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RE: Mentoring... - 8/27/2008 2:08:44 PM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

People that use "special" words for relationships (such as "mentoring") involve fucking in it. People that use the word appropriately (to coach someone into being more like them) don't involve fucking in it.

Cali

Exactly.

Smile, well, I do get that, too. Really, I don't mean to be so critical, but why don't we simply call it what it is? She plays with this dom for awhile and he introduces her to things. We use this flowery word that she is only being mentored.

Kind of playing on what CD said, I can see her dom asking about her past relationship, too.

"How long did he mentor you? What did he do? Damn, girl, it took you a long time to get it right."

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 41

RE: Mentoring... - 8/27/2008 2:18:15 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

More to the point, I'd also be willing to bet that YOU could do the same thing.

Here's what I would say: I have these rules and protocols, they suit me. During your mentoring period you will learn/use these. Please understand that these are not universally held rules/protocols and that other dominants may enjoy similar things or they may not be anything like me. Now I'm going to use you. The end.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 42

RE: Mentoring... - 8/27/2008 2:42:22 PM

TheChastiser

Posts: 95
Joined: 10/16/2005
From: Hemel Hempstead
Status: offline

a mentor does not necessarily have to be the dominant dynamic. after all a mentor is really a mixture of teacher, guide, friend and sounding board. sometimes a mentor of the same dynamic as the mentoree (if thats a word?) can be far better.

i would say, that if a submissive has a dominant for a mentor, which does seem the most common combination, then this can be wholesome, but, there are many pitfalls here.

firstly, many single doms purport to be mentors, but use this as a mechanism to gain a submissive for play without the normal responsibilities of a relationship. often, the mentoree (again?) is new to the lifestyle so prone to believe, even if their nature has doubts. ergo, they become prey.

another slant on this is, that the mentor is genuine, but the boundaries are crossed, and the submissive forms a bond with the mentor, and starts to see 'him' as their dominant as opposed to their mentor. this can end badly, particularly as one side feels they have a relationship and the other doesnt. again, advantages can be taken here for the unscrupulous.

like any human to human interaction, done in the correct way, with no ties apart from friendship, this can work, but, mostly it ends up badly for at least one of the pair.

Mike

_____________________________

Let Me unchain your mind and your sexuality will follow.

(in reply to DavidS8ist)

Post #: 43

RE: Mentoring... - 8/27/2008 2:48:36 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheChastiser

sometimes a mentor of the same dynamic as the mentoree (if thats a word?) can be far better.

Mike

*nods* I would even go so far as to say that, in our practices, having the mentor be of the same dynamic placement is preferred -- an s-type mentor knows intimately what it means to be an s-type, and is right there in the trenches with the mentee. By the same token, a d-type mentor would be familiar with some of the pitfalls particular to the d-type mindset that might not be recognized by an s-type observing d-type behavior. Having the mentor be of the same dynamic alignment as the mentee also helps to eliminate some of the pressure and temptation to turn the relationship into something that it wasn't originally created to be (ie, a training or D/s relationship).

CFB

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to TheChastiser)

Post #: 44

RE: Mentoring... - 8/27/2008 4:15:01 PM

CalifChick

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Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
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That's pretty much the definition of mentor.

If you want to be a secretary, you find a secretary to mentor you.
If you want to be a CEO, you find a CEO to mentor you.

If you want to be a secretary, then you would NOT find a CEO to mentor you.

Cali

_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 45

RE: Mentoring... - 8/27/2008 4:18:00 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: soul2share

okay all.....I'll try to explain this a little clearer.

First, CD....the "conversation" you outline won't happen. What he's done is not show me the "proper" way to do things, but he's shown me how to NOT be afraid of things. I know that everyone has their own way of using their implements, and because of the way he's teaching me to deal with that fact, I CAN deal with the differences. I have NEVER reached subspace or even anything close before....yet the last time he flogged and whipped me I was so gone that I almost let go of the chain and fell on my face 3 times. What felt like 5 minutes of flogging was actually 30.....and I've never been hit that hard before. I have one dom that I've seen, and the intensity that he starts out at is the same level I usually end up at....I've only tolerated his sessions, never once truly enjoyed them. The next time we meet, I know that I will enjoy it.

???? Excuse me soul if I seem dense, but why would you not...as an intelligent human being and submissive...KNOW before this gentleman came along that different people have different ways of using their implements? And are you telling me that now that he has taught you this...that different people use their implements in different ways...that you can now enjoy the VERY SAME TECHNIQUE and VERY SAME STRIKES that you did not enjoy before? And if this other dominant means anything to you and you mean something to him, I have a feeling he might be just a bit irked/upset/hurt that this one little piece of information enabled you to go to a space that he has not been able to take you but now can.

quote:

He is showing me how to handle things in ways that so far, no one else has. He is also answering my questions about the varied aspects of this lifestyle. I don't care what title you choose to call it, mentoring, training, whatever...but he's showing me ways to improve myself, to make myself better for the dom that I hope to eventually serve. Again, it may not work for everyone, but it's working for me. That doesn't make it wrong, it doesn't make it stupid or useless.

Again, I have to ask...as another did...what happens then when you run up against a dominant who states clearly "I don't give a fuck what someone else taught you in terms of being better...you do not belong to them, you have chosen to belong to me. And THIS is what I think makes you a better submissive for ME. And, by what magical means did he arrive at the ability to train you/mentor you to be in a position that all dominants will consider you a better submissive? Or should we just consider you a better submissive because he says you are and you agree? What things has he taught you in any area outside of play that make you better?" Sorry for the harshness but I've dealt with that submissive before. She was a better submissive...for him. Not for me or for the other 4 dominants she'd been through in the 2 years since she'd been "released" by her mentor. And again, I will note that what he is teaching you is "submission as seen from one dominant's view". But isn't the view of the one you hope to serve someday the more important one? And how do you stop this dominant's view from overlaying every other dominant's view or to color your own seeking until you find one similar to he?

Katie, what he's done is answer MY questions about the things that I listed. The information he's given me will actually help me. I look at something from all angles, and when I've asked others my questions, I never got any kind of response that was helpful. I want to know BOTH sides of the equation, and he's let me see it. I know doms are not one size fits all, and what works for one isn't going to necessarily work for the other, but again, the whole point to me seeking him out was FOR ME, not any other doms. It is self improvement that I seek, not to be turned into a little subby robot. For me, the mental aspects are far more interesting than the physical ones, but then again, I tend to think too much!

I know ya'll are going to have your opinions, doubts, and probably there is some eye rolling going on....again, this works for me...YMMV. And I also have conversations with other subs, doms and switches, again to get their views on the lifestyle. I'm curious......not an idiot.

I don't believe anyone has called you an idiot, soul. But while you are stating that you are seeking information from other dominants and submissives and switches, you are also stating that you are not getting information from any of these. So then, he is the only one giving you information? And he is a play partner. Training someone how to take pain is training someone how to take pain from this inflictor in the way that he gives it.

(in reply to soul2share)

Post #: 46

RE: Mentoring... - 8/27/2008 4:23:38 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

I'm shortening my whole philosophical discussion about mentoring. I'll shorten it to say if you are mentored, you will be fucked. If you are a new dom being mentored by another, you will bring your girl along so he can fuck her to show you how.

Very cynical perspective -- fortunately, not one that is reflected in every mentoring relationship. In fact, I can't remember fucking ever being a part of the mentoring process on either end of the collar.

CFB

I have...and the reason it occurred was because the "training" that was part of her "mentoring" (he was teaching her how to handle being flogged with braided and knotted leather rather than just leather tails) took her into "subspace" and such a state of sexual arousal that...even though he was JUST her teacher...he had to be the kind and compassionate and caring dominant and give her some relief. The fact that he came? Well, sometimes sacrifices have to be made...

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 47

RE: Mentoring... - 8/27/2008 4:37:27 PM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

I have...and the reason it occurred was because the "training" that was part of her "mentoring" (he was teaching her how to handle being flogged with braided and knotted leather rather than just leather tails) took her into "subspace" and such a state of sexual arousal that...even though he was JUST her teacher...he had to be the kind and compassionate and caring dominant and give her some relief. The fact that he came? Well, sometimes sacrifices have to be made...

I realized that the reason I haven't had to deal with the whole 'fucking' issue in mentorship (on either end of the collar) is because I've always had my mentors chosen for me (when I was on the s-side of the collar) or chose my mentors (on the d-side of the collar) from among individuals who were on the same side of the leash as I was on. I don't consider the example you offered to be 'mentoring' -- I consider it to be 'training', and, to clarify, I -have- encountered sex as part of a training relationship. (Yet another reason that it is important to make sure that the language one is using is interpreted the same way by the other parties who are listening or contributing).

CFB

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 48

RE: Mentoring... - 8/27/2008 4:39:21 PM

CalifChick

Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline

See CD? It's not just me. LOL!

Cali
(who has had that "discussion" of terminology with more than one person in the past)

_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 49

RE: Mentoring... - 8/27/2008 6:02:01 PM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
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I think because the mentors don't want to seem like predators.
I will mentor you sounds more soothing to the newbie ear than I will touch you, tease you, beat you, fuck your mouth and ass until you learn to accept my cum.
On the newbie sub side, mentored sounds less.. used, than saying I played and fucked this guy for a few weeks, then moved on to this guy who taught me to give BJ's, and then this guy who taught me to take it up the ass.

Next dom: How many guys have you fucked???
Mentoring.. the wordsmiths way to get guiltless fucks.

Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain
but why don't we simply call it what it is? She plays with this dom for awhile and he introduces her to things. We use this flowery word that she is only being mentored.

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 50

RE: Mentoring... - 8/27/2008 6:51:36 PM

persephonee

Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I think because the mentors don't want to seem like predators.
I will mentor you sounds more soothing to the newbie ear than I will touch you, tease you, beat you, fuck your mouth and ass until you learn to accept my cum.
On the newbie sub side, mentored sounds less.. used, than saying I played and fucked this guy for a few weeks, then moved on to this guy who taught me to give BJ's, and then this guy who taught me to take it up the ass.

Next dom: How many guys have you fucked???
Mentoring.. the wordsmiths way to get guiltless fucks.

Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain
but why don't we simply call it what it is? She plays with this dom for awhile and he introduces her to things. We use this flowery word that she is only being mentored.

No.
All of these comments assume an innocence and passivity on the part of the submissive. Submissives are allowed to have sex drives. Submissives are adults and are capable...more than capable of making their own decisions...they choose not to in a relationship. This doesnt mean that, without permission, if they stepped off the curb and into traffic that they would be crushed by oncoming traffic as they were not directed to move out of the way.

s2s is obviously happy with her choice in partners and is learning what she wants to learn in the way she wants to do it. This may change over the course of the next few weeks and it may not. No one knows how that will turn out. Historically it may not have a happy ending...but perhaps we need to take a step back and acknowledge that she is a grown up with enough life experience to determine if she is being taken advantage of.

As much as i adore the Knight in Shining Armor...and believe me i doooo....i also know full well that i dont need to be rescued in order to survive. s2s didnt mention anything about any activity happening to her or around her that made her feel used or degraded or otherwise abused. If he calls himself mentor and she considers herself mentored by him....whats the problem. What about a man who considers himself Master but is paired with someone identifying as submissive as opposed to slave??

i know im showing how green i am today. And i apologise in advance for when i wake up and realize that i was taken for a ride as well, but, i have said it before and i hold it to be true that simply because a woman is new to submission doesnt mean she is new to life....the onus is on her if in the end she is used. And i believe that she may know that much.

And as for needing to explain herself to her "real" Dom...and how many partners shes had...this is a conversation we all have and seriously...how is the relationship you forged with your sexual first going these days....my apologies and smiles to those who married and dominated their firsts....

Just sayin.

_____________________________

You be the Captain; i'll be no one.

And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

(in reply to Missokyst)

Post #: 51

RE: Mentoring... - 8/27/2008 7:02:09 PM

hopelessfool

Posts: 988
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

And what about people who have only read bdsm to mean this this and this, meet a mentor, who abuses his station, and the girl ends up hurt or maimed, or other wise pained because the Mentor didnt commet to getting to know or let her trust him...

The problem while many people are not new, many people MY age are getting snagged into this trap...younge girls that are pretty new to freedom and life and such. And the preditors, are out there saying oh tasty.

Many mentors are so full of shit their eyes are a new shade of brown. True are some actually good, yes they are, does every man use the guise as mentor, as a way to get into a girls pants, No...

BUT the point many are trying to make is the bad mentors out weigh the good, and to open your eyes and see whats going on or otherwise "i promise to keep you safe, Im your mentor" ends up getting a girl in the hospital in need to stitches.

yes its on both parties, but im more likely to feel sympethetic to a girl being taken advantage of and minuplated, then someone old enough to know better and who knowingly prey on the weak and the easily manipulated for their own gain

_____________________________

" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to persephonee)

Post #: 52

RE: Mentoring... - 8/27/2008 7:03:14 PM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: persephonee

s2s is obviously happy with her choice in partners and is learning what she wants to learn in the way she wants to do it. This may change over the course of the next few weeks and it may not. No one knows how that will turn out. Historically it may not have a happy ending...but perhaps we need to take a step back and acknowledge that she is a grown up with enough life experience to determine if she is being taken advantage of.

Just sayin.

I have no problem with people doing whatever it is that makes them happy -- what bothers me more than a little bit is when people use words indiscriminately, choosing a word at random to describe what they do, when the word they choose isn't understood in common conversation to be meant the way that they choose to use it... because that kind of inaccuracy might lead to someone -else- getting involved in a situation where someone uses that word, the listener thinks it is being used in its traditional meaning, and doesn't realize until xhe's deeply immersed in a situation that xhe doesn't know how to extricate hirself from that the word being used wasn't being used the way xhe thought it was. This is especially bothersome when that person comes back later, and asks "what does this really mean?" and xhe gets 176 different definitions, most of which bear no resemblance to the traditional definition of the word. There really -is- a point to having a common language and having clear definitions for words.

CFB

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to persephonee)

Post #: 53

RE: Mentoring... - 8/27/2008 7:05:16 PM

CruelDesires

Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline

FR.

Maybe "Mentoring" should have the same stipulations that being evaluated/helped by a "Therapist" has. No sexual contact or sexual type attachments whatsoever. That would really fuck with the predators who use the word "Mentor" as a way to get an easy piece of ass.

C-D

_____________________________

Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
Lois McMaster Bujold, "A Civil Campaign", 1999

(in reply to persephonee)

Post #: 54

RE: Mentoring... - 8/27/2008 7:08:36 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

That will probably bring most mentoring relationships to a swift end!

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to CruelDesires)

Post #: 55

RE: Mentoring... - 8/27/2008 8:03:04 PM

persephonee

Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline

hf~
i enjoy reading your posts, btw...

i have never dated any man who is less than 15 years my senior. i was mostly involved with men from the time i was 17 until i was 23. Out of the men that i was involved with, i lived with 2. i now personally choose to date or see or whatever within the same age range...so even at my ripe old age, im still the youngest one in the bed.
Were these men predators? Maybe. Was i aware of what the expectations were in our relationship and was i able to comprehend that my actions may or may not have consequences even at the tender age of 19 and 21?? Hell yes. i am now and have always been first and foremost....accountable for my actions and decisions.
i would rather think you'd go batshit if it were intimated on the boards that you at your age were somehow less capable of making a decision based on your own internal set of morals and beliefs.

Now, if she were moaning and crying and saying...poor me...that bigbaddom hurt me and now im ruined...you would more than likely be rolling your eyes and wondering where her accountability was. Why? Because you are smart enough to know that in the end we are all responsible for our own actions and decisions. Up to and including deferring to another's will.

_____________________________

You be the Captain; i'll be no one.

And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

(in reply to hopelessfool)

Post #: 56

RE: Mentoring... - 8/27/2008 8:15:24 PM

persephonee

Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline

CFB~

i read your posts very closely and agree with most....including this one. Yes a common vocabulary makes things oh so much simpler...if we could only get one going....
My point, as i expressed it hastily and badly, is that i dont get the impression that s2s is being taken for a fool by this mentor/dom/playpartner. i really get the vibe that shes really into what she is learning and less into him as a person on a relationship level. Which, since i have no bloody idea who she is...is a stretch at best.
i just really dont like the commonly held belief that new subs are somehow in need of protection automatically. New subs are not new people. And while im ranting...i dont like the commonly held belief that submissives need to be perpetually in need of rescue. i dont need you to save me...i need you to take me...dominate me.

That being said, when can we talk more about your knife/needle/tattooing activities? Inquiring minds want to know....*grins*

_____________________________

You be the Captain; i'll be no one.

And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 57

RE: Mentoring... - 8/28/2008 3:29:36 AM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

Persephonee, that's kind of a different discussion, but I totally agree with you there. Sure newbies want things to happen and in many cases they realize the mentor is going to use them. But I don't want to hear excuses for what they did by saying they were being mentored and didn't realize...yada, yada, yada. The OP seems to be having a good time for an extended period with her "mentor" and that's just fine and dandy since she is happy.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to persephonee)

Post #: 58

RE: Mentoring... - 8/28/2008 5:21:00 AM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline

Actually the OP was just asking for opinions about what others thought mentor meant. I think she felt she was correct by turning the guy down. It was some other person down the line who thought it worked out well for her.

And yeah, for that person it worked out. I agree with you, its better when people hear more than one opinion *if asked* on the different ways people might mean it. Lots do complain about it after the fact.
Kyst

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 59

RE: Mentoring... - 8/28/2008 6:14:47 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

That's pretty much the definition of mentor.

If you want to be a secretary, you find a secretary to mentor you.
If you want to be a CEO, you find a CEO to mentor you.

If you want to be a secretary, then you would NOT find a CEO to mentor you.

Cali

That's the 80's self help chain bookstore 'how to succeed in business' definition of 'mentor'

Prior to that the term had a different connotation:
Random House unabridged dictionary...

Mentor:

a wise and trusted counselor or teacher.

to act as a mentor: She spent years mentoring to junior employees.
–verb (used with object)

Job title/rank didn't enter into it. Trust did.

(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 60

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