RE: BDSM & kink (Full Version)

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WhiplashSmile2 -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/28/2008 5:00:27 AM)

I'm with LA and Darcyandthedark, when it comes to what BDSM stands for.  D/s or any relationship dynamic is a different animal in my book.

If I felt that D/s was so important to BDSM, I would have never been in a DOM couple relationship at one time.

I find too many people taking D/s to extreme measures and thought processes that it's screws up relationships, activities, communication, and gets applied to places that it should never should be.   Basically, it just makes things more confusing and needlessly difficult for many people.

When I make jokes about trying to figure out if my brand of toothpaste is more D or s type in nature, I am making a jab at mocking the extremes people can take D/s.  

Many people fall into trying to play out stereotype concieved notions and what their orientations should be.  They play out needless D/s interactions with one another when they have no D/s relationship with each other.   Some people mindlessly insist that people should act more D or s when simply getting to know each other.  What's sad is that people tend to loose their manners, and stop behaving like civil human beings towards one another.

Doms expecting that somebody of a submissive orientation should be kissing their asses,  Submissives trying to push or test Doms to see if they are really true Doms and an endless list of things that well, are not all that civil and polite.

I went into a BDSM chat room earlier, and actually witnessed a Domme get all huffy and blow out of chat.  Why because she expected another female Dominant to act like a submissive.  Anyways, it bruised her ego and she blew out of the chatroom.  Now, there was an excellent post from mercnbeth sharing Master Skips address about the M/s community.  Two points Master Skip pointed out, was lack of Self Esteem and Narcissism as being major issues in the current M/s community.

Dare I express this, these things I see as an issue in the BDSM community at large.

Some people are so in Love with themselves and their built up images of their orientations, that it's not funny.  Also, many people place a high degree of self-esteem in being or living up to their orientations.  Ones personal indentification with any specific orientation is a bad place to invest ones sense of self esteem.   For those that do, they will constantly being trying to prove to themselves and the world how much a true (orientation) that they are.  Some people simply fall in love with themselves and their orientation, that well they think they are the hottest coolest whatever orientation they can be.

In short, the focus become extremely self centered.  Don't get me wrong, having a sense of ones true self is a good thing.  Self centered itself in not a bad thing per se.  However, there is a limit to self centered healthy and self centered bad.   Like they say, too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.  Case in point with being self centered.

I realize that some people out there, will disagree with me on various points of views I express or share.  Still none the less, I'm writting about issues that I see time and time again rear up.

One can be part of the active BDSM community with having any involvement or interest in the M/s community.  One could have a basic and yet simple interest in S&M.  There was a thread started about the political correctness of S&M now days.  S&M does not require the practice of D/s nor involvement of a D/s relationship to do.   It's about the giving and recieving of pain, on the simplest of terms.  For many people it's a form of release.  For some it's very spirtual.  S&M actually has been a part of my religious practices.   However, you don't have to have religion or be seeking out a religous experience to do S&M.  Trying to apply D/s to S&M at times makes about as much sense as insisting upon Religion being applied to it.

I feel as if I am digressing into another long winded post.  For some people I'm like a record player that is caught up on repeat mode.  To others, I'm simply expressing something that they are already aware of.   Perhaps there will be one or two, new people to this site and message board, that may stumble upon this.   That this will be some food for thought for them.

There are many people that simply read the message board daily, that never post.  There is a greater Audience that is watching all of us here exchange our thoughts, experiences, points of views.  It's just not all about us regular message board users.  People are watching us and reading everything we type out.

At the end of the day,  D/s is simply an optional add on for BDSM.  People get to pick and choose what they are looking for in a relationship.  If you wish to become part of the M/s community.  Please jump right in and explore it.  Just remember that you are diving into a sub-culture within a sub-culture.

I think Master Skip best said it when referring to the M/s community, about being a group outsiders in a group of outsiders.  Yet so many people believe that the BDSM community is one in the same as the M/s community.  New people coming into the BDSM community are some lost and confused and require some direction.  What disheartens me, is that some people attempt to bully or strong arm them into being part of the M/s community.   If they do not assimulate to the way of things, that they should fuck off and that they have no business being part of the BDSM community at all.   Some people in fact assert that all D/s relationships involve what is often referred to as TPE (total power exchange). 

Many people who have had a sincere interest in BDSM itself are being greated in a very uncivil way.  It leaves them with a bad impression about what the BDSM community stands for as well as what the M/s community represents.  The very reason why people are rejecting using protocols with DOMs that A. are not their Masters  B. out of respect for orientation.  Is because A and B are being highly abused by many people. 

When a newbie submissive comes here, and is welcome by countless people saying "On your knees bitch, call me Sir you worthless Slut", it's an abuse that undermines the true nature of what D/s is all about.   The backlash effect is such, that there's no way in Hell this Girl has any respect for anybody demanding to be called Sir.   It's really common sense what is happening.

Many people are getting too carried away with orientations and labels, and have this fantasy based notion and what D/s should be, which includes the incivil treatment of total strangers.   Where DOMs are trying to Prove how DOM they can be, and submissives are trying to prove themselves by following along or otherwise playing up their respected orientation.

People have a very difficult time seeing past this, to a deeper understanding and appreciation for what BDSM is all about.

The only way to help curve this, is to raise public and community awareness.  Not an easy task that will happen overnight.




leadership527 -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/28/2008 5:48:17 AM)

*laughs*  And who would've thunk that this thread would've turned into yet another dictionary thread...  amazingly enough, this time, the BDSM "community" cannot even agree on what BDSM means.  You'd think that given a four letter acronym, we could at least say what the 4 letters stand for.  Especially when the acronym in question is the defining acronym of whatever it is that we are... community is looking more and more questionable.




WhiplashSmile2 -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/28/2008 6:58:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
*laughs*  And who would've thunk that this thread would've turned into yet another dictionary thread...  amazingly enough, this time, the BDSM "community" cannot even agree on what BDSM means.  You'd think that given a four letter acronym, we could at least say what the 4 letters stand for.  Especially when the acronym in question is the defining acronym of whatever it is that we are... community is looking more and more questionable.


Mind you "BDSM refers to a wide spectrum of activities and forms of interpersonal relationships." according to some a good source.

The Letters meaning...
  • Bondage & Discipline (B&D)
  • Dominance & Submission (D&S)
  • Sadism & Masochism (or Sadomasochism) (S&M)

I tend to not view D&S as being one in the same as D/s.   Let me explain.  Dominance and Dominance joining together in a reltionship (DOM Couple).  Submissive and Submissive joined together in a relationship (Sub Couple).
Those the alternate between D&S (all kinds of combinations here)...

It is not D&S that I disagree with, it's when it's sole context is taken to be that of a D/s relationship.

Some people just enjoy Bondage, toss out the other letters. 

The One wayesm thinking of D/s actual screws with the "wide spectrum of activities and forms of interpersonal relationships".




wallbanger -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/28/2008 7:13:43 AM)

bdsm i'm finding is as indiviually defined as the individual's themselves.
it's not a term that means the same to each.
because the very words themselves are defined by our experience or lack of experience.
it's like asking someone to describe "faith" or "love"
each has in their mind what those words feel like what the represent and each person has their thoughts about it... it's lovely when two people who think closely the same definition can connect, but how often have you found someone that felt equally and exactly as you do.
so, i use the term bdsm loosely to describe what i feel is out of the vanilla... and to me "vanilla" is also just as extremely hard to define.... imo




ODadEO -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/28/2008 8:31:45 AM)

To me, BDSM is about power.  Taking power over another person (or the converse -- giving power over yourself to another.)  I hear a lot of comments about "bdsm is not about sex" and I must say I have to agree, except the taking power over another is so erotic to me, it always leads to sexual usage.  But the power exchange is very enticing in all of its guises -- being able to humiliate/humble, use in whatever fashion suits me at the moment, etc.  That is kinky, to me, or at least I employ a lot of kink into the relationship.

Just rambling about this... I don't think they are the same, but sometimes hard to seperate, eh?




leadership527 -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/28/2008 10:25:13 AM)

I'm not sure I followed your distinction between D&S and D/s Whiplash.  Also, I represent one of those M/s only couples (that is to say, the other letters in the acronym soup don't really apply -- we don't hit or get hit.  we seldom do bondage and never beyond what almost all vanilla couples fool around with at one time or another.  I honestly have no idea what "discipline" means... near as I can tell, it's an excuse for SM play.  Those things just aren't draws for us. 

That being said, I don't think one little bit that I have any sort of lock on any 'twuism'.  In fact, quite the opposite.  Having now looked at "the scene" both online and real life, what I have come to conclude is as follows...

No matter what the letters stand for, in practical application, when someone says they are into BDSM, they are referring to kinky sex that involves pain.  It is for this reason that I don't consider myself a member of the BDSM community.  I visit into foreign lands and sometimes learn something useful.  But for the most part, I'm a stranger in a strange land here.  Even at our MAST meeting (which in theory is all about Master/slave dynamics and not whipping), we are the ONLY couple attending that does not participate in SM.  The vast majority of the conversations are in SM topics.  The vast majority of the pride displayed by doms and subs alike is centered around who can hit who the hardest. 

I don't think they are "wrong".  I don't think that what I am doing is "twuer".  In fact, I recognize that I'm the outsider here.




sistermargaret -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/28/2008 10:27:56 AM)

*laughs*  And who would've thunk that this thread would've turned into yet another dictionary thread...

Well, i think its wonderful that so many folks are posting about this. Google lists 42,600,000 sites when i type in 'bdsm', lol. i belong to one Real Time Group in 3 cities along Lake Erie and each of those Groups has a completely different flavor. Each of these Groups attracts people from a far flung geographical area around them, so opinions differ within each Group too. I think you'll get different answers according to the different people you ask. Isn't diversity grand?  In the long run, i feel MUCH better about the whole thing now, and am comfortable knowing i'm a fairly average kinkster who is changing and evolving as i gain experence and wisdom, which, hopefully, W/we all do. Thanks, E/everyone!
sm
(honorifics? That could be a whole new thread, giggle)




Daes -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/28/2008 10:43:26 AM)

First off.... BDSM /is/ kink. I've always seem D/s as a bit different though.If you seperate the play and look at it in terms of a dynamic and the relationship between the submissive and the dominant, then it takes on a different meaning.

I can't answer from your perspective though, so I'll just go by my own... I've blown off dominants that I believed were kinky but not into power exchange - which is something I desire in a D/s relationship. To quote my own profile "I don't want just kink, I can get kink Anywhere. I want someone who wants the power ripped from my body." This was my way of stating that I needed more than sexual based domination and spankings.

Everyone dominates differently and for the longest time I was playing with a partner, Mike. He is a sadist and though He considers himself dominant, /I/ do not. To me, he is simply a Sadist. I tried explaining as much to my roommate when he seemed confused when I stated that Mike and my Sir dominate differently.

Sir thrives on my submission, awknowledges it, cherishes it. I am His, my stuff belongs to Him, He has say over what I can and cannot do - and that is Our dynamic. Mike has no interest in that kind of power in his relationships, but he requires a S&M based relationship.

Just do what works for you, and I dont believe anyone should put anyone else down simply because your interests dont match.




WhiplashSmile2 -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/28/2008 12:58:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

I'm not sure I followed your distinction between D&S and D/s Whiplash.  Also, I represent one of those M/s only couples (that is to say, the other letters in the acronym soup don't really apply -- we don't hit or get hit.  we seldom do bondage and never beyond what almost all vanilla couples fool around with at one time or another.  I honestly have no idea what "discipline" means... near as I can tell, it's an excuse for SM play.  Those things just aren't draws for us. 

That being said, I don't think one little bit that I have any sort of lock on any 'twuism'.  In fact, quite the opposite.  Having now looked at "the scene" both online and real life, what I have come to conclude is as follows...

No matter what the letters stand for, in practical application, when someone says they are into BDSM, they are referring to kinky sex that involves pain.  It is for this reason that I don't consider myself a member of the BDSM community.  I visit into foreign lands and sometimes learn something useful.  But for the most part, I'm a stranger in a strange land here.  Even at our MAST meeting (which in theory is all about Master/slave dynamics and not whipping), we are the ONLY couple attending that does not participate in SM.  The vast majority of the conversations are in SM topics.  The vast majority of the pride displayed by doms and subs alike is centered around who can hit who the hardest. 

I don't think they are "wrong".  I don't think that what I am doing is "twuer".  In fact, I recognize that I'm the outsider here.


Leadership527..  Thank you for this interesting post.  Actually, thank you again for expressing this.  It's actually is very insightful in a manner that I was not expecting.   Hummmmmmmmmmm...  It should not be all about SM topics.  Actually I think that annoy me a little, and I'm into S&M.   I can honestly say my previous M/s relationship was not centered around S&M and well frankly..  might as well go to a workshop on some specific S&M activitity.  This is not what I would expect to get out of MAsT.  mmmm...  in terms of D/s vs D&S...  I sort of paused for a moment after I wrote this one line.

It is not D&S that I disagree with, it's when it's sole context is taken to be that of a D/s relationship.

Something I wish to take some time, and organize and work out this thought process in a more organized manner.  Not just type of things as they enter my mind.  Most of what I post on here is totally from my thought streams. 




leadership527 -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/28/2008 1:13:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile2
Leadership527..  Thank you for this interesting post.  Actually, thank you again for expressing this.  It's actually is very insightful in a manner that I was not expecting.   Hummmmmmmmmmm...
Well, score one for us vanilla guys *laughs*.  I'm not quite sure what you found so insightful, but from the way you wrote your response, I'm glad I didn't answer with whatever it was you expected *grins*.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile2
It should not be all about SM topics.  Actually I think that annoy me a little, and I'm into S&M.

You and I could debate forever what it should be about.  But just a random sampling of the threads on these boards pretty much proves my point.  Also, I don't really see it as my job to enter into some new place and then reform it.  MAST is what it is.  So is collarme.  I've gotten what I needed from both.  The next steps for me, however, are going to require a peer group more able and willing to discuss D/s in depth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile2
Something I wish to take some time, and organize and work out this thought process in a more organized manner.  Not just type of things as they enter my mind.  Most of what I post on here is totally from my thought streams. 
Ah yes, stream of conciousness... just some days my stream of conciousness is muddier than others.




WhiplashSmile2 -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/28/2008 3:29:25 PM)

Mmmmmmmm...  doing some major rethinking.  Mind you.  I was tearing into D/s overkill not thinking about S&M overkill aspects.  Mmmm.....




Leatherist -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/28/2008 3:34:39 PM)

I see as many people going ga ga over the "spiritual aspects of sm" as those lost in control fantasies.

It's really about the same to me as watching timothy leary prattling on about the wonders of being a "free mind" by acid tripping.




WhiplashSmile2 -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/29/2008 2:48:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

I see as many people going ga ga over the "spiritual aspects of sm" as those lost in control fantasies.

It's really about the same to me as watching timothy leary prattling on about the wonders of being a "free mind" by acid tripping.


I'm seeing things in a slightly different light.  I got up on a soapbox for a moment because of issues with those lost in D/s control fantasies.  However, there are those that are here simply for the D/s or M/s and could care less about all the S&M aspects.

I've been doing some serious rethinking upon the whole D&S aspects to BDSM itself.  Back a year ago or so, I had made a post regarding D&S itself being applied to Broader range of relationship types besides D/s alone.

However, this is something I feel I need to spend some time in thought and actually organizing things in clear manner.  Not something to just bang out quickly on a thread posting.

Also, I feel I should perhaps engage in doing a little research seeing who has already has similar thoughts on this matter. 




RCdc -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/29/2008 3:29:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
No matter what the letters stand for, in practical application, when someone says they are into BDSM, they are referring to kinky sex that involves pain.  It is for this reason that I don't consider myself a member of the BDSM community.  I visit into foreign lands and sometimes learn something useful.  But for the most part, I'm a stranger in a strange land here.  Even at our MAST meeting (which in theory is all about Master/slave dynamics and not whipping), we are the ONLY couple attending that does not participate in SM.  The vast majority of the conversations are in SM topics.  The vast majority of the pride displayed by doms and subs alike is centered around who can hit who the hardest. 


I found this incredibly interesting and enlightening (in a sense).  I'm a bit surprised actually that in this time, that people still associate it (BDSM) with pain.
 
the.dark.




leadership527 -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/29/2008 7:19:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: the.dark.
I found this incredibly intereesting... that in this time, that people still associate BDSM with pain.

Me too.  It wasn't how I "learned" it.  It wasn't what I was expecting.  It especially wasn't I what I was expecting at MAST.  But I've come to accept that it is the reality.  When I look around in any BDSM forum, either online or real life, that is what I see and it approaches 100%.  Techncially BDSM may include dominance and submission as it's own thing.  But practically it does not.  In practical usage, when someone says they are into BDSM, they are saying they are into kinky sex with pain.  That isn't going to be 100%, but it'll get me the correct answer WAY more often than not.

That is, at least, my personal experience coming new into the "scene" with no previous exposure and the only preconceived notions I had were from "book learning".  I've reformed my views.  The "book learning" isn't even remotely accurate to the reality.




colouredin -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/29/2008 7:31:52 AM)

I dont think that all BDSM refers to is pain, bondage isnt painful and discipline isnt ness either, I say im into BDSM but i dont mean that im into "kinky sex with pain" seeing as im fairly far away from being a masochist, meh oh well




DesFIP -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/30/2008 1:29:45 AM)

Being snarky, my response to such a person would be "Yes, I'm into BDSM. But not with you". And subs get that kind of response when they refuse guys too. "You won't submit to me? You aren't a real sub". Laugh, jeer, point fingers and move on to an adult not a whiny little kid.





LuckyAlbatross -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/30/2008 8:22:56 AM)

I've been wondering if this may be a generational thing- that most people get into this AFTER their vanilla dynamics and so they need to feel a way to distinguish their Ds dynamics from previous vanilla dynamics and so they bind kink and Ds together? 

On the other hand, I think future generations will be a lot happier to just enjoy the kink without feeling the need to be "serious" about Ds- not that they won't enjoy Ds or Ms dynamics, I just get the feeling we'll have a lot more people content to be bottoms and not peer pressured to be "more" as a sub.




Leatherist -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/30/2008 8:36:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I've been wondering if this may be a generational thing- that most people get into this AFTER their vanilla dynamics and so they need to feel a way to distinguish their Ds dynamics from previous vanilla dynamics and so they bind kink and Ds together? 

On the other hand, I think future generations will be a lot happier to just enjoy the kink without feeling the need to be "serious" about Ds- not that they won't enjoy Ds or Ms dynamics, I just get the feeling we'll have a lot more people content to be bottoms and not peer pressured to be "more" as a sub.


Then they need to back way the fuck off on these "supermen" expectations of Tops then.

If you force men to jump through hoops for kinky sex-they WILL retaliate in kind when they get the upper hand.




persephonee -> RE: BDSM & kink (8/30/2008 9:01:58 AM)

If a woman forces the man to jump through hoops and the man retaliates when he has the upper hand....then to me that indicates that neither person is ready for a relationship together of any flavor.




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