.  I have to relax and allow that other person, even if I'm directing themin what I like, to manipulate my mind and body, create feelings and reactions in it in a manner where I must let go completely for seconds to minutes. For me, that is switching and I am not okay with doing so with someone who the very basis of our relationship is my being in control of myself and them.

< Message edited by RumpusParable -- 8/18/2008 3:10:50 AM >

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RE: Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 2:55:01 AM   
LaMistressa


Posts: 460
Joined: 12/4/2006
Status: offline 		I would like to understand why many FemDommes absolutely refuse to combine BDSM with any sort of sex.  A very knowledgable, national BDSM educator I know said this is referred to as being stone in some circles.  He also said that it seemed fairly common in FemDommes but very rare in male Dominants.  I do not understand this.

Um, who is this presenter? Because I need to send him one of our memo updates.

This is news to me, but I guess I'm just a bad FemDomme. If I keep it up they may take away my Domme card or something.

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RE: Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 3:04:55 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Personal side note:  Rumpus, it was great seeing you this weekend.

To the OP, one of the additional reasons along with those RP already gave is the fact that some of us don't want our D/s dynamics based on sexual overtones.  When a person submits to Me, I want to know that submission is not especially based in something as easily swayed as lust.  That's not what it is for Me.  I want a better reason for someone wanting to submit than what's between their legs, or Mine for that matter.   There are better places for one to find their submissive desires than the genitals.


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RE: Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 3:19:20 AM   
MsStarlett


Posts: 1879
Joined: 12/23/2007
Status: offline 		Ok... Here's deal.  Not everyone is the same.  (Let's get that out of the way because we ALL know what Malloves69 & his Mistress do.  I'm sure he'll chime in here in a moment.)

Generally speaking, this is the ying and yang of the way males & females view sex.  How often do you hear a man cry rape?  It's really difficult for a woman to 'force herself' upon a man.  (Unless we're talking strap-ons, and, again, I'll bow to Mal on that one.)  Most males believe that ANY sexual contact is good.  Not so with females.

I can point you toward at least one male Dom on this board who can't seem to refer to his subs as anything but 'Fuck Meat'.  Now, I'm a female supremest and that male's comments make me so angry that I wish there was an ignore feature on this site.  (I won't call that cretin a MAN as he is obviously over compensating for something.)  However, he is a prime example of how male Doms use sexual contact as a form of humiliation, for pain and suffering.  Every time I see a Dom throat fucking a bound female with an O gag in her mouth I want to shove a broom handle up his ass until it comes out his nose.  But that's just me.  K?  You get the idea.  Sex is not always fun for both partners.

Now, we go back to MOST men find anything thing that makes them cum to be pleasurable.  There's not a lot of sexual contact that doesn't flip those triggers for men.  As the OP mentioned, even being 'forced' to lick the Mistress is a huge turn on for most men.  Even men who are ass play paranoid usually get over that pretty fast as soon as Mistress finds his prostate.  Many, if not most, subs BEG to be sex slaves... to be Mistress's bitch whore and be fucked constantly by her or even to be 'forced' into doing bi or homosexual acts.  When it comes to women having sexual contact with a male - it's pretty much all good.   Therefore, sexual contact with the Domme is the ultimate reward for the very good sub.  The torment comes from DENYING sexual contact with the sub.

That's it in a nut shell.


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RE: Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 3:20:34 AM   
MsStarlett


Posts: 1879
Joined: 12/23/2007
Status: offline 		Oooh!  We all jumped on this thread at the same time!  I just type slow.  Now I have to go back and read what you Ladies said while I was typing.

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RE: Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 5:24:14 AM   
MsCfromMelbourne


Posts: 777
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline 		Hi and welcome SmartQuietman

This really is a FAQ!

I do not know any Domme in real life who is asexual, frigid or has her own chastity fetish.  Quite the opposite.  I find Dommes are far more sensual and sexually alive than their vanilla sisters.

HOWEVER in my experience:

1    Most pro-dommes (in my home town at least) will not have vaginal sex with clients.  That does not mean they never take very special clients as lovers, but doing so tends to wreck their professional and commercial relationship. Some do offer other forms of sexual stimulation eg tie'n'tease, strap-on play, milking, prostate massage, pussy worship, ass worship etc etc but insist this is not "sex" per se and hence they are not sex workers.  So the first point is to define "sex"

2    Some lifestyle (non-pro) dommes feel they cannot effectively dominate a man and have penetrative sex as an expression of love with the same man. But that is not true of all Dommes.  Some reasons have been given above.

3     Most Dommes IME have some "friendship" based D/s relationships where they will dominate a man they feel no sexual attraction for at all.  Many men will grab the opportunity to be in a sex-less D/s friendship because any Mistress is better than no Mistress until Mistress Right comes along.  The D/s can still be great fun even though we are not looking for sex

4   Some Dommes say they do not "do sex" with submissives because they are already in monogamous relationships (especially married) and wish to be faithful.  That does not mean they are not incredibly turned on by their submissive and want to screw him. 

5   Some Dommes are frigid, asexual or lesbian and hence don't want sexual love with any man, submissive or not. 

6    Some Dommes have ingrained ideas from religion/family upbringing that "giving" men sex is a "submissive" thing to do or exploitation and hence is disempowering, not powerful.

7    Some women also carry strong ideas from childhood that "sex is dirty" and "good girls don't love sex".  They are attracted to BDSM because it seems to offer extreme intimacy (what could be more intimate than ownership of another human being body and soul?) with no threat of that "dirty sex business".    

8  Fear of intimacy and sex for very unpleasant reasons.  Some Domme’s preference for celibacy is caused by previous sexual abuse especially in childhood (which is very sadly not unusual)

9   Some Dommes frankly do not like and respect submissive men.  They see them as weak, stupid men who can be bullied and used (as, say, free house cleaners).  Sex with these Dommes is a reward only befitting "alpha" men, other Dominants and/or even vanilla men.  They do not believe male submission can ever be an expression of sexual love that should be honoured. 

However note that the sexually rejecting Domme is a very popular male fantasy, so these Dommes have no trouble finding eager subs. 

10  Sexual rejection is so popular in fact that Dommes often pretend they are not sexually available to make themselves more sexually alluring.  Dommes are Mistresses of reverse psychology!!  We know its the thrill of the chase that turns on males, and we lead them a very merry chase indeed .  Dommes don't fall on their backs with their legs in the air.  Bedding a Domme is only for the very, very handsome, charming and well behaved.

11   Many men see a BDSM personal site and think "Great!  Kinky women must be horny, slutty whores and too stupid to charge me".  Kinky women are of course not easier.  Probably less so.  But to deter that kind of slime, many kinky women will put "no sex" in their profile.  Then only consider a man willing to pursue her with (theoretically) no prospect of kinky sex.

12  Good submissives are kind and considerate.  Some women just cannot enjoy sex with men who are nice to them and easily woo-ed.   Only difficult, bad boys who play hard-to-get turn them on.  Since submissives are usually respectful, they are not sexy.  There is no thrill of the chase.  A submissive who makes it politely clear he does not submit to just anyone can find an erstwhile celibate Domme will start flirting with him


My personal philosophy:

In a loving D/s relationship, sex is an expression of love (albeit very alternative love!).  Penetration does not make me feel any less dominant, exploited or - egads! - submissive.

I am a sexual Dominant.  I need full control of who, how and when to get my rocks off.

I consider having sex with vanillas is vanilla and submitting to sex with Tops/Doms is submissive (what else could it be????).  I am hardwired a Dominant, so I cannot enjoy shagging vanillas or Doms. I have tried, believe me!!!

I can have sex with a man as long as lets me control everything, including whether he gets to cum.  In other words, they have to submit, even if they don't want to call themselves a submissive. 

Sexual Dominants can only really partner with genuine sexual submissives (in my experience.

The lady was attracted to you then felt conflicted.  I don't think she felt conflicted because she is a "Domme".  But only she can explain why she let herself go once, then felt post play regret.  The rest of us are just speculating.

< Message edited by MsCfromMelbourne -- 8/18/2008 5:56:36 AM >

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RE: Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 6:05:27 AM   
MsCfromMelbourne


Posts: 777
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline 		I just noticed the OP has revived an 8 month old thread on the same subject.  Apologies to everyone the extent the above post is rehashing my earlier posts 

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RE: Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 6:31:15 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		For me sex is always involved in my scenes because frankly whipping someone makes me horny. But that is just me. Of course the sex is done My way and when I want it because I'm the Boss.

~Lashra


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“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”






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RE: Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 6:58:26 AM   
Pyrrsefanie


Posts: 1222
Joined: 9/18/2007
From: NEW HAMPSHAAAAAAH!
Status: offline 		No... sex?  What is this you're talking about, crazy man?

Some people, I'll tell you.


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Read my series, Taking Jessica, on http://www.akashaweb.com !

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RE: Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 8:02:52 AM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Does it matter??  Honestly, each person is the different.  Some like blonds, some like redheads; some like thin, some like thick; some like dark, some like pale; some combine D/s into their every day life, some are "weekend warrior" types; some combine their D/s with sex, some don't.  If you find out that someone has preferences that you can't live with, then move on.  It isn't really any of your business what other people do (or don't do) in their bedrooms as long as they aren't involving you in it.

On the flip side - have you ever considered how many submissives think that they should never have sex with their PYL?  I've lost count of how many have said "no thanks" to us because they found out that I fully intend to have whatever kind of sex I want with our boy(s) because I want to.  Why aren't you asking them why they won't have sex at their PYL's desire?

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RE: Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 8:11:46 AM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		I never LOOK for sex with submissives. If it happens to work out to where I decide I do want it, then I make that decision later. Personally, I know I had stated fora long while that I did not allow it when I was still searching becasue it weededout the types, like the OP, who refuse to be in a situation where there was no sex involved. I have no desire to be with someone who makes sex a mandatory part of any relationship we are in. Vanilla or otherwise, sex should not be part of the job, required at intervals or everything is undone.
Angel serves with absolutely no sex. He never has had it and never intennds on asking me for it. Fox is different, though when he came to me it wasnt with the intention of looking for sex either.
To each their own, of course. Some Dominants I know (male and female) will not have sex with submissives becasue they do not respect them enough to honor them that way. Others dont think aoutthe submissive during sex at al, and couldnt care less if they enjoyed the act since they were just a tool. Some, like me,dont allow it to be a requirement in the relationship.  Different strokes for different folks.

DV


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RE: Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 8:16:02 AM   
faerytattoodgirl


Posts: 5824
Status: offline 		its not just dom's that disallow it...i dont allow sex...i dont even offer it.

the issue is that many in bdsm think bdsm is just sex and nothing else.  they dont realize the two are separate things.  the S in bdsm does not mean SEX.


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RE: Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 9:01:22 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Everyone has already hit the highlights for me, especially Rumpus and Lady Pact. 

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RE: Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 9:24:10 AM   
ShaktiSama


Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline 		*shrug*  I like sex, myself.  I prefer exclusive or monogamous relationships, and it's impossible to have a successful monogamous relationship with someone who does not fulfill the full range of my physical and emotional needs.  People who keep multiple partners with specialized functions can use some for sex and others for various types of play, I'm sure; I prefer one sub who can multi-task. 

< Message edited by ShaktiSama -- 8/18/2008 9:25:32 AM >

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RE: Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 9:38:08 AM   
aidan


Posts: 904
Joined: 5/28/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl
the issue is that many in bdsm think bdsm is just sex and nothing else.  they dont realize the two are separate things.  the S in bdsm does not mean SEX.


Well, no, this isn't entirely true. Sex and BDSM are two separate things for you. And for a good number of people, especially Dommes, it would seem.

For some of us, the two concepts or intrinsically entwined. Personally, I need a sexual aspect to a BDSM relationship because BDSM is a sexually gratifying activity.

Other people keep the two in separate mental and emotional areas, and others allow for a little overlap. I've never really concerned myself with the "why" of it. It just comes down to those Dommes and I not  being compatible.


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RE: Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 9:42:36 AM   
Venatrix


Posts: 2238
Joined: 11/28/2007
Status: offline 		Actually, I much prefer sex with BDSM.  There really is a multitude of types out there; keep exploring.

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RE: Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 11:00:46 AM   
SmartQuietMan


Posts: 10
Joined: 7/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I just noticed the OP has revived an 8 month old thread on the same subject. Apologies to everyone the extent the above post is rehashing my earlier posts

My apologies if that was not appropriate.  I started my quest by doing a search and found a couple of other threads.  But, while they did relate to sex, they did not address what I was looking for.  Trying to understand the motivation behind this corelation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsCfromMelbourne
This really is a FAQ!

Wow, thanks.

I am most certainly not the typical submissive male.  I do not enjoy the chase, denial, rejection nor being endlessly teased.  I do not play nor appreciate games in any sort of relationship.  Players are not only men, women engage in different but similar behaviors.  I prefer substance, honesty and doing what is enjoyable to both parties.  Enjoyable does not mean giving the submissive what they want when they want it - but the overall relationship should be positive for both partners.  Relationships where the dominant (male, female or otherwise) actually looks down on and does not fully respect the submissive are not positive in my view.  If you don't respect them, why would you bother to have any sort of relationship with them at all?

quote:

Sexual rejection is so popular in fact that Dommes often pretend they are not sexually available to make themselves more sexually alluring

That's good to know.  Maybe there is a ray of hope then.

quote:

Many men see a BDSM personal site and think "Great! Kinky women must be horny, slutty whores and too stupid to charge me"

Yes and I'd love to kick them where it hurts for that.  They cause so much fodder that those who do not fit that mold have a very difficult time getting anywhere.  Particularly since many of those jerks are perfectly happy to lie, so that puts all male subs at the disadvantage of being distrusted from the start.

quote:

Some Dommes frankly do not like and respect submissive men. They see them as weak, stupid men who can be bullied and used (as, say, free house cleaners).

Yes and I have a person problem with these.  Much the same reaction that MsStarlett has to O rings and mouth fucking by male dominants.  Its completely possible to be strong, intelligent and wise yet submissive and obedient.  A good example here is limits.  I once had a Domme that decided she wanted to push past my hard limits in the middle of a scene.  There I was tied up and blind folded in a public dungeon when she told me what she was about to do (and I do believe she was being serious).  Which was very clearly on my short list of hard limits.  Immediately my demeanor changed and I very fimrly reiterated that was a hard limit, we had negotiated that and she would NOT be doing that to me.  She was surprised, once she aquiesced (15-30 seconds) I went back into submissive head space (that took a few minutes) and things continued.  I would never address a Domme I was serving in that manner unless she was violating our agreemtn or doing something seriously wrong.  But submissive does not mean weak by any means.  I submit because I respect them and enjoy the power exchange, but because I'm not fully capable on my own.

quote:

Good submissives are kind and considerate. Some women just cannot enjoy sex with men who are nice to them and easily woo-ed. Only difficult, bad boys who play hard-to-get turn them on. Since submissives are usually respectful, they are not sexy. There is no thrill of the chase. A submissive who makes it politely clear he does not submit to just anyone can find an erstwhile celibate Domme will start flirting with him"

Damn.  You're right, I'm screwed.  Or rather, not.  As a male, when I'm not expressing my submissive side I have no problem whatever attracting women.  And from that point of view I understand this logic quite well.  Even though I hate and refuse to play games, I have honed certain mannerisms to account for this behavior in women.

Guess I had hoped that dominant women did not generally run by that logic as well.  I had sort of assumed that if a woman was naturally dominant and assertive they would probably not have this desire / need.  I associate the interest in bad boys, disrespectful men and the like with the more submissive side of women.  I did not figure that most dominant women would also be attracted by that.  Damn.  Damn.  Damn.  I do not know how to be both a good submissive and a disrespectful bad boy.  Not am I sure I'd want to if I could either.  Sigh.

quote:

I am a sexual Dominant. I need full control of who, how and when to get my rocks off.
I consider having sex with vanillas is vanilla and submitting to sex with Tops/Doms is submissive (what else could it be????). I am hardwired a Dominant, so I cannot enjoy shagging vanillas or Doms. I have tried, believe me!!!

Well its very good to know that women like you do actually exist.  Maybe its just my local community, but so many of the Dommes make it very clear up front that they do not have sex with submissives.  I do not demand nor expect sex, but knowing that there is absolutely no possibility of it bothers me.  Because I suspect its becuase they think lesser of submissive men and that just does not work for me.

(in reply to MsCfromMelbourne)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Why the strong penchant against sex? - 8/18/2008 11:12:15 AM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		To the op, you might want to establish a relationship before you get involved in things where you will feel used afterwards if you are used.  Know what you are getting into before you get into it.  Instead of explaining it to us or questioning it with us, do so with whoever you are involved with.  You have every right to post whatever and to ask things and to feel used or whatever, but you can hardly blame all femdom's for being the way you see them.  Some are like this; some are not.  It is your job to find that out before you are submissive to one if it is that important to you.

(in reply to Venatrix)
Profile   Post #: 20
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