RE: Hmmmm

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catize -> RE: Hmmmm (8/26/2008 5:08:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: masterforRT When I basically said the same thing a few weeks ago---I was treated uncivilly here! The post was about how Doms should be respected for their position even though you might not respect them as persons. Pot calling the kettle black, perhaps? I don't know...but he must have been thinking of THIS place when he wrote this. Can this be turned around? I don't know....but a good start would be less nastiness in these very forums! It seems you equate disagreement with your opinion as rudeness. From Master Skip’s speech: “Being civil does not mean that we must like everyone in the community, nor does it mean that we cannot strongly disagree with those who hold opinions different from our own. We can.”

Missokyst -> RE: Hmmmm (8/26/2008 5:22:08 AM)
Perhaps you should reread: [Okay, with that as a preamble, let’s take a look at the problems being caused by the unchecked incivility that’s occurring in our community. Now, I’m using the rather genteel word “incivility” as a catchall for a whole host of hurtful and hateful behaviors that I’ve personally experienced or witnessed, or about which I’ve heard reliable reports: aggression; arrogance; backstabbing; bickering; bullying; cattiness; coercion; condescension; contemptuousness; cruelty (the bad kind); discourteousness; discrimination; disrespect; a sorry lack of empathy; an appalling sense of entitlement; exploitation; feuding; gossip; ingratitude; insensitivity; judgmentalness; libel; maliciousness; manipulation; meanness; persecution; power grabs and power struggles; rampant rumormongering; rudeness; scapegoating; schadenfreude (which means “taking delight in the misfortune of others”), selfishness; slander; tribalism (meaning clique politics); unkindness; victimization; vilification; and every kind of fill-in-the-blank-phobia you can shake a fist at.] Though I refrained from making a comment to you at the time, I will now. You were treated uncivilly because you lost control and attacked me. You decided to take offense at my comment about not everyone who claims to be a master, is a master and use my profile to dismiss the idea. Your sort chooses to put a title upon yourself and demand that everyone follow protocal. There is no validation on a title with no substance. I can call myself Princess and it does not make me one. Merc is beths master, not mine. But I have more respect for his words than I could ever have for someone who stomps around demanding respect because he says he is a master. Pot meet kettle. Kyst .. (who does not uncap my words, believes that the noun I means thoughts or words from my mouth or fingers, and will not use third person speak to make some little gentleman feel better about themselves.) quote: ORIGINAL: masterforRT When I basically said the same thing a few weeks ago---I was treated uncivilly here! but a good start would be less nastiness in these very forums!

Mercnbeth -> RE: "The Rise & Fall of the M/s Community: A Cautionary Observation" (8/26/2008 6:18:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer LOLLLLLL Know that the idea that Master Skip is somehow narcissistic because he has the honorific before his name is beyond silly to anyone who actually knows the man. If someone knows Master Skip Casey for any length of time they know that he resisted the honorific for many years telling folks he didn't deserve the honorific. He finally relented after many years coming to grips with the idea of receiving the honorific graciously from those who bear him great respect. A man who struggles with it and then learns to graciously accept the heartfelt respect of his community is hardly narcissism. Calling a man to task over something you don't know about the man is far closer to incivility than graciously after years accepting an honorific ever could be. Archer, Never realized it before you pointed it out, but Master Skip is the only person in the lifestyle that I wouldn't think to refer to as anything else but 'Master' Skip. He is a man at peace with himself with intimate knowledge of who he is. Yet he would say he is NOT a role model or 'ideal'. He is a Master. It isn't narcissistic. He is very humble and soft spoken and an inspirational speaker. We try to attend anything he or any of his family present. It was disappointing to find out he won't be speaking at this years Folsom Fringe.

KnightofMists -> RE: Hmmmm (8/26/2008 6:31:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: masterforRT The post was about how Doms should be respected for their position even though you might not respect them as persons. It always amazes me how people read into the comments and ideas of other their own agendas and opinions. Never actually hearing or listening to what the other person actually said. I suggest you actually read what Master Skip had to say... for the post was nothing about DOMS should be respected because of their postion. It is more about the people that are in the M/s Community and the path he sees the community on than what you are suggesting. In fact... I suspect he would find your comments very troubling. I wonder if you even know or met Master Skip. For those that have... I must say... I suspect reading the address will influence how you actually read and hear the what he had to say. Master Skip is not a large man... in fact he is of a small stature to most. I have seldom seen a man that is more gentle and humble in his mannerism. There is a comfortable feeling in being around such a person who doesn't in my expeience exhibit aggressiveness in overt or subtle ways. However, don't confuse his gentle and humble mannerism with a lack of confidence or strength of character. I dare say it is his confidence and awareness of who he is that gives him the power to be so gentle and humble in his mannerism. This man is not a bible thumper type of speaker and him delivering the address would of been soft and quiet. Due to his lack of aggression by nature, I suspect a person would of been able to easily read his emotional sincerity to what he was speaking on as well as the pain and fear that this issue brings to him. As powerful as the words of his address was.. I can only image that the emotions that would of come from him would of been equally powerful and captivitng to the listening audience.

LaTigresse -> RE: "The Rise & Fall of the M/s Community: A Cautionary Observation" (8/26/2008 7:20:25 AM)
An excellent article Merc, thank you for sharing. To be honest I don't see this behaviour as a plague on M/s persay, but a condition of humanity, specifically the USA, now. It is reflected in business interactions, how people treat one another while driving, shopping, or even children in school. We've lost the art of manners and courtesy. We like to think we are better than others........look at our world politics. Look at the debates on religioun or politics here. Everyone places themself on a pedestal. If others don't behave the same as they do they are rediculed and usually abused in some way, usually with words but sometimes physically also. Sadly, as shown in this thread, the worst culprits are usually blind to their own behaviour and are quick to say "SEE!!! I told you!" Always blaming someone else for their own faults. There is a regular poster on the forums, though I've not seen her much lately, LadyHugs that has been such an inspiration to me personally with regards to this issue. I have never once seen her stoop to the level of arguing and nastiness that most of the rest of us seem to slide into with ease. Regardless of the attacks I've seen her receive she usually handles it with such grace that makes the attacker look like a blithering fool. Between shining examples like LH and the occasional love note from Madame Eleven, I've been working really hard to behave a little more like a civil grownup and a little less like a snarky little twit. As far as a "cure" for the problem. I like to think that emulating Lady Hugs and providing an example is perhaps the best path. It has become quite apparent that the worst perpetrators will deny till they are blue in the face if accused.

leadership527 -> RE: "The Rise & Fall of the M/s Community: A Cautionary Observation" (8/26/2008 8:23:54 AM)
OK, am I the only one who finds the whole thing... odd? For the record, I don't know how many newcomers I've seen come here and point out the same things that the author wrote and have gotten boo'd down vigorously. So now, a veteran in some "community" is concerned that the community members aren't playing nice. Not that I don't agree with him, but is this a news flash? In general, those who self-identify as "alternative" in some way tend to be by their very natures not exactly "let's play nice" sort of people. These are not the leaves in the water floating downstream. For better and worse, what you have is a bunch of rugged individualists more akin to a herd of cats than a pack of wolves. Nor do I think that there is anything attacking this communty or anything that needs to be "banded against". BDSM is already going mainstream (uh oh, run for cover all you alternative people, the suburbanites are comming to get ya). In fact, Micheal tells me that there has always been a fairly large contingent that never participated in "the scene" at all because, frankly, it didn't offer them anything. So I'm not particularly worried that anything is threatening a community that I think barely exists and numerically represents only a tiny fraction of the actual iceberg. Yes, the regulars and old timers are pretty nasty in the BDSM world. Yes, the newcomers learn that such nastiness is how role models behave and so propogate it. This is not even remotely close to the worst institutionalized behavior I've observed. The community as a whole accepts this which is, afterall, how community standards are set. All of that still sounds to me like taking 9 pages to say "the sun's gonna come up tomorrow".

MadRabbit -> RE: "The Rise & Fall of the M/s Community: A Cautionary Observation" (8/26/2008 8:38:04 AM)
I'm really the cynic when it comes to large social groups which is why I prefer one-on-one friendships in my personal life. To me, this kind of thing is just a byproduct of the human condition and can't be remedied. It is, at the very least, in our nature to divide up into little groups and fued with each other. The thing that I find very sad about such an article is not that it will be taken negatively or not received at all, but it will be received in a positive way! People will read it and applaud it, say "Things need to change!", and cast an eye downwards to all "those" people who are breeding incivility, when most likely, their own behaviors contribute to the issue. We like to fall prey to the delusion that our actions are above right and wrong. Personally, I know I can get caught up in the bullshit that is churned by social group dynamic interaction, more so on the Internet, and sadly in my realtime life as well.

yourMissTress -> RE: "The Rise & Fall of the M/s Community: A Cautionary Observation" (8/26/2008 9:00:06 AM)
Thanks for the link, Merc. Looong read, but worth it. These are typically the reasons that I come and go in the local community. The cliques, the drama, the "holier than thou" types that think that their kink is the only acceptable kink and are vocal about it. The people who become the "community cryers" shouting every he said she said that they heard 5th hand, the "community police" who interfere in the relationships of others. When it gets to be too much, I'm out for a while. I have just as much or more fun playing at home, and I can socialize anywhere, I don't have to go to the local dungeon to do it. I think that Master Skip was spot on with his assessment that these things were a result of narcissism and low self esteem. The people who are meddling in the affairs of others are usually unhappy in their own relationships. The need to pull others down into their own misery over powers any social graces they may have had. Those with the large ego/small self esteem issues evidence themselves by snickering or laughing at a scene, jumping up just after or sometimes in the middle of a scene to offer some "kind words of advice" which is a thinly veiled "Sorry you don't know how to use that correctly" whether it be an instrument or a person they are referring to. Unfortunately, as has already been voiced in this thread, the people who need to read it, who would hopefully learn something from it, will never admit to themselves that they are the perpetrators of such.

LaTigresse -> RE: "The Rise & Fall of the M/s Community: A Cautionary Observation" (8/26/2008 9:01:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 OK, am I the only one who finds the whole thing... odd? For the record, I don't know how many newcomers I've seen come here and point out the same things that the author wrote and have gotten boo'd down vigorously. So now, a veteran in some "community" is concerned that the community members aren't playing nice. Not that I don't agree with him, but is this a news flash? In general, those who self-identify as "alternative" in some way tend to be by their very natures not exactly "let's play nice" sort of people. These are not the leaves in the water floating downstream. For better and worse, what you have is a bunch of rugged individualists more akin to a herd of cats than a pack of wolves. Nor do I think that there is anything attacking this communty or anything that needs to be "banded against". BDSM is already going mainstream (uh oh, run for cover all you alternative people, the suburbanites are comming to get ya). In fact, Micheal tells me that there has always been a fairly large contingent that never participated in "the scene" at all because, frankly, it didn't offer them anything. So I'm not particularly worried that anything is threatening a community that I think barely exists and numerically represents only a tiny fraction of the actual iceberg. Yes, the regulars and old timers are pretty nasty in the BDSM world. Yes, the newcomers learn that such nastiness is how role models behave and so propogate it. This is not even remotely close to the worst institutionalized behavior I've observed. The community as a whole accepts this which is, afterall, how community standards are set. All of that still sounds to me like taking 9 pages to say "the sun's gonna come up tomorrow". Well, when you word it this way.............. it just brings out the snarky bitch in me. See how this works! Resident Perp.

yourMissTress -> RE: Hmmmm (8/26/2008 9:03:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: masterforRT When I basically said the same thing a few weeks ago---I was treated uncivilly here! The post was about how Doms should be respected for their position even though you might not respect them as persons. Pot calling the kettle black, perhaps? I don't know...but he must have been thinking of THIS place when he wrote this. Can this be turned around? I don't know....but a good start would be less nastiness in these very forums! Hmm, people should be respected for a title that they give themselves? Really? are you sure? OK!!! I declare myself Queen of the Universe!!! You may all genuflect now.

LaTigresse -> RE: Hmmmm (8/26/2008 9:08:13 AM)
HEY!!!!!!!! That's MY Title!! Although I think I added something. QueenoftheFuckingUniverse.

LotusSong -> RE: "The Rise & Fall of the M/s Community: A Cautionary Observation" (8/26/2008 9:10:32 AM)
To paraphrase Charlton Heston's line in Soilent Green as he frustratingly yells "It's PEOPLE! "the demise of groups" is made "of" PEOPLE". Bless his heart. His idealism is heat-rendering but it's all been said before and no one listens because.. well.. they're people. I found it a bit "fluffy". (My apologies Merc. ) But not to worry. I'm one of those who have gone underground to my own kind.

tasha_tart -> RE: "The Rise & Fall of the M/s Community: A Cautionary Observation" (8/26/2008 9:57:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catize Show me an organization, an agency, a group that did not have rude, uncivil, back stabbing members. It is a powerful speech, perhaps a necessary warning, but my cynical bent leads me to believe he is ‘preaching to the choir’ and the folks it is intended for do not have ears to hear it. You've got that right. I see it at work, amongst the amorphous trans community, in pretty much any gathering of more than three people. I saw it when I was a Lions Club member; hell I remember it from my Boy Scout days. It was certainly present in high school. Unless it is just me (I do seem to be the common element here and I know I'm far from blameless) I'd say it's just part of the human condition...to be decried, resisted, but ultimately only to be contained, not eliminated. I don't think it is more prevalent in the kink (if I may use an awkward catch-all word) community than it is anywhere else. I think it may appear so because it is a more concentrated community; things tend to get around faster. Tasha

Mercnbeth -> RE: "The Rise & Fall of the M/s Community: A Cautionary Observation" (8/26/2008 9:59:00 AM)
quote: People will read it and applaud it, say "Things need to change!", and cast an eye downwards to all "those" people who are breeding incivility, when most likely, their own behaviors contribute to the issue. MR, I hope that isn't the case. I don't believe that Master Skip's goal was for people to applaud and say "Things need to change!". Things no not need to change. People should not be required to change, especially those confident and secure themselves and how they choose to live. It is unfortunate that 'change' has become synonymous with 'good' or compared 'better' to what we have now. Whether in the BDSM community, society, or politics; change should be viewed as neutral until the results of that change are obvious. No, I feel the point of the article called not for change but an awareness. I don't think it even called for acceptance. Awareness of the perception you are giving people, especially outsiders who are in the majority and who can effect democratic change that will have a negative impact on access of WIITWD. To view the largest umbrella of WIITWD illustrating just about every aspect it takes, all you need to do is attend the Folsom Street Fair. You'll see everything from 'Furies' to 'Human Toilets' and everything in between of all genders and sexual preferences actively participating or strolling along displaying their particular kink. If at this year's event a street fight broke out between the LGBT contingent and the Hetero contingent; would the perception be focused only those participating or the entire event? Don't you think there would be a pressure from the outside to end the event entirely? How soon would CM, a place where the event it noted in 'Upcoming Events', and other sites like it come under scrutiny? The UK has already banned images that can be perceived 'obscene'. Do you think people have stopped taking them? Has their 'value' and cost to those seeking them gone up or down? The consequences are what is often not considered. If the open event called Folsom no longer existed. Who would that impact? Not me, not beth, and really not many of those with access to people with shared desires. It will make the ground temporarily barren; but people's personal desires, especially ones as basic and fundamental to our nature as sex, will not go away. They'll just be harder to find. That is the world that Master Skip was hoping to avoid. Whether perceived or in practice, people are assholes. There are disagreements and limitless "What if..." examples of inequity. One person's perfect playground may include another person's hard limit. It's not hard to come up with an example of that. There is a thread regarding drinking and play. There is a facility in LA that allows you to BYOB to parties. We may not do so every time we attend, but we love the liberty and freedom of that access. The same holds true regarding its policy to allow sexual contact. There are many, 'good people' who would say both those things have no place and should not occur at a 'public' event. Although I've never seen anyone with a funnel standing by the door tying anyone up to a spanking bench requiring that a person down a shot of tequila before entering; it is that image that comes to mind for some people. I bet there are many who would deem the club 'unsafe' and try to get the place closed, even though there is another club less than 1/2 mile away that does prohibit both sex and alcohol. Why is it that many would, and do, go out of their way to try and close the 'bad club'? Why aren't they aware that both ways can function and work for the people who analyze the situation make a decision? Why do they feel it necessary and want to make a decision for the 'community' about what is 'right' and 'wrong'? I view Master Skip's message as a simple request not to end the infighting or change anyone's actions or activities, but to be aware of the consequences of taking action and making unilateral decisions that exclude anyone. As an adult you have the ability to participate or not. The interaction, debate, and discussion that occurs between disagreeing parties should generate understanding; appreciating the common denominator that we all are different. We should be aware of that difference. We shouldn't try to change each other in order to create a false image created by compromise that results in projecting something we are not. There is no value to that image of unity. Together we'd still make be a very small minority. Acceptance in society is an unobtainable goal. Tolerance is the best we can hope to achieve. To get there we don't have to change ourselves or each other we just have to tolerate a bit more. However MR, that still doesn't surrender the ability to call 'bullshit!' when someone creates a dead spouse, or claims authorship of a lifestyle talking point, to generate profile activity. Whether in the lifestyle or society in general; we'd all be better off with less tolerance of hypocrisy, deceit, and false bravado.

burntcynder -> RE: "The Rise & Fall of the M/s Community: A Cautionary Observation" (8/26/2008 10:03:15 AM)
Merc, Thank You for offering this post. I found the words educating and enlightening. Education is the foundation for change, and betterment of ones self. However it now becomes my responsibility to take this information and make the changes in my own life that are needed. It is not my responsibility to demand change nor improvement in anyone’s life. It is easy to become disheartened observing the incivility that is evident both online and real time in this style of living I have come to embrace as my way of life. Masters, Doms, Tops, slaves, submissives, and bottoms come and go, they take with them the beliefs and principles they embrace, and discard what they can’t. It is my responsibility to do the same for myself. Until I have walked in their skin (which is impossible) I have no right to judge their lives. I can simply observe, and take notes. My responsibility to this way of life is to live it the best way I can. I can be civil, polite, and behave in a manner that allows me to hold my head up without shame. I take that responsibility seriously. I can educate myself, improve myself, and grow. I do not have the right to do so by demeaning or insulting others. It is also my own personal responsibility not to allow the bitterness and disillusions of others to infect my vision, and flavor what comes from my own mouth. cyn

Prinsexx -> RE: "The Rise & Fall of the M/s Community: A Cautionary Observation" (8/26/2008 10:14:27 AM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_A9xgNFW-k&feature=related i know my place.

TimeInEveryDay -> RE: "The Rise & Fall of the M/s Community: A Cautionary Observation" (8/26/2008 10:33:14 AM)
It seems that every community (non-BDSM) we've been involved with in the last 20 yrs is suffering in one way or another. Wondering if it's either an indicator of current American culture, or an artifact of the chat room civilization taking over for face to face interaction. There are always a few posters who think nothing of outright attacking another poster, just to appear knowledgeable and superior. We have used the guest function of CM for years mainly as a way of avoiding unnecessary stress and agitation. It will be interesting to survey the landscape in the next 10 to 20 yrs.

MadRabbit -> RE: "The Rise & Fall of the M/s Community: A Cautionary Observation" (8/26/2008 10:57:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth I don't believe that Master Skip's goal was for people to applaud and say "Things need to change!". I don't think it was either. My point was that one of the phenomenon I have noticed is that when one individual seeks to promote awareness of a certain issue in a group of people, the people on the receiving end seem to become mostly aware and focused on the actions of others and less aware and focused on the actions of the self. As such the positive reception of the message becomes moot eventually as the message itself gets lost in the ego and the self delusion that our own actions are above right and wrong. Post after post in response to the article demonstrate this in action. Awareness of the "problem" has been achieved, but it's awareness of the "problem" that "other people" are causing with no mention of the "problem" being caused by self action. Christ, somebody should call the Preacher! We have all these saints! Positively received? Sure, in a superficial sense, but for the reception to be truly positive, individuals might have to direct their scrutiny of actions from "other people" to the "self". Awareness along the lines of "Boy, you know, I really have been kind of asshole to people in D/S relationships, because I kind of thought the relationship was inferior to a M/S relationship" or maybe "You know, just because I don't like Goth people doesn't mean they don't have a right to be a part of the sub-culture so perhaps I should ease up on them." would probably prove more "positive" then responding with bitching about what other people are doing. quote: However MR, that still doesn't surrender the ability to call 'bullshit!' when someone creates a dead spouse, or claims authorship of a lifestyle talking point, to generate profile activity. Whether in the lifestyle or society in general; we'd all be better off with less tolerance of hypocrisy, deceit, and false bravado. Of course, some incivility and intolerance to actions is unavoidable. It's why I consider to be an inescapable part of human interaction. But there is a world of difference between incivility and intolerance to "Bullshit" and incivility and intolerance to other people's opinions and unique lifestyle choices. In fact, I support incivility and intolerance to "Bullshit" so much that I can't help but mention the irony I find reading posts reprimanding others for their incivility and intolerance being made by people who have shown the most incivility and intolerance to anyone who doesn't fall in accords with their "pure" vision of the lifestyle! Saints, indeed!

stella41b -> RE: Hmmmm (8/26/2008 11:04:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: masterforRT When I basically said the same thing a few weeks ago---I was treated uncivilly here! Okay, I'm going to engage here. But not with a comment you can take the wrong way, okay? I'm going to take your side and agree with you and agree that yes, you were perhaps treated uncivilly, and that yes, you do have a right to express yourself and your opinions here just like anyone else on the boards. However the thing is with negative emotions and feelings is that once experienced they should be somehow dealt with and managed, and not allowed to fester, agreed? Otherwise it becomes an 'issue', baggage which is allowed to fester. I remember the threads from some days back, it is true that people were critical, but you know not everybody has to agree with such controversial opinions and this may evoke derision and hostility in others. But is it worth harbouring grudges against people on a BDSM message board? As far as I am aware the B in BDSM doesn't stand for bitterness, agreed? quote: ORIGINAL: masterforRT The post was about how Doms should be respected for their position even though you might not respect them as persons. Now here we come to the seat of the issue, which appears to be for you more than others (I haven't seen any more threads created on specifically this topic). I can see where you are coming from. You are forming a logical argument, and it is perfectly logical, based on what I feel is the following syllogism: General principle: All doms deserve respect. Specific application: I am a dom. Conclusion: I deserve respect. There is however a problem with this logic. Please allow me to give you another example if I may: General principle: Rabbits eat carrots Specific application: stella41b likes carrots Conclusion: stella41b is a rabbit. Now tell me masterforRT, do I look anything like a rabbit? But then again if a Dom rapes and abuses a submissive, does he deserve respect in your eyes? You cannot fool me masterforRT, I know beneath the glasses and that domly expression there is a fine mind and a brain which works. With a bit of thinking I'm sure you could have found a better argument to justify your argument, which might have prevented such derision from others on the boards. quote: ORIGINAL: masterforRT Pot calling the kettle black, perhaps? I don't know...but he must have been thinking of THIS place when he wrote this. I cannot speak for Master Skip, but you know we are talking of the same place which has been pretty much my online support community and at times emotional strength and in the beginning there were people who went out of their way to ensure that I wasn't having suicidal thoughts. Therefore you will probably understand why I may beg to differ on your point here. Not that I don't have people here who don't like me, but you know, I don't come here to take part in a popularity contest but merely to share, learn, discuss and have the odd laugh here and there. quote: ORIGINAL: masterforRT Can this be turned around? I don't know....but a good start would be less nastiness in these very forums! I'm so glad you can see the solution. Or do you feel that I am too being disrespectful? Tell you what, you read over these words and consider what motivated me to write them. I'm not seeking a Master and I doubt you would ever consider me as anything much more than a friend, so therefore I extend the hand of friendship and you can feel free to PM me, as anyone can regarding anything I write here. Perhaps you would care to join me in trying to set some sort of example here on the boards? You say you are a Dom, okay I accept this, and you have made it perfectly clear that you would like to be respected. So okay, be respected, but it's a two way street and you need to give something back in return. Isn't this the whole essence of BDSM, masterforRT, giving? Care to let go of the slights of the past threads and rise above the pettiness and become more positive in your postings? Care to walk with me and many others the higher path? Can you yourself show yourself to be an example? What say you?

Mercnbeth -> RE: "The Rise & Fall of the M/s Community: A Cautionary Observation" (8/26/2008 11:19:25 AM)
quote: It seems that every community (non-BDSM) we've been involved with in the last 20 yrs is suffering in one way or another. Wondering if it's either an indicator of current American culture, or an artifact of the chat room civilization taking over for face to face interaction.There are always a few posters who think nothing of outright attacking another poster, just to appear knowledgeable and superior. We have used the guest function of CM for years mainly as a way of avoiding unnecessary stress and agitation. It will be interesting to survey the landscape in the next 10 to 20 yrs. How does anonymity facilitate the avoidance of "stress and agitation"? If you read something that triggers an agitating resonse is that response lessened because your agreement or disagreement with the subject isn't public? Reality is some people just don't "appear knowledgeable and superior"; some are. There is no escaping that fact. It's a fact that I hope never changes. Would you prefer a world where all knowledge and ability were equal with individuals handicapped to societal determined 'norm' or 'standard'? The Olympics would be a bore if everyone ran at the same pace. Fortunately, as in the case of one of Mike Phelps races, superiority can now be determined in the hundredths a second. I seek to learn, and have learned from the "superior" and "more knowledgeable". When I do, I have a sense of accomplishment and thank the person who helped me learn some skill or some fact that I didn't know or could do before. It's also a fact that there as some skills and some knowledge I'll never obtain. Whether that is the ability of flicking a dime off beth's nipple with a 10 foot bull-whip or understanding the theory of E=MC2; I don't feel myself diminished or less of a person surrounded by a group of people who do have those skills and can understand Einstein. My reaction would be same in both cases; "Damn! You're amazing!" while shaking their hand. While there doesn't have to be appreciation, jealousy or resentment shouldn't be a reaction either. Ten or 20 years from now the landscape will be no different. There will always be those comfortable being active and out front in their desires and beliefs. There will always be those more comfortable observing on the sidelines. There is no assignment of 'better' to either of those groups. Nor should there be a requirement to switch preferences. It was that way 10-20 years ago. The passage of time creates different access venues, such as the internet, but it doesn't spawn different results or even different mixes of participation. The "chat-room" impact is inconsequential. Unless/until there is no way to turn off the computer and/or the web-cam; participation will always be voluntary. Access may be reduced by cost or, as has occurred in the UK, regulation of content, but real life participation will not wax or wane if chat rooms ended tomorrow. These are words. People can only be "attacked" by them if they are vulnerable to a literary attack. However learning something from someone more skilled or knowledgeable is something I hope happens to me every day. Fortunately, for me, most times it does.

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