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RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/1/2008 9:30:11 PM   
LittleWench


Posts: 265
Joined: 11/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

I’m not quite sure what you hope to accomplish by starting a new thread that reiterates your stance on brattiness. 


If you think that is what this post is about then you missed the point entirely.  In fact a lot of the responses have, so don't feel alone.  Nothing in my post refers to a power struggle, or brattiness at any point.  This is the closest to the mark...

quote:

I think this is a case of trying to stretch the meaning of the word 'dominant'. What I'm getting here is the OP when he refers to the submissive being the dominant force is referring to self-discipline and self-control.


Oh BTW for all of you that think it is about a power struggle, testing the dom, about being bratty blah blah blah... how would I test a dom?  This would happen at the first meeting:-
Me:  Think you have what it takes to slap me in the face?
Dom: *whack*
Me: Satisfied

For all you who think that I feel that testing a dom needs to go beyond that, you are reading what you want to read... I simply want to find out if a man is capable of acting upon what he claims he will before entering into a submissive relationship with him.  That is fairly quickly established, yes?  OK now that we have that clarified, that was not what this post was about!

This was good...

quote:

I can only say that I know who's dominant in the relationship because I've fucked up... I'm human.


OK solid proof that your Dom can be dominant.  As was this...

quote:

For me, I would say it is still Master who is dominant in such a scenario because I don't have "the need to be odedient" to anyone else in the ways I am to Him.  I don't "punish" myself, "push" myself and "strive" to be such to anyone else but Him.


Identifying factors that make Dom/me the dominant without having to push his triggers.  But that is love as I read it, and what wouldn't we do for love :)

In a D/s relationship where there is no love between the sub and Dom, and the sub does nothing but obey given commands, is that not just a relationship of convenience for both where the Sub is the dominant force within their own dynamic, pleasing and obeying because it's what they are driving themselves to do?

There's another thread atm about what was the hardest factor for new subs, and hands down the most common answer was "being my own harshest critic", and also along the lines of "learning not to beat myself up for disappointing my Dom/me, only to learn I hadn't".  These are shining examples of subs who are "dominating themselves" with their own behaviours and thought patterns.

Online submissives are another good example.  It's incredibly easy to fake your tasks, lie about what you have or have not done, there's nobody there to watch over you... so in that example who really is the dominant?


< Message edited by LittleWench -- 9/1/2008 9:50:56 PM >

(in reply to catize)
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RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/1/2008 9:46:26 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench
Oh BTW for all of you that think it is about a power struggle, testing the dom, about being bratty blah blah blah... how would I test a dom?  This would happen at the first meeting:-
Me:  Think you have what it takes to slap me in the face?
Dom: *whack*
Me: Satisfied

For me that just sounds like performance on command.

You:  Think you have what it takes to slap me in the face?
Me:  Yes.

What would you do then?  If you do not believe I know myself, if you do not believe I will show you in my own good time and way how I am dominant, if you do not trust my answers as given- then it's best you walk away.  But do not on your life in any way believe that your unhappiness with my response shows any less dominance on my part.

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(in reply to LittleWench)
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RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/1/2008 9:47:39 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench
In a D/s relationship where there is no love between the sub and Dom, and the sub does nothing but obey given commands, is that not just a relationship of convenience for both where the Sub is the dominant force within their own dynamic, pleasing and obeying because it's what they are driving themselves to do?

How is that different than your relationship?  We are all mutually fulfilled in our dynamics of choice.  The HOW of it is just personal preference. 

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RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/1/2008 10:00:30 PM   
Emperor1956


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Joined: 11/7/2005
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quote:

The OP:  isn't that self regulation?  Isn't that pushing yourself to be pleasing and obedient, rather than your dominant?  There's nothing wrong with that, pushing yourself to achieve perfection or to be pleasing, but who is the dominant in that situation?  The submissive who has the need to be obedient, is constantly the one punishing themselves, pushing themselves and striving to be such, or the person who simply gave a directive expecting it to be obeyed?


Why is "self-regulation" inconsistent with a Dominant being the moving force in a submissive's life?  Your questions seem to posit an "either/or".  In fact, I like the idea that My presence, expectations and "essence" set up a situation where she conducts herself as I want, without My needed to micromanage her.  My little girl is incredibly smart, incredibly eager to please Me, and absolutely able to take actions and make decisions in her life within the parameters we've set up.  If I feel she's taking too much liberty, or even straying close to those borders, I've found that all I need to do is make a gentle correction (verbal, so far -- no punishment) to set her back on course.  And I find that I like the median path -- I've had girls on both sides of the middle -- those who tested Me, and needed constant attention to keep in line, and those who were so totally submissive that even a simple question about a preference set her into a panicky spin.  The first type are exhausting, and after a while I got the feeling that the game was to push Me to react to her constant testing and cheating, rather than to keep the relationship moving forward.  The second was also exhausting.  If "paper or plastic?" causes you to shut down and not be able to reply, I'd suggest that you need a shrink MORE than you need a Dominant...or at least THIS Dominant.

In this regard, I think of Myself as "the watchmaker" in the Cartesian analogy of "God the Watchmaker" explaining how the universe was created and runs.  And, yes, the "God" reference is intentional.  You got a problem with that?

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

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RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/1/2008 10:03:54 PM   
LittleWench


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
What would you do then?  If you do not believe I know myself, if you do not believe I will show you in my own good time and way how I am dominant, if you do not trust my answers as given- then it's best you walk away.  But do not on your life in any way believe that your unhappiness with my response shows any less dominance on my part.


After 20yrs of relationships that ultimately ended in disappointment because I took on faith answers like those you would have given, I don't believe anyone is who they say.  Actions speak louder than words.  If your response was as given above I would happily walk away.  We all have parameters by which we choose our potential partners, that's simply one of mine.

quote:

How is that different than your relationship?  We are all mutually fulfilled in our dynamics of choice.  The HOW of it is just personal preference. 


My relationship albeit rather quirky and different to most D/s relationships, is one where we are mutually fulfilled in our chosen dynamic, so in that sense it isn't different.  But that wasn't the source of my curiosity, I am not asking about whether these relationships are fulfilling for both parties involved, I assume that they are.

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RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/1/2008 10:10:34 PM   
LittleWench


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quote:

Why is "self-regulation" inconsistent with a Dominant being the moving force in a submissive's life? Your questions seem to posit an "either/or".


They are not mutually exclusive, self control in any sub is desireable and necessary for the D/s dynamic to work and flourish, but when it's the only form of control?

(in reply to Emperor1956)
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RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/1/2008 10:51:31 PM   
babygurlrides


Posts: 90
Joined: 8/13/2008
Status: offline 		God...it must be late.... I am lost with this one

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RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/1/2008 10:59:58 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:


After 20yrs of relationships that ultimately ended in disappointment because I took on faith answers like those you would have given, I don't believe anyone is who they say.  Actions speak louder than words.  If your response was as given above I would happily walk away.  We all have parameters by which we choose our potential partners, that's simply one of mine.

Exactly.

But I never suggested someone should go on faith- time and experience together with me would clearly state that:

a) I know who I am and what I am capable of pretty well, and far better than most people
b) I will act upon and be aggressive in my dominance at the times I feel appropriate
c) I will answer questions honestly, and when unsure I will state so

If you are unwilling to allow time and experience to show myself as I am and to have trust in REALITY (not faith on ideas), then you will know all of these things before you ever even think to ask a question like "Can you slap me?"  The question nearly answers itself.

Again, there may be an issue of compatibility- my management and methods of dominance may not work well for you, my aggression may simply not be on the level that makes your submission happiest and most fulfilled.

But you keep seeming to suggest that if I don't perform for you in the way you like at the time you like, then that's not dominance at all.  Not just that it doesn't work for you, but that no one could interpret that to be dominance.

quote:

My relationship albeit rather quirky and different to most D/s relationships, is one where we are mutually fulfilled in our chosen dynamic, so in that sense it isn't different.  But that wasn't the source of my curiosity, I am not asking about whether these relationships are fulfilling for both parties involved, I assume that they are.

So you have lots of people saying "Yes, she wants to obey, so she obeys, I want to have authority and I tell her what to do, that's dominance and submission." but you are asking the question "How is that dominance and submission?"

From my perspective your submission requires a dominant to perform at your command, that you demand specific expressions of dominance in specific ways in a very short time frame or you will simply cross them off as "not dominant at all."  A very convenient way for you to always get what you want and never actually admit you compatible with that sort of dominance.

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RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/1/2008 11:01:09 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench
They are not mutually exclusive, self control in any sub is desireable and necessary for the D/s dynamic to work and flourish, but when it's the only form of control?

Unless you are talking about brute force, all form of control IS self control.  Ds isn't about control, it's about authority.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/1/2008 11:23:12 PM   
LittleWench


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Joined: 11/27/2007
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quote:

But you keep seeming to suggest that if I don't perform for you in the way you like at the time you like, then that's not dominance at all.  Not just that it doesn't work for you, but that no one could interpret that to be dominance.


But that is not at all what I am intending to suggest.  I know you're intelligent so I can only put it down to my failure to communicate.  It's not domination on demand.  If upon meeting I was to explain my past history, explain why I wanted to see first hand before making any decision to embark upon a relationship, you were still unwilling to do so, then yes I would cross you off my list.... I wouldn't label you as "non-dominant", indeed its very dominant to deny my request.  But if after giving my reasons you are not able to allay my initial doubts, its certainly not going to work, so why bother continuing?

quote:

From my perspective your submission requires a dominant to perform at your command, that you demand specific expressions of dominance in specific ways in a very short time frame or you will simply cross them off as "not dominant at all."


Not at all, and I don't know how I can explain it other than I already have.  We are talking about two completely different things.  Your statement applies to a power struggle in an ongoing, long term relationship... mine applies to the steps taken before even making the decision to submit.  Very different circumstances, and not relevant to the OP.

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RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/1/2008 11:36:38 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench
Not at all, and I don't know how I can explain it other than I already have.  We are talking about two completely different things.  Your statement applies to a power struggle in an ongoing, long term relationship... mine applies to the steps taken before even making the decision to submit.  Very different circumstances, and not relevant to the OP.


The problem seems to be total lack of good communication little wench.  I have come into the thread late, but reading it from start to finish, the whole thing has 'altered'.  Your initial post never set out your mindset was before making the decision to submit, which is why you have the responses that you do.

quote:

How do you know if a Dom/me is actually capable of being dominant without having that reinforced?  Sure you meet, you are compatible, he tells you to do something, you do it.  That's compatability, not dominance and submission.  You're told to do something, and you do it, because you want to, because it's mutually beneficial to do so.

 
I don't know who posted this, but I don't agree with it entirely.  You don't do something because you want to, you do it because you are instructed.  The idea is great that it is mutually beneficial, but it isn't always nor should it just be expected unless you have discussed that as a core reason for your relationship.
 
quote:

 Isn't that pushing yourself to be pleasing and obedient, rather than your dominant?  There's nothing wrong with that, pushing yourself to achieve perfection or to be pleasing, but who is the dominant in that situation?  The submissive who has the need to be obedient, is constantly the one punishing themselves, pushing themselves and striving to be such, or the person who simply gave a directive expecting it to be obeyed?


No, that is self control.  Self regulation, or regulation of any kind doesn't define the orientation.  Ds isn't about control, it is about authority.

the.dark.


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RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/2/2008 12:19:50 AM   
aravain


Posts: 1211
Joined: 8/26/2008
Status: offline 		I'm seeing two points being said back and forth right now...

One:

How do you know the person will be dominant and able to live up to their self-hype when you meet them?

and
Two:

By the time you're starting a relationship you'll know.

These are two different points...

LittleWench is, I believe, talking about that *first in-person meeting* with someone, for instance, from here. It's assuming that the only reason you're meeting at all is to embark on a relationship, and she wants to know, ahead of time, if they'll be able to do what they say they will. It's also assuming that you don't know each other well enough to judge based on previous knowledge whether or not they're telling the truth.

LuckyAlbatross is saying that a sub will know a dominant is... well, a dominant because they will know them well enough *before* they start a relationship. I believe it's a theory that you're going to meet with the person multiple times and not even start a committment of any type until *after* you know each other relatively well.

Both of you feel free to correct me if I'm wrong :) But does it make sense where the verbal (textual?) disconnect is coming from?

(in reply to RCdc)
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RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/2/2008 1:17:25 AM   
LittleWench


Posts: 265
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
The problem seems to be total lack of good communication little wench.  I have come into the thread late, but reading it from start to finish, the whole thing has 'altered'.  Your initial post never set out your mindset was before making the decision to submit, which is why you have the responses that you do.


Seems no matter what I do I can't seem to keep this thread on topic :(

It's not about me, my relationships, my submission, the hoops I may or may not be prepared to go through myself, or ask my potential Dom to go through.  None of that (to me) is relevant, however it does seem to be what is of the most interest.

I have been exploring my submissive side for 3 yrs.  18 months ago I started a vanilla relationship with a very dominant male, 12 months ago we discussed shifting our relationship to D/s, two weeks ago we started a 24/7 real time physical relationship.  There are things occuring in our dynamic because its new, we are both testing the waters, testing our boundaries, finding out what's right, what can stay, what needs to go.  I dunno, maybe this personal history will provide the motivation and background as to why I am asking the question so people don't feel so threatened and need to attack.

I am curious about ALL types of D/s dynamics.  I know what is working in mine so far, its obviously not what works in others, and because its new to me, I am not always seeing why a dynamic works... doesn't mean they don't work or that I think they are flawed or wrong... I am just trying to understand how they do work.

I am a mother to 3.  My um's know if they misbehave they get a punishment, unlike my neighbours who threatens to punish them all the time but never actually follows through no matter how disobedient they are, its an empty threat.  There is no control, nor authority there at all, despite all her hot air.  Go ahead and call me childish if you like, I don't care, my submission is in it's infancy so like a child there are things I am going to want to try for myself, not just take on faith.

(in reply to RCdc)
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RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/2/2008 2:21:08 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Why would anyone call you childish?
 
I get what you are saying.  I get it's not all about you.  What you seem to be failing to grasp is that people have said what their relationship s to them, and although you are stating you - in your own words -
quote:

 
I am curious about ALL types of D/s dynamics.  I know what is working in mine so far, its obviously not what works in others, and because its new to me, I am not always seeing why a dynamic works... doesn't mean they don't work or that I think they are flawed or wrong... I am just trying to understand how they do work.


Despite say that, you are not listening and instead, rebutting that it isn't all about you and you want to learn.
My question to you is - can you not see that some people are explaining that Ds is not about power or control and who disciplines when or punishes, but its about a transfere of authority?
If we take aravains two questions - then the answers have been given based on personal dynamics - but I don't believe you are seeing the answers.
 
the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/2/2008 3:30:08 AM   
LittleWench


Posts: 265
Joined: 11/27/2007
Status: offline 		I am asking the question based upon this statement I am not always seeing why a dynamic works and yes I am getting answers, but I'm seeking more than "it just is" or "I feel it"... it was those responses which led to the initial question... which was... without testing that the authority is there, how can you know it is?  I am not rebutting or shutting down every single response, rather questioning those esoteric feeling ones that suggest it just is.  I want to know why it just is, because for me it isn't.

Someone wrote they do because they love, excellent, I hadn't put it in that context before.  I would be submissive whether or not I was in love, I am just lucky enough to be in love with my dominant.  Another wrote they do because they have fucked up and felt the consequences, another good one, the most basic example of authority/control/discipline/consequence.

But I do see what you are saying I think, for some, once you transfer the authority you don't need to test that it's there.

This question isn't really all that different to another I posed to subs asking if they feared their dominant in edge play, whether they felt their dominant could cause them grevious bodily harm, and why did they fear this unless they had absolute knowledge their dominant was capable of that.  I don't see this question is all that different.  Unless you have absolute first hand knowledge of your dominant's capabilities to exert his authority, how do you actually know he is capable of doing so, and if you don't know, where then does the drive to continue to submit come from.

(in reply to RCdc)
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RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/2/2008 4:12:12 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench
This question isn't really all that different to another I posed to subs asking if they feared their dominant in edge play, whether they felt their dominant could cause them grevious bodily harm, and why did they fear this unless they had absolute knowledge their dominant was capable of that.  I don't see this question is all that different.  Unless you have absolute first hand knowledge of your dominant's capabilities to exert his authority, how do you actually know he is capable of doing so, and if you don't know, where then does the drive to continue to submit come from.



I believe it comes down to patience and external experience.  If someone says - for example - my favourite colour is black, yet never wears it, then I would question their statement.  For me, when I met Darcy, I had no idea if anything he stated was true.  Obviously, over time, I have seen his words in action, but they don't always have to be for my benefit(if that makes any sense).  So if what he says is true in all arenas I have seen then it is pretty much a conclussion that he will act on his words.  In other words, someone who is a flip flop, isn't going to instil consistance nor power the drive for someone to submit to them.
 
You used the example of discipline.  As a parent, if I say, I am making roast for dinner, I make a roast.  If I say, I will run a bath in 20 mins, I do that.  Then, if I say that if there is misbehaviour, there will be grounding, then they know I will follow through.  You don't have to actually discipline for the understanding to be there that it will happen if there is consistancy in other areas of life.
 
the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/2/2008 4:35:10 AM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		I think that you are confusing showing dominance with punishment.  A Dom does not need to punish to show his dominance.  There are many other more worthy signs, such as having total control of himself (never losing his temper unnecessarily, keeping himself clean, never trying to have a session in a drug or alcohol impaired state, having a goal in mind before he starts, etc.) and truly caring about the fulfillment of the partner.  He will show skills in what he does both physically and mentally. 

I have no problem showing submission to a man like that (and I'm using that gender only because it was the one brought up, not because Dommes aren't as expert).  I FEEL his dominance in the way he behaves himself without ever having to test whether he will punish me.  Some people enjoy punishment, I don't.  I have been punished only once and I deserved it.  I was much more impressed that once the punishment was over that my actions were no longer held against me - the slate was wiped clean.  To me that is much more proof of a true dominant nature.

If it takes being punished for you to believe that your Dom cares about you, go for it.  If you feel that it is the only way that he can truly be dominant than I think that you don't truly understand the lifestyle dynamic.


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RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/2/2008 4:45:16 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

If it takes being punished for you to believe that your Dom cares about you, go for it.  If you feel that it is the only way that he can truly be dominant than I think that you don't truly understand the lifestyle dynamic.



While I do not entirely agree with the above statement, it did place a thought in my head to ask a question which may be enlightening (ymmv)
 
Little wench.  How do you define BDSM?  The actual acronym itself?
 
the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/2/2008 4:45:21 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		In my M/s relationship it doesn't matter.  What matters is focus. Whether I cook dinner or participate in a bondage session, the only thing that matters is where my focus lies.  As long as my focus is on Him and what He wants/needs then what does it matter if I am exercising self-regulation?  My Master doesn't have to prove anything to me because it's not about me. 

Maybe I'm weird.  I've found that when I focus on myself and what makes me happy, I really just end up becoming anxious.  For example, I need to get a job and that hasn't happened yet.  If I internalize it any more I'll become an emotional wreck.  By changing my focus away from myself, I can continue my job hunt without the anxiety.  Another example is road rage.  That other driver didn't cut ME off, it wasn't personal and there's no reason for me to get upset because the other driver's actions had nothing whatsoever to do with me personally.

I recognize my Master's authority and I chose to submit to that authority, that is consent.  I don't need to test that authority, or question it, it simply is.  Whenever I feel anxious or conflicted, it's my cue to check my focus.  That I adjust my focus is hardly making me the Dominant one.

Don't know if any of that made sense.

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(in reply to LittleWench)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Submissives, are you the dominant force in your life? - 9/2/2008 4:47:01 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Bank robbery is illegal and the punishment for doing so is incarceration. Do you have to actually rob a bank in order for the police officer to prove to you that he has the authority to do so?

As for your "slap me" example. If he does slap you that slap could indicate dominance, that slap could indicate that he is a puppet who will jump when you say so....or that slap could indicate that he is an abusive prick who just found his mark.

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~erin~

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(in reply to LittleWench)
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