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RE: Barry's big flip - 9/1/2008 2:43:38 PM

Sanity

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Biden's speech at the DNC convention also hinted at a coming war against China, Russia and Pakistan, if Obama is elected.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Quick reminder....there`s

Barry Out-o-Iraq....

Actually, O59, he is now Barry Out-o-Iraq eventually, and right into Afghanistan and Pakistan. Haven't the Dem's gotten the updated talking points out yet?

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RE: Barry's big flip - 9/1/2008 5:55:31 PM

cloudboy

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This is a pretty stupid and unsophisticated post. All politicians must moderate their positions to reflect changing times and circumstances. The situation in IRAQ has changed for the better, largely because BUSH finally fired Rumsfeldt in 2006 and installed new leadership to initiate a change of tactics there. (We can only pipedream about how the invasion might have gone had Rumsfeldt and Cheney not had their fingerprints on it.)

Just what exactly is a US politician supposed to do about IRAQ?

James Fallows addressed the idiocy of pledge questions in his latest article about the Obama-Hillary debates,

Here is my list of the Five Questions That Should Never Be Asked, with illustrations and reasons why they're wrong:

1. The will you pledge tonight question, which is always about something no responsible politician could ever flat-out promise to do. For instance, a question to Barack Obama: “Will you pledge that by January 2013, the end of your first term more than five years from now, there will be no U.S. troops in Iraq?” Obama’s reply was the only realistic one: “It’s hard to project four years from now, and I think it would be irresponsible. We don’t know what contingency will be out there.” Hillary Clinton got the same question and gave a similar answer: “I agree with Barack. It is very difficult to know what we’re going to be inheriting. You know, we do not know, walking into the White House in January 2009, what we’re going to find.” The questioner looked as if these were witnesses evading a question. In fact, if they’d said anything different, they’d be indicating that they were too doctrinaire for the job. But that didn’t get Clinton off the hook. “Would you pledge to the American people that Iran will not develop a nuclear bomb while you are president?” she was asked at another debate. She replied, “I intend to do everything I can to prevent Iran from developing a nuclear bomb,” to which the follow-up was: “But you won’t pledge?” Then to Senator Joseph Biden: “Would you pledge to the American people that Iran would not build a nuclear bomb on your watch?” Biden’s reply: “I would pledge to keep us safe.” Taking a pledge would mean news for the show but would either handcuff the politician if elected or create a flip-flop trap later on.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 9/1/2008 6:01:40 PM >

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RE: Barry's big flip - 9/1/2008 6:13:47 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

This is a pretty stupid and unsophisticated post.

Sorry to hear you feel that way, Clouds. But then, I find most of the people most affected by the moderation in his new verbiage could be described the same way.

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RE: Barry's big flip - 9/1/2008 6:25:41 PM

Owner59

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Nope nope nope ...

Staying in Iraq indefinitely .......stupid ...as are it`s proponents.

Getting out of Iraq...... smart and responsible.As are it`s proponents....

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RE: Barry's big flip - 9/1/2008 7:14:00 PM

cloudboy

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quote:

Sorry to hear you feel that way, Clouds. But then, I find most of the people most affected by the moderation in his new verbiage could be described the same way.

Not quite up for the challenge, I see. Running around playing "gotcha" with "the flip-flop" questions years apart is juvenile. It was during the Democratic debates held months ago that Obama altered his position, yet you raise the issue like its today's news.

Pssst: asked, answered, and decided.

"The anti-war crowd," as you've called'em, was shut out: neither Hillary, Obama, or McCain was advocating for withdrawal during the advanced stages of the nomination process.

So, we're all stuck with this TRILLION DOLLAR sink hole. Pass the kuzos, let's celebrate. Better yet, let's reward the Republicans who delivered us this mess by giving them the White House for another four years. Let's give Communist China another Trillion in Debt to hold as we war monger up another "cold war" with Russia.

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RE: Barry's big flip - 9/1/2008 8:32:22 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

It was during the Democratic debates held months ago that Obama altered his position,

That was when he started acknowledging reality, this was a platform nail in the coffin of the whole promise. I do appreciate your thoughts on it though. The wound obviously does ache for a good long time.

Have a nice night.

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RE: Barry's big flip - 9/1/2008 8:40:35 PM

Owner59

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But you operate like,think with and see the world through the neo-cons perspective,harry.

No wonder you can`t fathom that someone might actually be sincere.

Barry will gladly prove you wrong.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 9/1/2008 8:41:12 PM >

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RE: Barry's big flip - 9/1/2008 8:54:02 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
But you operate like,think with and see the world through the neo-cons perspective,harry.

Last time I checked, O59, I'm out to the left of your guy on both abortion and gay rights. How does that fit into your proposed model of my thinking?

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RE: Barry's big flip - 9/1/2008 10:01:40 PM

Vendaval

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

I do not have a problem with the word "responsibly" be added into the conversation. I never wanted the War in Iraq but also realize that the troops will have to be brought back home in stages lest the situation explodes again.

           Exactly, Ven, and that's why the word had to go in. Out in true believer land, there are a lot of people who still don't really get that though.

Idealism vrs realism...that's a whole other type of thread....

        Would it have been a problem for you if he had said our exit stategy is victory? If he intends to expand the war in Afghanistan, a perceived retreat in Iraq is suicide. Since he could be our next President, I hope like hell somebody makes this clear to him.

First we would have to have his future cabinet and the Pentagon and the Joint Chiefs of Staff all agreeing on what constitutes victory. I think that Senator Obama is a very thorough and thoughtful man who will choose his advisors wisely and make careful decisions after consulting them for their expertise.

      We are stuck in Afghanistan as well, but the circumstances that brought us there create a lot more latitude in how we play it, and just how obligated we are. I think we need a very different strategy to deal with the Taliban. Except for a couple divisions of Marines to guard the embassy and airport, I'd like to pull every conventional troop out. Special forces, UAV's, and death from above.

Certainly the strategies for dealing with the Taliban in Afghanistan need to be continuiously re-evaluated due to changes both in the physical fight and in the idealogical one.

One thing is certain in this era, change will come hard and fast and strike without warning. You best be fast on your feet and prepared to roll with the punches and know when to stand your ground and when to retreat.

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