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Communication vs. being right. - 9/1/2008 6:09:50 PM   
leadership527


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OK, so I was reading the thread in the "Ask a Sub" forum about "What does 24/7 mean to you?" I got to wondering if there isn't something fundamentally wrong with this thread (and, for that matter, all the other ones just like it). And, yes, I'm definitely guilty of this.

All of the posters seem very passionate and focused on binding their particular concept to the word? Why? The point of words, as I understood it, was to communicate concepts. I was pondering this as it relates to the word "slave" and my wife. I could describe her in several different ways, for example:

My 24/7, Live-in Slave
: This description would convey a reasonably accurate view of the authority dynamic. But overall, would convey an extremely inaccurate view. Those who would understand the word "slave" at all, would also attach to it visions of a wide variety of BDSM practices that we just don't do. There'd also be a lot of thematic color in their heads that would be incorrect.

My wife who believes in "love, honor, and obey":
This description would convey the reasonably vanilla nature of our day to day marriage including the fact that my wife is obedient to me. Any listener would likely severely underestimate the full extent of the word "obey" but would otherwise get a pretty clear view.

When speaking to a mixed audience, I can just be more specific...
We participate in live-in, married, full authority transfer relationship sans kink.

OK, so this isn't going to be a huge news flash for anyone here. Most of us consider ourselves pretty good at communication. I can't be the first one to have this thought, I'm just having it right now so I thought I'd write it...

If I would focus more on what my listener was likely to hear and less on what words I particularly wanted to use, then communication would be better served.

Conversely, when someone else uses a word choice that leaves me confused (eg: a usage of the word slave that, to me, contradicts with other parts of whatever they said), then rather than saying, "That's not a slave, that's a peach." I could instead say something like, "I'm a bit unclear then on the details of your relationship. Can you elaborate on what you mean by slave?" Which would get the conversation back on track with no judgement involved.

So this is my new resolution... to care more about the listener than myself... To care more about communication than words... In general, to stop wasting my time and other people's with debates that not only are not resolvable due to the lack of a canonical source, but also dont' really serve any purpose beyond that of debate. It's easy enough to communicate the correct concepts with just a tiny bit of extra thinking.

*laughs*  Now you'll all get to see how well I do at that.


_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael
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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/1/2008 6:25:21 PM   
angelslave77


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I get what your saying and my thought is quite often much of whats argued on here is semantics nothing more nothing less. My undertanding of a word or concept is dfferent to somone elses and like you say if we took the time to understand each others meaning or to commuinicate them better some conflict would be saved.

BUT
there will always be the "my way is the only way" types who dont care about meaning or other peoples thoughts, if it is typed said or  done exactly to thier specifications  then it is just WRONG WROG WRONG

(I do hope I got the general gist of your post here and didnt mis read it completely)

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/1/2008 6:55:46 PM   
leadership527


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No angel.. you read it correctly and thank you for your response.  I have a different "new resolve" for the "one twu way" folks.  Collarme has this really nifty "hide" button and I've been making good use of it recently. Clearly, a post like mine is only going to serve as a reminder to people that already think that way.  Honestly, it's unlikely to accomplish anything at all, but it made me feel better posting it and hey, 1's and 0's are cheap *laughs*

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/1/2008 7:30:10 PM   
Jeffff


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While I appreciate your thoughts and resolve. What about sport arguing? I have read many of your posts and even if your name is Jeff, they are still mostly well thought out.
When people Belive something passionately it can and does get ugly,. In order to care about the listener should we not have the thought that the listener hos or her self cares about themselves.

These are just some random thoughts form a rather medicated ,
Jeff



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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 3:51:02 AM   
LaTigresse


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It is perhaps unfortunate that you feel the need to "hide" people from your view. I have found that I tend to learn the most from the people that annoy me the most. Except, of course, stupid people. They are just comedic entertainment.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 9/2/2008 3:52:57 AM >


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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 4:07:10 AM   
persephonee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527


If I would focus more on what my listener was likely to hear and less on what words I particularly wanted to use, then communication would be better served.


So this is my new resolution... to care more about the listener than myself... To care more about communication than words... In general, to stop wasting my time and other people's with debates that not only are not resolvable due to the lack of a canonical source, but also dont' really serve any purpose beyond that of debate. It's easy enough to communicate the correct concepts with just a tiny bit of extra thinking.

*laughs*  Now you'll all get to see how well I do at that.



To care more about communication than words...to care more about the listener than myself....beautifully said, medicated or not. i catch myself saying things just to hear the sound of my own voice saying things that i obviously agree with anyway, cuz they are my own thoughts. This sounds like a resolution i could adopt for myself.

Thank you.

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And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 4:25:34 AM   
chamberqueen


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I lived in Europe for about three years out of the past five, work with international committees, and travel extensively around the world.  It has become second nature to me to try to choose words that convey an easy to understand meaning to the listener - often someone who understands a fair amount of English but it is a second language to them.

In the 24/7 thread that you mentioned, the OP asked for opinions - not for hard guidelines.  The question was, what does it mean to you?  They were not asking for "the" definition, but how others applied the phrase.  (It got a LOT of responses.)  If the question would have been "what is a paddle?" then a clear definition would have been given, yet there would still have been varying word choices.

It is wonderful to think about the listener when trying to communicate.  However, in the forums, we may have 1000 "listeners" from very diverse backgrounds, different stages of maturity within the BDSM world (there are always newbies), and either the gender or top/bottom bias which may lead to a completely different understanding than what we intended.  People also tend to read into things we write with their own bias, for instance those who feel that being a switch is wrong so the person obviously can't have a good relationship with their top. 

I take pride in being a good communicator, clear and concise, yet sometimes find that I have failed.  Your goal is a very worthy one but don't be surprised if it sometimes backfires.  : )




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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 4:39:27 AM   
RCdc


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You will never have a decent conversation nor debate, even when you care about the listener rather than the words, if the other participant automatically takes a disagreement as a personal slur.
 
On that thread you mentioned, I had a perfectly good debate/discussion with Icarys.  We were both at opposite ends in a sense, but because neither of us took it personally, we managed to eventually get the others standpoint, well at least, I got his.
 
People get defensve when they feel their choice is being questioned by an external authority, failing to comprehend that it is they themselves that submit to that authority if they allow it to infect them.
 
It gets boring to keep having to add disclaimers.  One should not be forced to pander to the unsubstantiated feelings another might feel, just because they take it personally/because it's all about them.
 
the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 4:46:00 AM   
stella41b


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Last month was the 10th anniversary of my transition and throughout much of that period a significant part of my support network has mainly been friends and people from what is known as the BDSM community. However this has included periods when I have been street homeless and when those friends weren't there or able to support me and I was alone and throughout this period I still logged into sites such as this one. Things are much better now, back then I wasn't present on the message boards, I never met anyone but there were two or three people, and I do remember two dommes in particular one from Bristol and the other near Glasgow - during the time when I was in Warsaw - who took it upon themselves to spend a few minutes sending me a message asking me how I was. It gave me hope and the faith to get out of my circumstances. Throughout those 10 years I can honestly say that what we refer to as the BDSM community has offered and provided me with far more support and understanding than the LGBT community.

Why am I sharing this with you? This is why. I would like to make the point that we are not all a community of like-minded people, this is obvious, but what seems far less obvious to some on these boards is that this is not just one happy band of jolly kinksters. Some of the people here are going through difficult circumstances, they are vulnerable, isolated, stressed, perhaps trying to make headway through some sort of personal crisis, depression, or whatever. They aren't able to get to events or munches, meet people, they don't have happy relationships, friends, they don't have much more perhaps than a computer, monitor, keyboard and mouse and this website and these boards is their support network.

Maybe I'm wrong here and these things are obvious to everyone, but this isn't always apparent and I for one wouldn't be too sure. Now I'm not going to gild the lily here and say that this is just about general topics and semantics when I see time and time again it' also comes out on threads where people are in distress for whatever reason, they're hurting, and instead of asking the OP further questions and trying to gain a better understanding (taking into consideration that maybe due to emotional anguish or whatever emotion the OP may not be as coherent or as well thought out) out come the opinions, the judgments and every so often the putdowns. The keyword here as quite rightly IMHO stated in the OP is consideration or indeed the ability to see things from a different perspective.

Not that I'm seeking any sort of brotherhood of man because that's being unrealistic, and this hasn't been much of a problem here and isn't exclusive to these boards - it does happen elsewhere and to a far greater degree - but even so here it seems to be a growing trend. I guess part of the reason is, just like any message boards or forum on the Internet frequented by regular posters, opinions are formed, friendships are formed, cliques are formed and enemies are found and any sensitive topic carries a certain amount of risk that it could descend into a flame war between rival factions or even between individual posters. Part of the attraction I guess in posting here is the fact that we can share our thoughts, feelings, experience, knowledge and opinions to a much wider audience where, provided we stay within the TOS of the website we are free to post as we wish. Another part of the attraction has to be not just the learning, knowledge, making friends, finding people and solutions, but also the entertainment value, the debates, the thrashing out, the hairsplitting, the oneupmanship, witty one liners, drama, and so on but does this really need to be at the expense of someone else's feelings?

Sure we can be dismissive, brush the issue under the carpet and pretend it doesn't exist, or just shrug our shoulders and say 'well you know, shit happens' and 'if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen'. I did come across this other thread myself, a thread which had suddenly appeared over ten pages and I thought 'I see.' I went through the first two pages, the last two, and thought 'ha' and left it alone. But I did come across on a couple of the postings the sort of attitude of 'this is how I express myself if you don't like it then it's your problem'. No it isn't. Just because you have an opinion doesn't justify putting it across in an obnoxious or offensive manner nor does personally attacking other posters in any way validate your argument. You see it doesn't matter whether you are stating an opinion, giving facts, advice or whatever it all comes back to that one word consideration.

I'm not saying here either I'm whiter than white, I'm not, but when I get messages from regular posters who have decided to call it a day and they explain to me why it does make me stop and think. What is it we're trying to achieve at the end of the day? Do we really want a forum which is exclusive at the expense of other posters or would we prefer a more inclusive forum? What are we trying to achieve here, both in ourselves and collectively? How can our contribution to these boards influence that collective?

A cause for a little reflection perhaps?

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 4:59:12 AM   
RCdc


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Outstanding post stella.
 
the.dark.

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RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 5:36:53 AM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

You will never have a decent conversation nor debate, even when you care about the listener rather than the words, if the other participant automatically takes a disagreement as a personal slur.

On that thread you mentioned, I had a perfectly good debate/discussion with Icarys.  We were both at opposite ends in a sense, but because neither of us took it personally, we managed to eventually get the others standpoint, well at least, I got his.

People get defensve when they feel their choice is being questioned by an external authority, failing to comprehend that it is they themselves that submit to that authority if they allow it to infect them.

It gets boring to keep having to add disclaimers.  One should not be forced to pander to the unsubstantiated feelings another might feel, just because they take it personally/because it's all about them.

the.dark.

Actually i did understand what you were saying...as did i with everyone else. Your right they did take it personal. I can appreciate a persons side but passionately disagree.

Next: I have an aggressive style, I'll admit that but I'm not going to tone it down as one put it for anyone. You will either see it my way or you'll see it your way. It makes no difference to me is what i was trying to convey with that so called obnoxious tone i had. If someone was offended because of some perceived slight or because as you said "
People get defensve when they feel their choice is being questioned by an external authority, failing to comprehend that it is they themselves that submit to that authority if they allow it to infect them.
 
It gets boring to keep having to add disclaimers.  One should not be forced to pander to the unsubstantiated feelings another might feel, just because they take it personally/because it's all about them."..Well It's just not in me to worry about that.this is a forum for many ideas and if it's offensive you have the option of clicking off. I'm not going to change my style to fit others wants or needs.

Pardon the bold fonts..it does that on occasion and I'm not sure why.

I did enjoy talking with you.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 5:44:37 AM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527


OK, so I was reading the thread in the "Ask a Sub" forum about "What does 24/7 mean to you?" I got to wondering if there isn't something fundamentally wrong with this thread (and, for that matter, all the other ones just like it). And, yes, I'm definitely guilty of this.

All of the posters seem very passionate and focused on binding their particular concept to the word? Why? The point of words, as I understood it, was to communicate concepts. I was pondering this as it relates to the word "slave" and my wife. I could describe her in several different ways, for example:

My 24/7, Live-in Slave
: This description would convey a reasonably accurate view of the authority dynamic. But overall, would convey an extremely inaccurate view. Those who would understand the word "slave" at all, would also attach to it visions of a wide variety of BDSM practices that we just don't do. There'd also be a lot of thematic color in their heads that would be incorrect.

My wife who believes in "love, honor, and obey":
This description would convey the reasonably vanilla nature of our day to day marriage including the fact that my wife is obedient to me. Any listener would likely severely underestimate the full extent of the word "obey" but would otherwise get a pretty clear view.

When speaking to a mixed audience, I can just be more specific...
We participate in live-in, married, full authority transfer relationship sans kink.

OK, so this isn't going to be a huge news flash for anyone here. Most of us consider ourselves pretty good at communication. I can't be the first one to have this thought, I'm just having it right now so I thought I'd write it...

If I would focus more on what my listener was likely to hear and less on what words I particularly wanted to use, then communication would be better served.

Conversely, when someone else uses a word choice that leaves me confused (eg: a usage of the word slave that, to me, contradicts with other parts of whatever they said), then rather than saying, "That's not a slave, that's a peach." I could instead say something like, "I'm a bit unclear then on the details of your relationship. Can you elaborate on what you mean by slave?" Which would get the conversation back on track with no judgement involved.

So this is my new resolution... to care more about the listener than myself... To care more about communication than words... In general, to stop wasting my time and other people's with debates that not only are not resolvable due to the lack of a canonical source, but also dont' really serve any purpose beyond that of debate. It's easy enough to communicate the correct concepts with just a tiny bit of extra thinking.

*laughs*  Now you'll all get to see how well I do at that.



Good post.
I understand i think what you are trying to convey..I'm not the best at communicating what i think into a screen so i do the best i can do. Although when it comes to listening, I believe i'm fairly good at it..That's not to say I won't vehemently disagree with your statements. As for words/definitions..they defines us..we use them for all types of things including labels..sure a person can place whatever they wont under a blanket but does it really fit? Not all of it does just because we say it does..I can be somewhat literal when it comes to some things and yes a little anal as well lol. I know in this case you can't be exact..no one can live every second of the day under another? of course not...but we can get as close as we can before we call a certain word up for use. No i don't do that with everything :>

I hope i addressed your Op correctly..i can wander at times.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 6:05:28 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

It is perhaps unfortunate that you feel the need to "hide" people from your view. I have found that I tend to learn the most from the people that annoy me the most. Except, of course, stupid people. They are just comedic entertainment.

Conveniently, my "hide" decisions are based upon my assessment of someone's "stupidity" to use your word, not how different and possibly jarring their viewpoint might be to my own.  Heck, *laughs*  coming from the vanilla place I do, EVERYONE  here has radically jarring views... that's why I'm here.  In truth, "hiding" is my response to Skip's impassioned plea for civility.  Fruitlessly, I'm sure, but at least I am doing my part to stop feeding the trolls and, if not raise the level of civility, at least not encourage it downwards by participating in such "discussions".  It's a far from perfect strategy, but at least I am doing something to forward that which I believe in.  Further, the method I've chosen has no melodrama, no thread wars, and is not insulting to anyone, even those I've hidden.  I'm not sure I understand the problem.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 6:14:06 AM   
Icarys


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Isn't hiding someone posts from view sort of exclusionary? Kind of ironic we are talking about good communication and he states hiding people. Shrugs

He's probably hid me already


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 6:15:57 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
Actually i did understand what you were saying...as did i with everyone else. Your right they did take it personal. I can appreciate a persons side but passionately disagree.


I believed you did, I just didn't want to be presumptuous.

quote:

Next: I have an aggressive style, I'll admit that but I'm not going to tone it down as one put it for anyone. You will either see it my way or you'll see it your way. It makes no difference to me is what i was trying to convey with that so called obnoxious tone i had. If someone was offended because of some perceived slight or because as you said "People get defensve when they feel their choice is being questioned by an external authority, failing to comprehend that it is they themselves that submit to that authority if they allow it to infect them.


I always find it a good determiner(is that a real word???) of friendship.  Those that perceive aggression as obnoxious, for example, wouldn't be in the same circle of friends as me.  I'm not here (in general, not just CM) to pander to the whims of others - if I did that, I would be different things to different people and not myself.  So all my friendships would be based on a lie.  If people like the way I am - it's all cool - if not, that is cool too.  I believe it is imprtant to consider what a person is saying and question it, so you can understand it.  But then, some people take that as a negative.  If that is the case, it isn't worth my time anyway.
 
the.dark.


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RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 6:18:03 AM   
IrishMist


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I could care less if someone ONLINE agrees with me, disagrees with me, understands me, or even accepts me. I refuse to allow words on a computer screen to influence my thoughts, ideas, and beliefs to the point that I find myself 'trying to communicate better'. Fuck that. Someone either agrees, disagrees, understands or does not understand...with that grey area in between covered...either way though, I accept what they say, I say what I mean, hoping that they accept what I say...if not, they ask for clarification...if they disagree, thats great...more power to you for having your own thoughts...either way, I still don't care one way or  another about words on a compute screen.

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 6:22:32 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Further, the method I've chosen has no melodrama, no thread wars, and is not insulting to anyone, even those I've hidden.  I'm not sure I understand the problem.


I cannot speak for Lady T, but from my POV, if I blocked someones comments, that is my loss, more than theirs.  Everyone, even those one might deem as stupid, has something to contribute and to learn from, even if that means you learn tolerance or just how stupid they still are!  Saying that - even those that are considered fools have wise words on occasion.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 6:24:19 AM   
Icarys


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Good points.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 6:48:21 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
I cannot speak for Lady T, but from my POV, if I blocked someones comments, that is my loss, more than theirs.  Everyone, even those one might deem as stupid, has something to contribute and to learn from, even if that means you learn tolerance or just how stupid they still are!  Saying that - even those that are considered fools have wise words on occasion.

*nods*  Of course this is true.  But honestly, given that my decision to hide an incredibly small number of posters effects only myself unless, as is my hope, it raises the overall level of civility by the tiniest of fractions, don't you think this is a lot of discussion about it?  It's not exactly like my personal contributions on the troll threads would've added anything.  I mean, there's only so many ways to say, "Dude, your reality is not mine." and dozens of other posters are quite ably doing so.

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 7:39:48 AM   
CreativeDominant


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While I agree that communication is important...one of my 3 Basic Rules for my own D/s interactions...I can only go so far in trying to make someone else understand.

When I teach classes to other doctors, I write the seminar and then, speak at a certain level.  The words and phrases I use convey meaning to my peers that patients may not understand or that those in other fields might not understand.  An example of this is the term "subluxation complex".  It means one thing to most chiropractic doctors and when I use it, they understand all that those two words entail.  Now, chiropractic doctors from a differing perspective than mine might see it somewhat differently and, if so, will ask what I include in this phrase when I use it.  One reason why they are given, in the written notes, a more detailed explanation of just what I am referring to.  When I speak to laypeople or to other disciplines, I adjust my word usage accordingly.
But here...we might use a phrase or a term such as "slave" that, other than the BDSM definition that can be found, conveys many things to many people.  When I say that I have a difficult time wrapping my head around so many differing definitions that have nothing to do with either the dictionary definition or the BDSM definition, that is exactly what I mean and I won't try to wrap my head around something just because it works for that person.  As I've stated, you are entitled to your own viewpoint but if that viewpoint differs from almost everyone else's, including any dictionary source that can be cited, then expect to be called on it.  I certainly do if I come up with a thought or a term or a definition of my own for something that is 180 degrees from what is commonly cited or believed.

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