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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 7:51:55 AM

rookey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

OK, so this isn't going to be a huge news flash for anyone here. Most of us consider ourselves pretty good at communication. I can't be the first one to have this thought, I'm just having it right now so I thought I'd write it...

If I would focus more on what my listener was likely to hear and less on what words I particularly wanted to use, then communication would be better served.

So this is my new resolution... to care more about the listener than myself... To care more about communication than words... In general, to stop wasting my time and other people's with debates that not only are not resolvable due to the lack of a canonical source, but also dont' really serve any purpose beyond that of debate. It's easy enough to communicate the correct concepts with just a tiny bit of extra thinking.

Yes, get your brain in gear, before opening your mouth is good advice. Shame we don't always follow it.

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 8:05:47 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

*nods* Of course this is true. But honestly, given that my decision to hide an incredibly small number of posters effects only myself unless, as is my hope, it raises the overall level of civility by the tiniest of fractions, don't you think this is a lot of discussion about it?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'a lot of discussion'. You asked a question, therefore I answered it because I do feel quite strongly about blocking people. I have no desire to sound like I am attacking you personally, I just find it infantile. If you ignore your 'enemies' you have no idea where they are coming from and can never learn from their mistakes to help benefit your own environment. Not blocking and being able to ignore the negative is a way of learning and a maturing of sorts.

As an aside, and nothing to do with your form of blocking, to make an announcement of 'I am blocking you' or 'I am leaving' creates drama in itself and usually those professing to loathe drama are the ones doing it the most.

quote:

It's not exactly like my personal contributions on the troll threads would've added anything. I mean, there's only so many ways to say, "Dude, your reality is not mine." and dozens of other posters are quite ably doing so.

The key is though, you don't have to speak to get your point across. Sometimes silence speaks with far more authority than words ever can.

the.dark.

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 8:23:46 AM

Prinsexx

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Three issues.....the English language, blocking and communication.
i just did an off the cuff count of how many different mother-tongues there are in my street here and the street around the corner. there are at least sixteen. Now the common denominator amongst us all is the universality of the English language. However, just because we talk the same talk doesn't mean we all walk the same walk. far from it.
This is just life isn't it? not distinct from the so-called lifestyle. It's far too easy because we all of us write here in the English language to assume we are conveying what it is we mean to say and then even more difficult to communication what we intended to say. Ahh....
I'm pretty lucky in as much as i speak only one language. i didn't start to speak it until after the age of 7 as i was privated with my sister so we spoke echolalia. But having been brought out into a world where there were others i soon caught up and love and adore the use of words, the nuances of language and what it is possible to do within a certain set of structural rules.
There's emotive language, the instructional language, there's as many types of functions for langauge as there are functions of and for things in the world.
But it's possible to do certain things with a written message here that wouldn't necessarily stack up as appropriate if done 'not here'. It's possible to use language totally without a sense of consequence. write a post, make an accusation and walk away without a care or a thought for the reaction and response. But to say communication is one sideied and that we, each of us, are in no way responsible for others' reactions is, in my humble opinion, a sorry excuse for lack of integrity.
I block email communications of a certain sort. My Master has asked me to block mails now from other dominants who seem to think it's ok to trespass and poach another Master's property. But i am always very willing to email those who want to take up an issue raised here on the forums. I also mail very often to those whom i feel need some soght of support here on the forums. if they do not respond then i am fine with that.
i've been fortunate in earning a good livng most of my life from my abilities to communicate, teach and support others in the English language. I'm as gulity as anyone else of taking it for granted.
I'm not sure what the pivotal point of this thread is, as yet. but in my mind the point for me was, is and always will be, to express myself as best as i can in the moment so that i get the best returns if you will for the time i take to disclose whatever it is i am disclosing. Some days it's just a great treat to be able to sit and read and respond to others here who share a common interest and a common bond. It's a luxury. all communication is a luxury. I learned that way back when i was 7 years old.
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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 8:38:16 AM

rookey

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Yeah, first class posting Stella.

Though I say the keyword isn't consideration but tact, the art of making a point without causing offence. Attacking another poster is not the same as attacking their argument, it's just a good way to look stupid and immature.

Conversely, if someone percives a challenge to their argument or position as a personal insult, you have got to doubt their maturity.

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 8:39:20 AM

Termyn8or

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Words are funny things, especially in the English language. Long time ago I saw a barroom brawl develop for exactly that reason. One guy said "I'll shoot you later", what he meant was he would shoot a game of pool with him. After the fight I bet they both felt like total assholes.

The point is, while it is the responsobility of the author to do their best to express themselves properly, it is also the responsibility of the reader to understand that different people use language slightly differently. On a side note, ironically it seems that foreigners and those who have traveled extensively use the English language more effectively.

Then there's Smitty, a senior tech where I used to work. We used to go to lunch almost all the time. We were discussing something and the subject of slang came up. He said "I have lived in so many different areas of the country I avoid the use of slang, because what means one thing in Cleveland can mean something totally different in Milwalkee". Smart guy.

Right now I don't have any ready examples, but you should get the gist of it.

Poor choices in wording can cause trouble. In a more recent example I was proven wrong. I admit it, nobody's perfect. I commented "Damn smart people". That is pretty ambiguous, but I let it stand with a disclaimer. I agree that having to include disclaimers all the time is a pain, but in that particular case I thought it necessary. That statement can be taken three different ways, and while it is easy to discriminate them using inflection, tone of voice etc., that is not possible in text.

The writer needs to strive for the most accurate expression, but at the same time the reader needs to avoid reading between the lines, and more importantly not to take disagreement as an insult. Respond, do not react.

I also see no use in hiding people. Everyone else can see them, it is tantamount to putting blinders on. It makes no sense to me.

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 8:46:31 AM

Icarys

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quote:

It's possible to use language totally without a sense of consequence. write a post, make an accusation and walk away without a care or a thought for the reaction and response. But to say communication is one sideied and that we, each of us, are in no way responsible for others' reactions is, in my humble opinion, a sorry excuse for lack of integrity.

By no means is communication one sided. But being responsible for anothers reaction to what a person says is absurd and reaching. I cannot make you feel or react a certain way..only you have control over that..One of the things you learn in CBT(and that's not cock and ball torture, although i could see how one might learn the same thing) is that you are responsible for your own feelings..that we all have decisions to make on any number of things..even if we don't recognize them as choices because we aren't always cognizant of them. No one makes you do or feel anything. Take responsibility for yourself.If i say your not a slave because you don't fit into my box for what that is...does that make you feel a certain way or did you decide on your own how to feel that way because of what was said. Of course you decided. Don't try and make someone feel responsible because you didn't like what was said.(that's not you personally..directed in general)

that's better..still learning the post options..

< Message edited by Icarys -- 9/2/2008 8:48:34 AM >

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 8:51:39 AM

rookey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

It's possible to use language totally without a sense of consequence. write a post, make an accusation and walk away without a care or a thought for the reaction and response. But to say communication is one sideied and that we, each of us, are in no way responsible for others' reactions is, in my humble opinion, a sorry excuse for lack of integrity.

By no means is communication one sided. But being responsible for anothers reaction to what a person says is absurd and reaching. I cannot make you feel or react a certain way..only you have control over that..One of the things you learn in CBT(and that's not cock and ball torture, although i could see how one might learn the same thing) is that you are responsible for your own feelings..that we all have decisions to make on any number of things..even if we don't recognize them as choices because we aren't always cognizant of them. No one makes you do or feel anything. Take responsibility for yourself.If i say your not a slave because you don't fit into my box for what that is...does that make you feel a certain way or did you decide on your own how to feel that way because of what was said. Of course you decided. Don't try and make someone feel responsible because you didn't like what was said.(that's not you personally..directed in general)

that's better..still learning the post options..

Yeah I find they can be tricky.
(Edited because the silly sod forgot to proof read before he posted.)

< Message edited by rookey -- 9/2/2008 8:53:34 AM >

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 8:54:46 AM

Icarys

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quote:

I also see no use in hiding people. Everyone else can see them, it is tantamount to putting blinders on. It makes no sense to me.

It could denote something about the person as well. Maybe they can't deal well.

I'm an impatient bastard at times..Some people just grate on your nerves.

Yet i wouldn't block their posts for a variety of reasons.

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 8:56:23 AM

Icarys

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In this case..i quoted my comments right out of the box lol..all that were there were hers.

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 8:59:38 AM

rookey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx
It's a luxury. all communication is a luxury.

I beg to differ. Communication is a necessity and not a luxury. Societies cannot cooperate and function without communication. Is communciation a luxury when you need to phone for an ambulance?

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 9:33:44 AM

Missokyst

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Now for me, your dynamic is what I had with my ex-husband. I was effectively his slave, and there was very little kink involved. I obeyed because that is what I was taught.. but it was more than that, it was more like it was just easier to comply than enduring his reaction if I did not. I view that sort of marriage as old fashioned tradional, where the man is the head of the house without question.
I don't vew that as ds, ms, bdsm because in my own dynamic it was not so much willing as it was fear.
I recognize that other people do it for other reasons, but I question why they feel the need to attach a master slave relationship tag on something that for me, seems like old fashioned traditional. It isn't the relationship I question, it is the need for a tag to make it acceptable.
But that is my issue. Since my marriage all those years ago I have chosen what I do, who I do, and given my authority transfer to few men in the 25 plus years since. And even those times I never needed to tag it. In fact, I ran from that tag no matter how much control I turned over. Tags... I don't know why people need them to feel ok. I am just me, whether I turn my power over, or take it.
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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 9:37:52 AM

Missokyst

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Did I tell you I love you? Blocking to me means I have lost control. I gave someone the power to bother me. I can't see that happening online, and in my life here it has happened only once. And that was because someone made a negative comment on the x.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
I could care less if someone ONLINE agrees with me, disagrees with me, understands me, or even accepts me. I refuse to allow words on a computer screen to influence my thoughts, ideas, and beliefs to the point that I find myself 'trying to communicate better'.

< Message edited by Missokyst -- 9/2/2008 9:40:52 AM >

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 10:22:04 AM

Icarys

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Now for me, your dynamic is what I had with my ex-husband. I was effectively his slave, and there was very little kink involved. I obeyed because that is what I was taught.. but it was more than that, it was more like it was just easier to comply than enduring his reaction if I did not. I view that sort of marriage as old fashioned tradional, where the man is the head of the house without question.
I don't vew that as ds, ms, bdsm because in my own dynamic it was not so much willing as it was fear.
I recognize that other people do it for other reasons, but I question why they feel the need to attach a master slave relationship tag on something that for me, seems like old fashioned traditional. It isn't the relationship I question, it is the need for a tag to make it acceptable.
But that is my issue. Since my marriage all those years ago I have chosen what I do, who I do, and given my authority transfer to few men in the 25 plus years since. And even those times I never needed to tag it. In fact, I ran from that tag no matter how much control I turned over. Tags... I don't know why people need them to feel ok. I am just me, whether I turn my power over, or take it.
Kyst

Whether you like to use them or not they are present and we=everybody uses them all the time each and everyday.

Of course tags to me means a label we put on a certain thing to tell us what that is. as in ex-husband and so on. Our society as a whole has tags for everything..even for the people who don't like "tags"

< Message edited by Icarys -- 9/2/2008 10:23:21 AM >

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 10:42:30 AM

leadership527

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Missokyst:

While much earlier I had much more pressing needs to "label" my relationship, that has faded into obscurity as I've gotten my bearings in this whole wierd mess *laughs*.

The simple answer to your question, "Why do I feel the need attach some tag?" is that if I want to communicate with anyone about my relationship, I must have some way to describe it to them. I honestly don't care whether it's M/s (which I no longer think is a reasonable description), or just that I have a "really obedient wife". But some way or another, if I want to talk about it, I have to give the listener some idea what I'm talking about.

Oh, and by the way, you and I share similar opinions on fear based dynamics. I don't know or care whether they are BDSM or not, I just know they are both destructive in general and distasteful to me in specific. Whatever they are, I want no part of them.

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 1:58:16 PM

Missokyst

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I agree with you to an extent. But I have to say if there was some way I could label myself a normal, I would do it.
What I do not understand is why anyone who has an almost traditional viewpoint would choose to associate it with a kinky tag.
I am bent into a masochistic, sometimes submissive, always insecure and mostly needing of a leader so that I can relax personality. That is not nilla, that is not average, that is not socially acceptable to the majority, and if I were normal I wouldn't be putting on a kinked tag. Because being normal is so.. well.. normal and acceptable.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Whether you like to use them or not they are present and we=everybody uses them all the time each and everyday.

Of course tags to me means a label we put on a certain thing to tell us what that is. as in ex-husband and so on. Our society as a whole has tags for everything..even for the people who don't like "tags"

< Message edited by Missokyst -- 9/2/2008 2:49:56 PM >

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 2:06:09 PM

colouredin

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FR

I think that a debate about what things mean can be a lot of fun to be honest because it oftne shows a lot more than just what a term is to them it shows how they use language and that denotes the kind of person they are very often. The thread you mentioned some people were simply trying to open discussion and opinion others were blocking it others were simply stating their case others were being offensive and others were having a good old debate, all of that was gleaned from language, the way someone speaks can show how open minded they are, how nice they are even (maybe it just shows the kind of day they have had)

Im fascinated by language and i do find that i can get riled up if im provoked even on the net i bdo try to hold my tounge but i dont always manage it especially when the opposition isnt really making a case just being pig headed, there is nothing better than a good debate though

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 4:42:45 PM

stardancer00

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quote:

but in my mind the point for me was, is and always will be, to express myself as best as i can in the moment so that i get the best returns if you will for the time i take to disclose whatever it is i am disclosing. Some days it's just a great treat to be able to sit and read and respond to others here who share a common interest and a common bond. It's a luxury. all communication is a luxury. I learned that way back when i was 7 years old.
prin x

i feel the same way that all communication is a luxury. When i can listen and learn from another or help another, it is wonderful. And if another allows me to express myself, and cares enough to correspond or to help me, i am grateful. We see each other here, through our words, and in all these interactions, all these points of view, we learn, we touch, we connect.

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 5:51:45 PM

Icarys

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okay so your a mutt when it comes to all of that..we are all to some extent but labels are important to me as well as what the definitions are..as close as you can come to the true intent or original intent/original definition is what i would label a certain thing as. People try and complicate things by bowing out of this or that when it comes to BDSM( i mean..no that's not me or this isn't me or i dont except labels..there's a label for them as well BTW) . While i can understand how a person might want to distinguish themselves from the pack..you cannot..

you me and everyone else are similar in more ways than not. So pick a damn label and stick with it lol. Don't bend it to fit your needs..if you aren't exactly that then make up something else. If your not sure what you are then ask someone and they will help ya.

I am what I call and have been called: An Unorthodox Traditionalist.

I believe in the differences of people and the complexities we all show but for fucks sake..leave the old definitions in tact and make up some new ones. Atleast let's take a poll and get some consistency for the community..I find it ironic that we as a whole are into this lifestyle for some of the things we are but can't agree on a single term that means a single thing. It's become burger king BDSM..have it your way..

i guess in some way..why not right?

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 5:55:38 PM

Icarys

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Although after 2 strokes my skills aren't what they use to be..I too enjoy language and am fascinated by people and their usages of it. Yes it is very telling in some cases but don't forget that you can tell a person from just posting..you have to actually meet someone to catch the real meaning..not all but most cases.

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RE: Communication vs. being right. - 9/2/2008 5:55:44 PM

Missokyst

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I picked my label long ago.
I have always been a nomad, a renegade, and more recently a
Non-sheeple.
I don't fit labels because there are too many and too few. My best label is me <g> and since I am the only one for whom that matters, it will do. Until I decide I want to seek out someone who is looking for a label I might wear, the ME will have to do.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

okay so your a mutt when it comes to all of that..we are all to some extent but labels are important to me as well as what the definitions are..as close as you can come to the true intent or original intent/original definition is what i would label a certain thing as. People try and complicate things by bowing out of this or that when it comes to BDSM( i mean..no that's not me or this isn't me or i dont except labels..there's a label for them as well BTW) . While i can understand how a person might want to distinguish themselves from the pack..you cannot..

you me and everyone else are similar in more ways than not. So pick a damn label and stick with it lol. Don't bend it to fit your needs..if you aren't exactly that then make up something else. If your not sure what you are then ask someone and they will help ya.

I am what I call and have been called: An Unorthodox Traditionalist.

I believe in the differences of people and the complexities we all show but for fucks sake..leave the old definitions in tact and make up some new ones. Atleast let's take a poll and get some consistency for the community..I find it ironic that we as a whole are into this lifestyle for some of the things we are but can't agree on a single term that means a single thing. It's become burger king BDSM..have it your way..

i guess in some way..why not right?