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Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 11:28:29 AM

incantatrice

Posts: 38
Joined: 1/23/2008
Status: offline

BDSM in the modern era.
In this modern era we live in where most communication seems to be done via electronic means are we missing the good old traditions of BDSM and what was a select community of people who lived the lifestyle and only initiated the select few into their ranks? Or is the invention of the internet a godsend for those who are new and would never have dared to venture into what used to be such an underground environment?
There are arguments on both side of the fence, namely:-
Yes with the introduction of the internet everyone feels they have a right to join what was once a private area, but with the introduction of the new using the internet, they seem to forget about the old rules and codes which governed a lifestyle and kept it sane and safe.
With the introduction of the internet people can hide behind a keyboard, be nameless and they can lie, manipulate, pretend to be what they aren’t, be rude and obnoxious to people and think they can get away with all of this without any come back.
On the other side
With the introduction of the internet people now have access to a lifestyle they are drawn to because of who they are and they can find likeminded people to discuss their problems, feelings and emotions and never have to worry about people finding out who they are.
They can also make friends from across the world that will feel the same, help them with their thoughts and encourage each and everyone to move forward.
I personally come from the first point having been introduced to the lifestyle at a masked ball of lifestylers over 20 years ago, long before the internet was taking off. I found the lifestyle to be a place where a small select group came to enjoy themselves and express who they were without the prying eyes of the majority.
My slave came from the other side of the fence and was introduced to the lifestyle by finding sites from the internet which she sought herself. She then went onto to find an online community (some good some not so good) but she still has good words to say about the internet.
I have listened to her argument and can see that both side of the argument have some very valid points. Although it’s not perfect the lifestyle could be improved if both sides met in the middle only bringing the good points, however I feel that is still some way off.

Post #: 1

RE: Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 12:08:29 PM

DomDolf

Posts: 363
Joined: 7/11/2008
Status: offline

This may turn out to be a very interesting thread. I am likely to irritate some people with this response. Obviously it is not going to sway me from posting.

Good = The Internet has brought more people, which means more choices.
Bad = With more people comes less control of what is taught and how "the club" develops.

I would prefer "the club" was much smaller and more select. And yes, that is with a clear understanding of what the Internet brings to the table. Some of which I greatly appreciate. I will use all tools at my disposal, which includes the Internet. Used properly, the Internet is an excellent tool. Too many use it improperly, it is often a play ground for less than desirable people to say what they want, do what they want and call it what they want. Challenge their view and you must be prepared to catch holy hell from anyone that puts themselves in a category not fitting your definition and preferences. Therefore everything is acceptable.

quote:

Although it’s not perfect the lifestyle could be improved if both sides met in the middle only bringing the good points, however I feel that is still some way off.

I feel it is more than some way off. I feel it is near impossible as long as there is a come one, come all attitude and everyone is accepted. Some will say that I sound elitist. I am selective in everything in my life. I am not an overly tolerant person. Yes we exist, those that have open minds that recognize that it does not mean that you have to accept all things.

Dolf

< Message edited by DomDolf -- 8/19/2008 12:12:21 PM >

(in reply to incantatrice)

Post #: 2

RE: Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 12:16:16 PM

NeedingMore220

Posts: 615
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline

So the questions I have are ...

Who does the Internet 'allow into the club' that is not desired?

And if there is a club, who is the bouncer, deciding who gets in and who doesn't?

Who should be accepted, and what is this based on? Who gets to say?

I'm not irritated - merely curious, and more than a bit confused as to how this would all work.

Is there a vetting process for newbies?

I suppose I'm of the mind that there's someone for everyone ... and if the Internet helps them find their match, great. I guess the questions I have are also raised because I'm not involved in any real-life BDSM communities. I have private relationships, with Doms who have not been interested in munches or dungeons. So how does this all affect us? It doesn't, I suppose ...

(in reply to DomDolf)

Post #: 3

RE: Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 12:17:02 PM

CelticPrince

Posts: 3613
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomDolf

This may turn out to be a very interesting thread. I am likely to irritate some people with this response. Obviously it is not going to sway me from posting.

Good = The Internet has brought more people, which means more choices.
Bad = With more people comes less control of what is taught and how "the club" develops.

I would prefer "the club" was much smaller and more select. And yes, that is with a clear understanding of what the Internet brings to the table. Some of which I greatly appreciate. I will use all tools at my disposal, which includes the Internet. Used properly, the Internet is an excellent tool. Too many use it improperly, it is often a play ground for less than desirable people to say what they want, do what they want and call it what they want. Challenge their view and you must be prepared to catch holy hell from anyone that puts themselves in a category not fitting your definition and preferences. Therefore everything is acceptable.

quote:

Although it’s not perfect the lifestyle could be improved if both sides met in the middle only bringing the good points, however I feel that is still some way off.

I feel it is more than some way off. I feel it is near impossible as long as there is a come one, come all attitude and everyone is accepted. Some will say that I sound elitist. I am selective in everything in my life. I am not an overly tolerant person. Yes we exist, those that have open minds that recognize that it does not mean that you have to accept all things.

Dolf

Dolf,

Very well put.

CP

(in reply to DomDolf)

Post #: 4

RE: Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 12:19:47 PM

DomDolf

Posts: 363
Joined: 7/11/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedingMore220

I'm not irritated - merely curious, and more than a bit confused as to how this would all work.

Once you go so far there is no turning back.

Dolf

(in reply to NeedingMore220)

Post #: 5

RE: Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 12:24:27 PM

NeedingMore220

Posts: 615
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomDolf
Once you go so far there is no turning back.

Dolf

Sorry, I'm not understanding you.

(in reply to DomDolf)

Post #: 6

RE: Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 12:30:39 PM

DomDolf

Posts: 363
Joined: 7/11/2008
Status: offline

What is done cannot be undone.

Dolf

(in reply to NeedingMore220)

Post #: 7

RE: Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 12:34:46 PM

rookey

Posts: 100
Status: offline

Yes the Internet has done much to improve social access generally. It really has done much to bring people together. It has made the world smaller.

This is both good news and bad news.

It is good news for folks like me. I'm basically a shy and unadventurous sort of chap. Without sites like collarme and informedconsent.co.uk, I would not be making my first tentative steps into the world of BDSM. It has allowed to learn from the experience and wisdom of others. This site had given me hope, good advice, encouragement and opportunities. I thank you all.

It is generally good news for like-minded people who would never otherwise have the opportunity to meet. Allowing them to enrich one another lives. Not just in the BDSM arena, but others too.

The bad news is people are forever tripping over a never-ending stream of time-wasters and Walter Mitty's. Exhibit A the profiles of the frustrated Dommes on collarme, forever stating what is surely the obvious to wannabe subs.

_____________________________

(in reply to incantatrice)

Post #: 8

RE: Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 12:40:33 PM

daddysliloneds

Posts: 1351
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline

considering i've been doing this since i was a wee tyke and didn't even know it had a name, or the fact that it wasn't the way i was 'supposed' to be living according to anyone elses standards that i grew up with, then i'd have to say, the invention of the internet is a beautiful thing for those of us who don't want to remain stagnet, for those who are learning and those of us still learning, for those who don't consider themselves to be 'elitists', less than, better than, more special then, and all that good shit!

(in reply to incantatrice)

Post #: 9

RE: Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 12:44:13 PM

KneelforAnne

Posts: 1011
Joined: 6/14/2006
Status: offline

Hello,

Here is my view on the subject….

If it were not for the internet I would not be here, and I am glad for the opportunities and education it has offered me.

I agree that with the "open door" the internet brings to the situation “The Club” will have more posers and fakes, but I think one will have at least some of that everywhere. One, D or s, must exercise logic and actually think critically about things no matter what the mode of communication or subject.

Despite being new to the lifestyle, and being newly active on CM I feel that the education I have gotten here has been invaluable. There are some things that i don’t need to experience in real life to learn from. For instance, look at all of the postings and conversations on just the discussion boards…none of that information would be readily available without the internet.

Sure, if the net was not available then word of mouth, or literature would convey information..but how reliable is all of that? my argument is that is is just as reliable as the internet---which means take it all with a grain of salt and use some common sense.

If I had to choose between having this open invitation or having it closed and offered only to the select, I would say throw the doors open wide and send out invitations to the world. Think of all the good that could be missed! The trade off is that You have to wade through some not-so-desirables… but how is that different than anything life has to offer?

Respectfully,

~anne

< Message edited by KneelforAnne -- 8/19/2008 12:47:56 PM >

(in reply to DomDolf)

Post #: 10

RE: Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 12:45:39 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

Ah yes, the good ol days when women glowed and men thundered....

As near as I can tell, it's a fiction. There isn't now nor has there ever been a BDSM community. At best, there's been little pockets of people who, when they could manage it, hooked up with other people and formed some sort of hyper-local community which may or may not have been any good at all. The good old days never existed. There was never a time when training was better than now. In fact, it was arguably much much worse. In short, I pretty much disagree with the entire premise of this post. I started online, I am real life now. For the most part, I think that there are more similarities than differences for those who are actually exploring. And for those who are just playing around, in either venue, who cares? This post is yet another thinly veiled, old european, 12-circle, old school, old guard, god-knows-what-else post in my opinion.

I'll add one more point... in my viewing of what passes for a real life BDSM "community", for the most part, what I see (and hear from others) is a fractious lot, overwhelmed with politicial infighting and petty politics. Lines are draw everywhere... gays here, straights there, subs to the left, doms to the right, no not you fem dommes, you stand over there please. I think it'd have to improve several notches just to reach dysfunctional. Training, such as it is, appears to largely be a method of establishing credibility in order to score the hot young subs. Bluntly, amazon & google give me better access to viewpoints, materials and knowledge than anything I have seen "in the scene" and nobody wants to insert their body parts into my wife just to order a book from amazon.

(in reply to incantatrice)

Post #: 11

RE: Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 1:03:17 PM

Lockit

Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

Back in the 70's I got involved with the swingers. I knew nothing of bdsm and wouldn't have been interested at the time because I had preset idea's about dominance and how that played out in life. I saw mostly the abuse that dominance was connected with most often, in my experience. I did have a few female led relationships and a couple of men who were basically a male wife that took care of me while I supported us, but had little knowledge of kink.

I got very turned off to the swingers groups and nudist coloney's for a number of reasons and would not have accepted a lot of what I now accept if it hadn't been for the safety net of online information.

In ways I see this like an old bikers argument of 'you can't be a biker unless you're an outlaw' kind of thing. I knew outlaws that were hanger's on and nothing more. I saw the same thing in the swingers groups. If there is a 'we' aspect to all of this.. cool... but we have to take the good with the bad... the wankers... the perv's that are not complementary to anything or anyone and those we see as fake. I just live my life as I see fit and allow into it, who and what I want to be involved with and anyone who doesn't like it doesn't have to know me or me them.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 12

RE: Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 1:08:36 PM

FlamingRedhead

Posts: 451
Joined: 3/4/2007
From: Georgia
Status: offline

From what I've been able to gather, the only ones who had traditions were Leathermen. In order to join their club, you had to follow their rules. There was a dress code and a pecking order. Women were not allowed. Switches were considered second-class players. Bottoms were not allowed to own collars unless given to them by a top. Other tops did not address collared bottoms and vice versa. Tops had to prove their skill with successively complex scenes to earn their leather. Proper etiquette was a must. With lesbians and heteros clamoring to be included, things had to change.

I came by way of the Internet. If it wasn't for that, I don't know if I would've ever found my way into a dungeon. Daddy was involved before there was an Internet. While I appreciate the freedom of information, etc., I can also see where it has been detrimental. These days, anyone can pay for a dungeon/club membership, show up with a bag of toys, and claim to be anything they want. Dungeons/clubs open their doors to anyone for money, and they mix swingers with lifestylers as if swingers are supposed to understand and respect what it is we do.

Daddy says that in the days of the Sanctuary membership was by invitation only. Munches were used to determine who got invited. By showing genuine interest, you got access to people with knowledge. Yes, things were clique-ish. Protocol was strict. People got thrown out for being rude. However, you didn't have the weekend warriors and gawkers interrupting scenes, talking loudly, hitting on collared slaves, hitting on dominants, etc.

I just think it's sad that everyone wanted what the Leathermen had because they were organized, but once they got it, they promptly did away with everything they stood for. Is it any wonder that terminology has no meaning and collars fasten with velcro?

_____________________________

I'm so addicted to
All the things you do
When you're going down on me
In between the sheets
Or the sound you make
With every breath you take
It's unlike anything
When you're loving me

(in reply to incantatrice)

Post #: 13

RE: Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 1:09:49 PM

Prinsexx

Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

I don't think there is a dividing line between internet and life. I just think it's yet another wall inside the head.
Given the fact that when i order at tesco on line the real food seems to arrive at the door and that when i need to feel emotionally supported by a friend living two hundred miles or even two thousand miles away i can email them and exchange a communication about experience...i don't want that wall to come back. There are lots of dividing walls i don't want back in my head, having spent far too many years chipping away at them.
As for the good old traditions of bdsm? This is like saying oh i miss the good old days.....wake up and stoke the fire....

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to incantatrice)

Post #: 14

RE: Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 1:30:11 PM

Abaddon2u

Posts: 49
Joined: 8/12/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

I don't think there is a dividing line between internet and life. I just think it's yet another wall inside the head.
Given the fact that when i order at tesco on line the real food seems to arrive at the door and that when i need to feel emotionally supported by a friend living two hundred miles or even two thousand miles away i can email them and exchange a communication about experience...i don't want that wall to come back. There are lots of dividing walls i don't want back in my head, having spent far too many years chipping away at them.
As for the good old traditions of bdsm? This is like saying oh i miss the good old days.....wake up and stoke the fire....

And here I thought these are the good old days.

The internet is just a tool like any other, inherently benign, it is the use it is put to that counts.

Abaddon,

“The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad.” - Salvador Dali

(in reply to Prinsexx)

Post #: 15

RE: Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 1:35:28 PM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline

I never did the protocal stuff nor do I see this as a lifestyle, in my world it is just life. It is how I interact with some people. I don't sir, maam, master, people simply because they are "lifestyle" For me, lifestyle is a role you play in the game of life.
I do agree the internet has colored the way people see and do things.

kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: incantatrice

With the introduction of the internet people now have access to a lifestyle

(in reply to incantatrice)

Post #: 16

RE: Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 1:37:41 PM

peppermint

Posts: 5169
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline

While reading your note I was wondering how the Old Guard felt about the changes that had already been brought to their club 20 years ago when you were introduced to it. Did they lament heterosexuals and lesbians joining the club? Did they worry about the lack of protocol that they had developed such as that all newbies started out as submissives? Did they look down at newbies and consider newbies lacking what it really takes to be part of the club?

Nothing is static. Change is constant. The internet has brought faster changes than the club had seen before. Is that bad? I don't think so as long as change is tempered with the common sense we are all born with. Who would choose those who are let into the club if it were elitist? Would someone magnanimously allow people into the club with opposing views because they are a breath of fresh air...new and improved?

The internet is merely a tool that is now part of our lives. Just as we are exposed to new ideas and new cultures via the net, the net has allowed what was once a secret life to be viewed by others. Some are attracted to that secret life and wish for the experience. Many use the internet as a way to taste what it might be like. I did it for several years and have no regrets at all. In fact i personally feel it was a much better introduction that i could have gotten in any other way. It was a great learning experience i would not have had without access to the internet.

Is there a middle ground to be found? I'm not certain. There will always be those who would prefer to limit others' access to ideas that they have had the priviledge to know about...keeping those ideas more special. They would not have others corrupt what they deem their own private club. On the other hand, there will always be those who come to the internet and demean what others hold dear.

The only constant in all this is that there is no way to stop the changes that are occuring, the ideas that are being shared. The internet is here and ideas have been spread around the world. For better or worse...we are stuck with the results.

(in reply to incantatrice)

Post #: 17

RE: Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 1:55:07 PM

DomDolf

Posts: 363
Joined: 7/11/2008
Status: offline

Leadership,

Training was not mentioned. Yes, there were/are groups that were/are miserable groups of politics and BS. There are also very selective groups with very healthy boundaries. These groups, all small, are very informative and use the topics raised here and other places on the Internet to provide food for thought. These groups enjoy this aspect of the Internet. These groups aren't very well known. They choose anonymity even within the public BDSM world because they do not want to be bugged by everyone that thinks they are PERFECT for the group when their actions, reactions, words, body language, intellect, attitude and ability to not gossip is/has been evaluated. If the group is known, the members known, they become targets of those accusing them of being elitists. And rest assured the havoc that someone angered by not being accepted can create for a person is not limited by much.

Some people claiming to being around since the "good ol' days" have been around for a few years in reality and SOME of them are living the lifestyle now. They lied about their initial level of experience and aren't backing down from the lie. The longer their lies survive the more confused people become when the liars say something "was a certain way". I will tell you this, those that know better just shut up and grin while thinking "LIAR".

I'm not sure if I was included in your comment about hot young submissives, but to clarify, getting some "hot young" submissive is worthless to me. She would need to be intelligent, a lady, have a great attitude about life, desire complete control, be in control and have made great choices in her life. She must be old enough to have experienced certain things, many things that I feel are important in the psychological and social development of her personality. I have had two submissives younger than me, younger by no more than three years, the rest have been older.

I am grateful that there are many people that eventually will be filtered through all the online BS and emerge very capable dominants and submissives.

Dolf

(in reply to peppermint)

Post #: 18

RE: Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 2:19:54 PM

incantatrice

Posts: 38
Joined: 1/23/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Ah yes, the good ol days when women glowed and men thundered....

As near as I can tell, it's a fiction. There isn't now nor has there ever been a BDSM community. At best, there's been little pockets of people who, when they could manage it, hooked up with other people and formed some sort of hyper-local community which may or may not have been any good at all. The good old days never existed. There was never a time when training was better than now. In fact, it was arguably much much worse. In short, I pretty much disagree with the entire premise of this post. I started online, I am real life now. For the most part, I think that there are more similarities than differences for those who are actually exploring. And for those who are just playing around, in either venue, who cares? This post is yet another thinly veiled, old european, 12-circle, old school, old guard, god-knows-what-else post in my opinion.

It’s not very often that my blood boils but here it is, I feel the rant from hell coming on, and I will try not to make this personal, but what a complete load of horse ****.

I was introduced into the lifestyle by a great group of people in the mid 80's, they were not a local community, people used to travel from as far as southern Europe to come to events. The events were well organised and it was a safe and sane environment for all invited, but it was just that for the people 'invited', not people who had stumbled across it on the internet, not people with no or very little knowledge and not for people with any preconceptions.
The lifestyle in " THE GOOD OLD DAYS " was full of manners and respect because you were talking to people face to face. A lack of manners made sure you were ostracised by the people from the community.
I went to many masked balls and other such balls, where the lifestyle was in full flow with people who lived it, and fun and enjoyment was had by all because there were no pretenders, liars, fakers, wannabes or any other thing the internet has introduced to this lifestyle.

" THE GOOD OLD DAYS " were just that, and with the invention of the internet the lifestyle was opened up to far to 'many' of the above named people. The 'many' are people who have no idea what the lifestyles moral and values mean, and what they can offer.

For the people out there who know they are different, but do not yet know why, I welcome the internet but only if they listen to the right people as there is a wealth of information to be gleaned out here. For those who are just rude and talk about the lifestyle which they had no knowledge, like it’s their preferred choice on 'mastermind' I say wind your neck in!

I am glad the discussion is going in the right way in the main and hopefully with healthy discussion we can educate the new.
Master Gio xx

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 19

RE: Real life vs internet. - 8/19/2008 2:21:12 PM

Prinsexx

Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abaddon2u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

I don't think there is a dividing line between internet and life. I just think it's yet another wall inside the head.
Given the fact that when i order at tesco on line the real food seems to arrive at the door and that when i need to feel emotionally supported by a friend living two hundred miles or even two thousand miles away i can email them and exchange a communication about experience...i don't want that wall to come back. There are lots of dividing walls i don't want back in my head, having spent far too many years chipping away at them.
As for the good old traditions of bdsm? This is like saying oh i miss the good old days.....wake up and stoke the fire....

And here I thought these are the good old days.

The internet is just a tool like any other, inherently benign, it is the use it is put to that counts.

Abaddon,

“The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad.” - Salvador Dali

You're right...these are the good old days. some slaves are like fine wines....the longer you keep them kegged the better they taste (so i've been told).

.

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 8/19/2008 2:22:28 PM >

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to Abaddon2u)

Post #: 20

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