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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/1/2004 4:07:44 PM   
darkinshadows


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oh yes... and humans (because we are so great of course and rule above all other species and love each other so wonderfully)...

humans are the only species who actively hunt and destroy other 'species'... even when we have such...*commen sense*... and know when a species are near extinction... unlike lesser animals who of course... are vicious and nasty and hunt because of food and protection.

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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/1/2004 5:50:56 PM   
stef


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Status: offline 		Before we start congratulating ourselves (as a species) on our compassion and altruism, maybe we need to keep a few things in mind. We are the only species that has ever dared to assume that the earth was made for *us*. When the primary method of subsistance as hunter/gatherers started shifting to totalitarian agriculture we started killing this planet. A feat no other species ever even dreamed, or was even capable, of.

Every living creature on this planet is a part of the Community of Life. This community existed long before we darkened the Earth's door with our evolved presence and it functioned perfectly well for many thousands of years without our guiding hand on the tiller. The community was goverened by a law which Daniel Quinn refers to as the 'Law of Limited Competition', or the 'Law of Life'. The Readers' Digest version of this law states "you may compete to the full extent of your capabilities, but you may not hunt down competitors or destroy their food or deny them access to food. In other words, you may compete but you may not wage war."

Guess how many species don't adhere to this law? I'll give you a hint, you can count them on one finger.

How can we even begin to delude ourselves by claiming nobility and superiority over animals when we are the ones that will be responsible for the death of all animals, including ourselves, unless things change in a damn hurry? I'm just not seeing it.

< Message edited by sfgrrl -- 8/1/2004 8:00:49 PM >

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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/1/2004 9:25:44 PM   
Estring


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Status: offline 		There is a big difference between instinct and kindness. Animals behave through instinct. Let's see how an elephant would treat you if you were sick and walked into their herd.

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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/1/2004 9:30:39 PM   
Estring


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Status: offline 		It's thinking like this that leads to equating barbequeing chickens and The Holocaust as equal occurences. Ingrid Newkirk from PETA would have you believe that there is no difference. The fact is, we are superior to animals. That some of us don't behave that way doesn't change that.

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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/1/2004 9:59:36 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

It's thinking like this that leads to equating barbequeing chickens and The Holocaust as equal occurences.

Excuse me??!?

The Holocaust was arguably the most horrific event to take place in modern history. Chicken BBQ is dinner. I fail to see how *anyone* with even the most tenuous foothold in reality could *ever* equate the two.

Perhaps your above statement would be less bewildering if you would take the time to you explain what you mean by "thinking like this?"

quote:

Ingrid Newkirk from PETA would have you believe that there is no difference.

What Ingrid Newkirk would attempt to have me believe is meaningless. I don't ascribe to her views .

quote:

The fact is, we are superior to animals. That some of us don't behave that way doesn't change that.

We are superior in some ways, to be sure, yet we are woefully inferior in others.

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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/1/2004 10:14:18 PM   
Estring


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Status: offline 		The thinking I am referring to is that humans and animals are equal. She has just taken your thinking to its extreme. I never said you felt as she does. I said that type of thinking leads to this extreme. I am glad you don't feel as she does.
And I would be curious to know in what ways we are inferior to animals.

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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/1/2004 10:20:51 PM   
proudsub


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quote:

And I would be curious to know in what ways we are inferior to animals.


Many of our senses are inferior to animals. It may be different for different species. For example dogs and cats can smell and hear much better than man. Many animals can see better, especially at night. Is that what you meant Esting?

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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/2/2004 6:43:27 AM   
darkinshadows


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If the end of the world came and it was between you and your family... and another family who You knew nothing about... and it came down to feeding your child, or the others child... wondering which one you would pick?...(and no, theres isnt the option of sharing...)... life or death situations... instinct kicks in. Survival of the fittest an all that.

And anyway... there is plenty of evidence to suggest that animals open their enviroments to others. Elephants in particular will take in injured elephants from outside thier group.. and other animals have been documented in protecting other species. Maybe if they hadnt been attacked by man so much, they might actually trust them a hell of alot more? They are acting on the instincts passed down to them through the centuries from matriaches and Bulls...

Just take the example of the child that fell into that goilla enclosure.(Just using that because its something that most people have heard about or read the documentation.) That gorilla looked at the child... saw it was injured and purposefully kept the other gorillas away from the area and left when the keepers came to collect the child. That isnt just instinct... thats logical assessments.

Chimps regularly use herbs and plants to treat their own and the sick outside their own groups.

And dolphins have been documented in saving people who have fallen overboard.

Animals kill for food... occasionally they kill to wipe out a neighbouring community...(like humans)... but the difference between animals and humans is that humans abuse their'position'... Lions dont know that cheetahs are nearing extinction, they attack and kill because they protect their own and want the food for their communites... their cubs... humans kill cheetahs for the skins coz it looks good... go figure?

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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/2/2004 6:58:24 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

It's thinking like this that leads to equating barbequeing chickens and The Holocaust as equal occurences. Ingrid Newkirk from PETA would have you believe that there is no difference. The fact is, we are superior to animals. That some of us don't behave that way doesn't change that.


The holocaust was one of the most horrendus acts in History. It was well planned and calculated and nothing more than a selfish humans rights violation.

barbecueing chickens for food is yummy to some people(begs humble apology to vegans)... its not something we have to do to survive... but it is (possible) to understand. Barbecuing chikens because its fun?... because its something to do?... is both nausiating and unbelievably selfish, self-righteous and an animal rights issue. It is also a human rights issue. What happens if chickens became extinct? Starvation for some. It isnt whether somethings 'right or wrong'... its looking into the future and seeing the possible outcome.

Humans arent superior. We have different skills... and according to Yourself, we have more than just instinct, we have kindness... doesnt that just make things worse?

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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/2/2004 7:11:56 AM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

The thinking I am referring to is that humans and animals are equal.

Equal in which regard? Are they our intellectual equals? Clearly not. Are they our equals in violence against their own species? Again, clearly not. There's all kinds of 'equal'.

The one place where we are equal is in our responsibility to maintain the equilibrium that fosters life on this planet. Sadly, our intelligence has allowed us to find ways to live outside of a fashion that would enable us to do our part in maintaining that equilibrium. Think of it as a tire that needs balancing. At first, our species provided just the right amount of weight for the tire to spin without any wobble. Over time, we have been adding more and more weight to our spot on the tire's rim and sooner or later, that tire is going to fly off because it's so out of balance.

quote:

She has just taken your thinking to its extreme. I never said you felt as she does. I said that type of thinking leads to this extreme. I am glad you don't feel as she does.
I'm not sure where her thinking comes from, but I don't believe that PETA shares many of my ideals. I'm a firm believer of the saying "If we weren't supposed to eat animals, then why do they taste so good!"

quote:

And I would be curious to know in what ways we are inferior to animals.

Animals won't be responsible for the destruction of this planet, we will.

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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/2/2004 7:22:17 AM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

occasionally they kill to wipe out a neighbouring community...(like humans)...

Do you know of any specific instances of such animal behavior? I have been looking for a while and keep coming up empty handed.

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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/2/2004 7:38:43 AM   
basiasubrosa


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Status: offline 		First, i'd like to pay respects to the people who have really wowed me with their biological knowledge— <wide-eyed> wow.

I do think that Estring made a very important and valid comment about the danger of idealizing “nature” or "wildlife". It is, to be sure, a brutal and violent world, that is often romanticized by misanthropes or people who simply do not know better, which can be highly disturbing when taken to extremes. (E.g. displacing already struggling indigenous people with too scanty compensation to establish exclusive research-only parklands.)

However i would also be wary of broad declarations of superiority. For one thing, our knowledge of other species is still too limited to say for sure how much they feel or think. We may never know. On our part, for better and for worse, H. sapiens has been endowed with a remarkable ability to act with extreme generosity and extreme cruelty, and everything in between. All taken together, it may be difficult to assess how much net good we come out to so far. All the more reason to use our powers and try harder to protect and care for each other both within and beyond our species. As TS Elliot (yes, yes, of questionable politics, i know....) wrote, “For us there is only the trying, the rest is not our business.” Or so i believe.

Side note: sfgrrl, i miss your old avatar already.

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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/2/2004 8:06:45 AM   
Leonidas


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Status: offline 		Chimps wage war. They raid neighboring groups, kill males, and lead their females away. Cheetahs are known to attack and kill other Cheetahs that are infringing on their hunting grounds. There are many other examples.

What separates humans from other species in this regard is that we can kill people we have never seen. There was a time when, to kill a man, you had to face him and look him in the eye. Not so anymore. It can be done from 30,000 feet, or even from another continent. It gets easier at a distance, and easier to justify in the minds of many. Especially those who spent war years defending Texas from Oklahoma, and have never actually seen men die.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/2/2004 8:29:24 AM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: basiasubrosa
Side note: sfgrrl, i miss your old avatar already.

I'm just playing avatar roulette. It'll be back

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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/2/2004 9:00:07 AM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

Chimps wage war. They raid neighboring groups, kill males, and lead their females away.

Yes indeed. Some chimps do take part in raiding parties, but it's not to exterminate the other community.

quote:

Cheetahs are known to attack and kill other Cheetahs that are infringing on their hunting grounds.

All predators will attack 'competitors' that threaten their ability to feed themselves and their own. This isn't exactly news.

quote:

There are many other examples.

I'm still wating for an example of an animal that wages genocide. Aside from us, I mean.

quote:

What separates humans from other species in this regard is that we can kill people we have never seen. There was a time when, to kill a man, you had to face him and look him in the eye. Not so anymore. It can be done from 30,000 feet, or even from another continent. It gets easier at a distance, and easier to justify in the minds of many. Especially those who spent war years defending Texas from Oklahoma, and have never actually seen men die.

While this is true, I'm failing to see it's relevance to the rest of the discussion.

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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/2/2004 9:15:05 AM   
darkinshadows


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Hi sfgrrl...

demonicapetrans

I hope this is what You are looking for? Its only about chimps... but there are others on lions, cheetahs etc... and there are lots on animals killing same species youngsters... usually so that their own are survivors... theres a few tit for tat killings also.

quote:


quote:basiasubrosa

I do think that Estring made a very important and valid comment about the danger of idealizing “nature” or "wildlife".


I totally agree. Its not about nature being romantic or better than humans....Its not the ideal. But it is nature, and we should never feel superior to it... but be humbled at its abilities.


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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/2/2004 9:25:38 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfgrrl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

Chimps wage war. They raid neighboring groups, kill males, and lead their females away.

Yes indeed. Some chimps do take part in raiding parties, but it's not to exterminate the other community.



Its been documented that chimps will and do use raiding parties to either rob and pilage another chimp community... or completely murder them. They will even commit rape. And not just because they are protecting their own... but coz they can... they will even wipe out another species of animal.

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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/2/2004 9:49:20 AM   
Leonidas


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quote:

Yes indeed. Some chimps do take part in raiding parties, but it's not to exterminate the other community.


Extermination is almost never the objective of human wars either. We wage war to subdue, subjugate, or lay claim to resources. As a philosopher once said, it is the continuation of politics by other means. If you think that war and genocide are the same thing, you need to disabuse yourself of that notion, because as a result, you'll abhor one too much, and the other too little.

quote:

All predators will attack 'competitors' that threaten their ability to feed themselves and their own. This isn't exactly news.


This is the motivation of most humans who have waged war throughout history. What humans posess that other animals do not is the ability to imagine these threats, even when they are not real.

quote:

I'm still wating for an example of an animal that wages genocide. Aside from us, I mean.


You may have to wait until other species develop tools sophisticated enough to make it easy. Means and motivation are not the same thing. If chimps learned how to use guns and fragmentation grenades, who is to say what they would do.

quote:

While this is true, I'm failing to see it's relevance to the rest of the discussion.


See my comment directly above. Means and motivation aren't the same thing. If we still had to use a rock to accomplish it, I doubt we'd be engaging in much genocide either. It would be too damn much work, and we wouldn't have the leisure time to conjure up rationales for it. Before Europeans arrived, the natives on this continent did pretty much what chimps do. They raided each other's villages, killed men, took provisions and women, and chased each other off their hunting grounds. They didn't have the means to kill in mass, though they might have done so if they had. They were too busy with the business of their own survival to contemplate how cool it would be to exterminate their neighbors.

You are engaging in some self-loathing of your species here that is, in itself, an indication that you have too much time on your hands. You are a member of a magnificent species. Pugnacious and agressive, to be sure, but no more so than many others. We are no more or less ignoble at our worst than many of the animal species that you seem to be holding up as examples of virtue, we just have superior means to express our ignobility when the notion strikes us.

Take care of yourself.

Leonidas

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 8/2/2004 9:51:31 AM >

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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/2/2004 10:31:53 AM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
Its been documented that chimps will and do use raiding parties to either rob and pilage another chimp community...

Didn't I just say that?

quote:

or completely murder them.

The only period of observed chimpanzee activity where violence like this occured was when Dr. Jane Goodall was at Gombe Stream in the 60's-70's. During part of that time (74-77) there was an event called 'The 4 Year War at Gombe.' Ten adult members (plus offspring) of the group she was studying split off to form a smaller community to the south of the main community. Whenever males of the splinter group met males of the main group, there was fierce fighting. Since the Gombe park was only 20 square miles, there was frequent contact and over the 4 year period, the splinter group was killed off. If the groups were not fenced in and were allowed to distance themselves from each other, would this have happened? Who can say.

Murder itself, is not at all uncommon in animals, and especially in the primate community. There are even instances of observed cannibalism. A mother/daughter pair in the Gombe park were responsible for killing and eating infant chimpanzees of other adult females.

We share over 98% of our genetic makeup with chimpanzees. Is it any wonder they display the same troubling traits we show from time to time?

quote:

they will even wipe out another species of animal.

I'm not aware of this ever occuring. Can you provide any substantiation?

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RE: BDSM and Natural Man - 8/2/2004 11:24:05 AM   
Sundew02


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Status: offline 		Getting back to part of the original post. Not that I haven't enjoy the information and discussion about animals of every variety. I agree we spend way too much time indoors or in protected vehicles. I greatly enjoy camping, fishing, swimming, doing my own yard work etc. But I feel that we have evolved and been introduced to way too many luxuries to ever go back there for good. Like this thing I am typing on. It would not last long in an unairconditioned environment. I don't believe I would ever become accustomed to limiting my access to others again. And seeing the harmful results to the human body of being a weekend warrior tends to give me pause as to just how much we have lost in the way of body stamina and muscle tone. But then my dream house for years has been a cabin in the heart of the Ozarks, with NO TV's. laughing, ah the confused human mind. Sundew

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