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RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 9:47:13 AM   
thishereboi


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Speech? nope, must have missed it....was it really great?

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 9:57:11 AM   
Thadius


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The fireworks were nice.   The speech was so-so, the event it self will be memorable for the historical context and gala.  Frankly, the man has delivered much better.

It did include lots of the checklist though.
Lots of new spending.
Tax the wealthy.
Bit more spending.
Anti war bits.
Tax the wealthy.
Attack the other candidate.
Claim to transcend politics and not enter into the old political games.
Attack the other candidate.
Tax the wealthy.
Bit on hope.
Bit on history.

That about sums it up. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=94087570 has the transcript.

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RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 10:00:02 AM   
thishereboi


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Oh, that speech. Yea I missed the fireworks....the rest I just didn't watch.

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 10:40:42 AM   
SilverMark


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Answers for Celtic:

1 green jobs: jobs supporting the solar, wind, biomass, hydro, hydrogen and fuel cell industries
answer 2 refer to answer 1
3 The less we use the more we have
4 Earnings of an unexpected nature and generally not due to the efforts and expenditures of the entity that benefits. The Crude Oil Windfall Profits Tax of 1980 placed a tax on such profits on the production and sale of crude oil. The windfall profits figure is derived from complex calculations defined in the code, based on the difference between selling price less state severance taxes and a defined base price.
5 Over Engagement in risky business transactions on the chance of quick or considerable profit and in the case of crude oil taking advantage of the knowledge of the American publics need for gasoline.
Answer to # 6 in the long term it will not, and I am sure it is a transient issue and stand based on need and price. Not a long term solution and not even Obama thinks it is.
7 Investing tax credits into the American automakers is to level the playing field that the Japanese have control over through the American's automakers inefficacies and lack of quality. That being said The country cannot allow them to fail...not pleasant but, truthful.
8.The wealthy as I would understand from the proposals involved would be those with $250,000.00 in adjusted gross income.
9. Ours has never been entirely a free market economy...Our government either Republican or Democrat has subsidized a number of industries from farms to bailing out industries in need.
Now as far issues go, would gladly discuss them and I am certainly not a McCain supporter!

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 10:59:23 AM   
Thadius


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Afternoon Mark,

Glad to see somebody willing to talk about those policies.

What is defined as a small business, to qualify for being exempt from the increase in capital gains and corporate taxes?
Which 5% of the working families will not be getting tax cuts, according to Obama's tax cuts for 95% of working families position?

I think both parties are for trying to use less oil, and move to alternatives.  Both parties even discuss moving more towards natural gas as a filler until we can get on renewables for 100% of our energy.  I am not sure that some folks actually understand how natural gas is found and harvested though... Just curious if you are in favor of increasing the natural gas production here at home?

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 11:11:42 AM   
popeye1250


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This also does not include the Obama World Poverty Act, which requires an addtional $845 BILLION in spending to go to the UN.  It is S.2433 and mandates 0.7% of the US GNP, along with a bunch of other fun stuff.  Take a look if you get a chance.

My simple question is, how are these things going to be paid for, as it is obvious that taxing the "wealthy" is not going to cover it?

The Obama World Poverty Act?
He wants to give the "U.N." $845 Billion "MORE" of *our money?*
The "poor" are getting very little of the "foreign aid" money now, it's eaten up by corporations, lobbyists and lawyers.
What about "The Poor" in this country?
And, many Americans want OUT of the "U.N." not to give them another dime of our money!
See? I've been saying that Obama is a *Global Socialist* and this proves it!
But what do people expect from the most Leftist senator in Washington?
It's not the job description of U.S. Taxpayers to "decrease poverty" in "the world!"
We need to END all this "foreign aid" nonsense once and for all!
The NY Times in 1999 I believe said that ,"under the Clinton Administration the "U.N." has ammassed a $30B "pension fund."
Does that mean that U.S. Taxpayers are paying for the PENSIONS of foreign "diplomats?
"Cum-bay-ah,.....Cum-bay-ah!"

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RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 11:12:59 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

1 green jobs: jobs supporting the solar, wind, biomass, hydro, hydrogen and fuel cell industries

But doing WHAT?  Are accountants, bookkeepers, IT personnel working in companies associated with those industries "green" workers while they are not "green" workers in other industries?  What makes a particular job "green"?

quote:

answer 2 refer to answer 1

That is not an answer.

quote:

3 The less we use the more we have

Untrue.  The less we use the more we have left.  If we use at any rate, necessarily we have less.  An energy source needs to leave us with more.

quote:

4 Earnings of an unexpected nature and generally not due to the efforts and expenditures of the entity that benefits.

Who decides what is and is not "due to the efforts and expenditures of the entity that benefits"?  I'll ignore the Windfall Profits Tax of 1980 as it was an unmitigated disaster, for Carter, for the oil industry, and for the US as a whole.

quote:

5 Over Engagement in risky business transactions on the chance of quick or considerable profit and in the case of crude oil taking advantage of the knowledge of the American publics need for gasoline.

Again....who decides what are "risky business transactions"?

quote:

Answer to # 6 in the long term it will not, and I am sure it is a transient issue and stand based on need and price. Not a long term solution and not even Obama thinks it is.

Then why does he present it as such?

quote:

7 Investing tax credits into the American automakers is to level the playing field that the Japanese have control over through the American's automakers inefficacies and lack of quality. That being said The country cannot allow them to fail...not pleasant but, truthful.

This does not answer the question.  Are targeted tax credits not a "special interest loophole"? If yes, then how does Obama square a loophole for automakers with a stated goal of getting rid of loopholes? If not, then what loopholes remain for Obama to "close"?

quote:

8.The wealthy as I would understand from the proposals involved would be those with $250,000.00 in adjusted gross income.

Can you show me in the plan where he commits to that figure?

quote:

9. Ours has never been entirely a free market economy...Our government either Republican or Democrat has subsidized a number of industries from farms to bailing out industries in need.

From Obama's website: "I believe that America's free market has been the engine of America's great progress."  The question stands:  how do Obama's proposals advance the free market he claims to advocate?



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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 11:18:35 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112


quote:

3 The less we use the more we have

Untrue.  The less we use the more we have left.  If we use at any rate, necessarily we have less.  An energy source needs to leave us with more.



.....ok, i see your first point. Assuming energy is a finite thing any useage leaves us with less. However, i'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence. Are you suggesting that an energy source has to be infinite?

i think the way you refined the posters original point is more correct. the trick is to  make better use of what we have. Clearly that will diminish the finite resource, but the rate of change is an important factor. Slowing it down buys time.......

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 11:22:48 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

However, i'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence. Are you suggesting that an energy source has to be infinite?

Hardly.  Merely that an "energy source" should increase the raw supply of potential energy resources. 

Energy efficiency, while quite laudable on its own merits, does not meet that requirement.  Slowing the rate of emptying the tank does not cause the level of the tank to rise.


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RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 11:29:22 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

However, i'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence. Are you suggesting that an energy source has to be infinite?

Hardly.  Merely that an "energy source" should increase the raw supply of potential energy resources. 

Energy efficiency, while quite laudable on its own merits, does not meet that requirement.  Slowing the rate of emptying the tank does not cause the level of the tank to rise.



...ah, i see. Effectively what you're suggesting is that the total amout of available energy has to rise. i quite agree. Where you and i may disagree is in the minutiae of how that process comes about. For myself, i think the sensible first steps, the change that can be made now is the sort of change that (in another thread of yours) i defined as personal. A town hall changes its lightbulbs to use less energy. An individual doesn't leave appliances on standby all the time. If stuck in traffic a car doesn't idle but tutrns off its engine. That sort of thing.
The other sort of change necessarily takes longer. Finding new sources of energy, exploiting them, etc.....
In the same sort of timescale that US conventional sources can be brought online, a whole rake of smaller personal changes could conceivably reduce reliance on fossil fuels by a similar amount. thus buying time for those alternative sources of energy like fusion, solar, geothermal, tidal, hydro etc to be developed.


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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 11:34:44 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


This also does not include the Obama World Poverty Act, which requires an addtional $845 BILLION in spending to go to the UN.  It is S.2433 and mandates 0.7% of the US GNP, along with a bunch of other fun stuff.  Take a look if you get a chance.

My simple question is, how are these things going to be paid for, as it is obvious that taxing the "wealthy" is not going to cover it?

The Obama World Poverty Act?
He wants to give the "U.N." $845 Billion "MORE" of *our money?*
The "poor" are getting very little of the "foreign aid" money now, it's eaten up by corporations, lobbyists and lawyers.
What about "The Poor" in this country?
And, many Americans want OUT of the "U.N." not to give them another dime of our money!
See? I've been saying that Obama is a *Global Socialist* and this proves it!
But what do people expect from the most Leftist senator in Washington?
It's not the job description of U.S. Taxpayers to "decrease poverty" in "the world!"
We need to END all this "foreign aid" nonsense once and for all!
The NY Times in 1999 I believe said that ,"under the Clinton Administration the "U.N." has ammassed a $30B "pension fund."
Does that mean that U.S. Taxpayers are paying for the PENSIONS of foreign "diplomats?
"Cum-bay-ah,.....Cum-bay-ah!"


Afternoon Popeye,

Is this the first you have heard about it?  It makes for interesting reading, and I recommend that everybdoy do a search and read it.

It might actually make some a bit happier, as it also allows the UN to decide what small arms are capable of being manufactured and sold here in the US.

http://www.aim.org/aim-column/obamas-global-tax-proposal-up-for-senate-vote/
http://obama.senate.gov/press/071211-obama_hagel_can/

quote:

"In addition to seeking to eradicate poverty, that declaration commits nations to banning 'small arms and light weapons' and ratifying a series of treaties, including the International Criminal Court Treaty, the Kyoto Protocol (global warming treaty), the Convention on Biological Diversity, the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, and the Convention on the Rights of the Child," he wrote.


I will let folks do their own research on this one, form your own opinions, and choose to embrace, ignore, or oppose it.

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RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 12:00:40 PM   
SilverMark


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The common business definition of "small business" is one with revenues of 6.5 million dollars and is an accepted definition. the 5% of working families issue I am not sure of as of yet the 250k to me doesn't seem to be working class. Undoubtedly I will not qualify I never seem to qualify for tax cuts from Democrats or Republican.

As for celtic...you may not like that there are answers and the answers may not fit what you wish but, they are indeed answers.  I would think that on the green collar issues that yes, the accountants and I T people involved with those industries would also be considered as such. The $250,000.00 comes from Obama's own material. You think that just because someone disagrees with your Neo-Con philosophy that you can just say "that's not an answer" come now,we both know better.
I do not know who's definition of "excessive" profits would be used but, if you think that Exxon as an a example should be able to make 100's of billions off the backs of the American public I certainly hope you own a bike.
You and I are both bright enough to know there is nothing in tax legislation that doesn't present a bright attorney a loophole to find. Lord knows I am always trying to find a few Myself. In the case of the auto manufacturers, simply stated as a country and economic entity we cannot afford for the Big 3 to all close so, reallity rears its ugly head and we do need to help so, one loophole closes and another is opened but give Obama credit for at least stating a plan. Couldn't find one for McCain on the issue...perhaps you can enlighten Me?
As for the oil reserves, personally I do not think they should be released there isn't enough to make a difference I think on that issue he is incorrect....My opinion not his...I will never agree 100% with anyone....and certainly not a politician....out of curiosity do you?

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RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 12:06:01 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

You think that just because someone disagrees with your Neo-Con philosophy that you can just say "that's not an answer" come now,we both know better.

No, I say something is not an answer when it does not address the question asked.


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RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 12:09:18 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

I do not know who's definition of "excessive" profits would be used but, if you think that Exxon as an a example should be able to make 100's of billions off the backs of the American public I certainly hope you own a bike.

What shenanigans did Exxon use to make hundreds of billions off the backs of the American public?

How did they cause the price of oil to spike?

And if you don't know what "excessive" is, how do you know that Exxon's profits are "excessive"?


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RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 12:09:31 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

The common business definition of "small business" is one with revenues of 6.5 million dollars and is an accepted definition. the 5% of working families issue I am not sure of as of yet the 250k to me doesn't seem to be working class. Undoubtedly I will not qualify I never seem to qualify for tax cuts from Democrats or Republican.



See that is what concerns me, he talks about both definitions in different degrees and in different terms.  Therefore, a small business owner that is an unincorporated sole proprietor that makes between 250k and 500k is going to get slammed.  Then add in the possibility that he has 5 or more employees and some of the other proposals affecting such, and I have to wonder how this is going to be good for growth and job creation.

Know what I mean?  It isn't bad enough that the AMT already hurts, he is going to poor salt in the wound.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 12:17:38 PM   
NumberSix


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The five percent comprises the top two tax brackets in the individual tax code.

6.5 or less is small business, he aint gonna just kick 6.6 in the nuts, drop a couple layers, and then kick 250 to 500k in the nuts.

And think about it.   If Exxon, or Chrysler, or Bear Stearns or the Drug companies left the US who would give a fuck? They aint dumping large shit back into the economy, and we gotta bail them out alla time, or pay for them. Not me.

Small business is where the jobs and innovation are.  Always was, always will be.

Ron 


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"The new Number Two."
"Who is Number One?"
"You are Number Six.".
"I am not a number — I am a free man!"

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 12:36:47 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NumberSix

The five percent comprises the top two tax brackets in the individual tax code.

6.5 or less is small business, he aint gonna just kick 6.6 in the nuts, drop a couple layers, and then kick 250 to 500k in the nuts.

And think about it.   If Exxon, or Chrysler, or Bear Stearns or the Drug companies left the US who would give a fuck? They aint dumping large shit back into the economy, and we gotta bail them out alla time, or pay for them. Not me.

Small business is where the jobs and innovation are.  Always was, always will be.

Ron 



I agree that small business is where jobs are created.  Are you suggesting then that the top 2 tax brackets are included in the statement of tax breaks for 95% of working families?  Raising corporate taxes, and taxes on investments (you know capital gains and dividends) seems to make me believe less capital is going to be put into the market for job creation.

Exxon actually has increased their numbers of employees since the '90s and has innovated some pretty cool shit in terms of conservation.  Sure they ain't preachin it like the green peace warriors that are out running around in a ship burnin fuel to make a statement, but hell not everybody can be perfect.  

In the interest of disclosure, I am an investor and stock holder.  Sort of like we all are in this country, eh?  Aren't we all shareholders of the US, and there is a vote comin up to determine the CEO, and his ideas for investment and mission statements are a tad disturbing.

Then again I like keepin my money, and don't think that just because it has the name of the country on it, that it belongs to the fat cats in DC.  Hell what do I know he could easily just sit back and decide to say "Ah fuck I was just kidding, all that spending and shit were empty promises, and there is no way in hell I am going to tax myself and friend".

Who knows?

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 12:49:40 PM   
NumberSix


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I don't think if I read that right that I am saying any such a thing.

There is a vast difference in the treatment of individual taxes, and corporate taxes.

In fact, corporations are treated as individuals with no responsibilites when that treatment is favorable to them and as companies when that treatment is favorable to them.

Are you suggesting then that the top 2 tax brackets are included in the statement of tax breaks for 95% of working families?  No, the math is that is where the 5% don't get further tax breaks.


The thing at issue mostly concerns multinational companies, who dont invest money here as far as the capital gains thingies go.


For example, Thadius-es-es-es Bike Shop, gets a break.  Exxon doesnt get so much of a break, since they shift their profits to other countries to avoid taxes (as we all do) but Thadius-es-es can't actually bank in Botswana on any given day.

The point being, if we look at the speculation in two recent examples where somebody made a fuckin pile of money........

Where did the money from the houses go?  Where did the money from the oil profits go?  How come banks are hurting?  How come the money is not here....

So, I will disagree that the money machine invests in american infrastructure.
No evidence of that I can see.  

_____________________________

"Who are you?"
"The new Number Two."
"Who is Number One?"
"You are Number Six.".
"I am not a number — I am a free man!"

Be seeing you...

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 12:52:10 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius: I simply ask that it doesn't turn into the typical name calling flame fest,  if that is the only thing you are going to include in your post, you might as well keep it to yourself.  .
This forum doesn't have any real flames. Oh, OK, the occasional Spelling/grammar remark or very mild insult, but nothing that would make me anticipate the next shot.   The now-defunct Flame-on had some great ones.

At any rate, the candidates have been picked, the ballots are being printed, folks have pretty much picked who they are voting for, and nobody is going to change anyone's mind by chanting "Obama No Experience" a million times.

Now, discussing issues and positions, as you are attempting to do here, is laudable. I know what my positions are, but I have only rarely had the occasion to articulate them. I'll have to give some thought as to how I might best word them.

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RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. - 8/31/2008 12:52:50 PM   
SilverWulf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark
I do not know who's definition of "excessive" profits would be used but, if you think that Exxon as an a example should be able to make 100's of billions off the backs of the American public I certainly hope you own a bike.


Looking at a company profit and focusing on the dollar amount is misleading at best.

What needs to be looked at is the profit margin of a company.  How much profit does a company make for each dollar of revenue.

ExxonMobil 9.1%
Microsoft 30.7%
CitiGroup 29.4%
Dreamworks 22.6%
Toyota 6.3%
Google 25%
Proctor and Gamble 15%
Spectrum Pharmaceuticals 51%

and just for fun:
Quepasa Corp... a bilingual hispanic networking and dating service based in Scottsdale, AZ, founded in 1997

8928%



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Profile   Post #: 40
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