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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 10:28:11 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

Generally, LaTigresse, while I disagree with your political positions, I have respect for your intelligence and your ability to state your position.

As you noticed, I did not mention you in the same company as kittin and cloudboy.


Yes, we have a long demerit record with Firm. He's never forgiven me for tasking him about how the US could fund a muscular diplomacy and run a responsible fiscal budget.





Well, cloudboy, I'm not forgiven you for I have never condemned you.

As for that thread ... I'd be happy to return to it, if you wish.

My time isn't always available to spend on the forums to the extent some would wish, and that thread was several pages gone by the time I got back to it, so I let it lie.

But if you really want to continue it, I'll look at my time over the weekend, and I'll be happy to re-engage on the subject.

Firm

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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 10:33:20 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I'm not "trying" anything. I'm just relieved, frankly, because when you live in a glass house, you can't be throwing any rocks. I'm hoping the McCain-Palin ticket neuters 'family values' and the culture war as campaign talking points. This ticket has too much to lose by going there....


CB ... again ... you are a perfect example of what the author is talking about. You see Palin's family issues as a way to neuter the Republican's on the family issues, on the traditionalist vote ... which it will not do.

You're failure to understand is exactly the blindness on the left that the author is discussing, and all of your comments so far just prove his point.

I'm not trying to insult you, just pointing it out.

Firm


< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 9/3/2008 10:35:41 AM >


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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 11:10:02 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY



You're failure to understand is exactly the blindness on the left that the author is discussing, and all of your comments so far just prove his point.




The subtext of the text is the author's blindness. I'm making the assumption the author doesn't have a mirror in his/her house.

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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 11:29:59 AM   
bipolarber


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I've said it before... I don't care that Sarah Palin's daughter is pulling a "Juno"... No, the problem I have is that Mrs. Palin herself has been pushing and preaching "Abstinence Only" education. We can assume that she's been doing so with her own family. Now, we can see how effective that sort of program is, even among those who would legislate it down the rest of America's throats. Again, it's the hipocracy.

(And good luck to young Ms. Palin... at least her beau decided to stick around... which is more than you can say about the males involved in the bulk of teen pregnancies. Which just makes the idea that Palin and her ilk forcing children into motherhood and probable poverty, all the more tragic and sad. They want a mistake made early in life to rip away any potential for the girls, but do NOTHING to hold the boys responsible.)

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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 11:51:08 AM   
FirmhandKY


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Here's another one. ^^

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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 11:52:33 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

The Left will fight this battle as a political debate.



Yes, because everything is political: my turn to turn around clichés. Does the author really think such sensational news will be left unadressed, when their subject is running for vice president of this country? Let's be serious.

quote:



The Left simply misunderstands the Cultural War because they believe that social and religious conservatives think they are perfect people.



Do I take it the  author thinks that 'religious conservatives' have the monopoly of religious sentiments? And what the hell is this 'Cultural War', capitals and all? What war? Is it that 'religious conservatives' have the monopoly of belligerence?

quote:



Rural, working class people know exactly who they are.



Oblique platitude: the author is implying that others don't. Which happens again below:

quote:



You see, conservatives have code by which they live that accounts for it all. Whether they are “right” or “wrong” is immaterial. It is the Left’s misunderstanding which is important here.



Most people live by a moral code: the difference is that it sounds like conservatives seem to believe their moral code should be applied to everybody else. And that's where they are failing something wicked. Morality is personal; when it's a social coercion, it becomes something else: hypocrisy.

quote:



Conservatives know they are imperfect. Instead of embracing the imperfection and “giving up” they instead prefer to strive for something better.



Again: the conservatives don't have the monopoly of self-improvement.

quote:



Telling the American working class that Sarah Palin was wrong <snip>



Now, that's a RIOT! Now the conservatives are embracing the working class and its values  ?

quote:



The Left cannot win this Battle of Bristol.



Again, with the belligerent terminology. What battle? This is a blatant attempt at making a victim and a saint out of this girl, when she would have been much better off being left out of the media glare altogether. Alas, her mother chose to parade her in front of the cameras. She is not a victim, neither is she a saint: this 'Battle of Bristol' title makes her sound like Joan of Arc. Get a grip already.

quote:



And Bristol Palin did nothing other than sin, which we all do. She is now managing her sin as prescribed by tradition.



I simply had to quote this again, because it's priceless. So the sexual act is a sin, when it's committed out of wedlock - well, we know what's missing from this author's life, for sure  .

quote:



the more the personal will very much become the political.



A stroke of genius! The author uses a quote from the feminist movement to justify an anti-feminist philosophy.

quote:



Unfortunately it will become political in a way that leads all those hard working Bubbas, all those church-going single mommas, right out to the polls to vote for that war hero and and those women they now identify with, Sarah and Bristol Palin.



That's shameless - now, because of this unexpected pregnancy, the Palins have the same experience as single mothers akin black churchgoers. Nice  - any more clichés?

Frankly, I'm not surprised at this piece of prose: it's an attempt at manipulating opinion, but it's so obvious, I cannot see who'll fall for it: it's preaching to the converted. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to deconstruct this thing, although I wish I'd spent more time on it  .

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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 11:55:45 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

You're failure to understand is exactly the blindness on the left that the author is discussing, and all of your comments so far just prove his point.


Well, I understand some positive, helpful example could come out of it -- like some sort of lame Disney movie. But I don't see how this helps the McCain ticket. Unwed, unplanned, teen-pregnancies are something most Americans seek to prevent. Slipping off the wagon really isn't a point of pride here.

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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 12:28:49 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

You're failure to understand is exactly the blindness on the left that the author is discussing, and all of your comments so far just prove his point.


Well, I understand some positive, helpful example could come out of it -- like some sort of lame Disney movie. But I don't see how this helps the McCain ticket. Unwed, unplanned, teen-pregnancies are something most Americans seek to prevent. Slipping off the wagon really isn't a point of pride here.


No, "slipping off the wagon" isn't a point of pride.

I know it's difficult to stand back from one's beliefs and see things as if from the outside. Many Christians are incapable of doing so as well.

It is difficult to place oneself in the mind and morals of another belief system and leave one's own. We are like fish, who never notice the water.

But, take what you do know about Christians, both what you call "the far right", and the more moderate centralist, and read something like kittin's post above. What do you believe the visceral, emotional reaction will be in such individuals to the issue, as they read her post?

I suspect it won't be the same reaction that you would normally feel, nor will it commonly be one of condemnation.

Instead, it will be one of sympathy, and one of identification of someone who travels the trails and travails of life with them.

It humanizes her, makes her approachable (or at least creates a connection) that will lead to a greater willingness to vote for her.

What it will not do is change the minds of people such as yourself, or kittin, or anyone else who is chuckling in delight at Palin's personal family problems, and anticipating a voter rebound for Obama because of it.

At worst, it will be a wash in the election. At best, it will sew up the election for the Republicans.

Firm

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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 12:45:54 PM   
philosophy


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FR

......from a pragmatic point of view, the issue with sex education isn't really about ethics. It's about what works.

Now, the problem is defining what is working. FDD in another thread attempted to propogate the idea that free condoms actually increase teen pregnancy, when challenged to provide any evidence of this view he was unable to do so. In fact, another poster was able to provide figures that prove the opposite. i fully accept Firm's assertion however that to use Mrs Palins daughter as a stick to beat the abstinence only crowd is politically opportunistic. Those who do so are using a single example to try to prove a point. That is a bad idea and merely comes across as vindictive. However, there are plenty of impartial statistics out there. Use them to prove points one way or the other.

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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 1:02:43 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

FR

......from a pragmatic point of view, the issue with sex education isn't really about ethics. It's about what works.

Now, the problem is defining what is working. FDD in another thread attempted to propogate the idea that free condoms actually increase teen pregnancy, when challenged to provide any evidence of this view he was unable to do so. In fact, another poster was able to provide figures that prove the opposite. i fully accept Firm's assertion however that to use Mrs Palins daughter as a stick to beat the abstinence only crowd is politically opportunistic. Those who do so are using a single example to try to prove a point. That is a bad idea and merely comes across as vindictive. However, there are plenty of impartial statistics out there. Use them to prove points one way or the other.

I've being using the younger Palin's pregnancy to criticize Sarah's stand on abstinence and I think the criticism is perfectly valid. Bristol must have been taught abstinence at home and from what I can tell it is likely what was taught in her school as well. Still she is pregnant and the father has been identified. Therefore Bristol was not abstinent until marriage as she was taught. No accusation of rape has been forthcoming so it appears the encounter was consensual.

So despite Bristol having two parents both firmly behind abstinence only and a school system sending the same mesage she still got pregnant. Now one would expect Sarah to have taken away a lesson from the experience. She still supports the program that failed in her own family. That's either willful blindness to the facts or straight up hypocrisy.

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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 1:10:28 PM   
Vendaval


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I have sympathy for the young woman and her husband to be.  They are at a very delicate time in their relationship and being put on the national stage is horribly awkward.
 
I will add again that the private lives of the family members should not be paraded about in such a fashion.  However, give the realities of the digital age, this type of media scrutiny is inevitable.

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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 1:54:27 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

You, kitten (and cloudboy), are exactly the type of person on the left who doesn't "get it", I'm afraid. You are proving the author's point.

And you don't even have a vote in the matter!

Firm
Well Firm(and Sanity)I "get it"and it scares the shit out of me.
and BTW I do have a vote in the matter!(though once again it should be pointed out having a vote is not a prerequisite for having and expressing an opinion )

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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 2:02:30 PM   
igor2003


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quote:

The Battle Of Bristol: John McCain Has The Upper Hand
By Kleinheider Posted on September 1, 2008 at 3:09 p

But this is not theory, and to a certain extent its not even politics, this is life. Steve Schmidt is not wrong when in reaction to the news he says, “Life happens.”

Life does happen. It happens again and again to people in rural America who go to church, work and pray hard. Everyday life happens. Despite their prayers, it happens.

.


This, to me, is where the author shoots himself in the foot.  The GOP have their "Family Values" agenda and Sarah Palin wants "abstinance only" to be taught as sex education in schools.  She has shown that these values didn't work in her home, and the author admits that "life happens" regardless of where you are or how religious your family is, thus admitting that the "abstinance only" plan does not and will not work.  And yet they take what did not work and which they admit will not work and want to legislate it into law anyway.  Why?  Simply to attract the vote of Evangelicals.

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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 2:31:16 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003



quote:

The Battle Of Bristol: John McCain Has The Upper Hand
By Kleinheider Posted on September 1, 2008 at 3:09 p

But this is not theory, and to a certain extent its not even politics, this is life. Steve Schmidt is not wrong when in reaction to the news he says, “Life happens.”

Life does happen. It happens again and again to people in rural America who go to church, work and pray hard. Everyday life happens. Despite their prayers, it happens.

.


This, to me, is where the author shoots himself in the foot.  The GOP have their "Family Values" agenda and Sarah Palin wants "abstinance only" to be taught as sex education in schools.  She has shown that these values didn't work in her home, and the author admits that "life happens" regardless of where you are or how religious your family is, thus admitting that the "abstinance only" plan does not and will not work.  And yet they take what did not work and which they admit will not work and want to legislate it into law anyway.  Why?  Simply to attract the vote of Evangelicals.



So ... sex education (explicit! sex education) 100% of the time prevents teenage female pregnancy?

Don't think so.

Firm

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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 2:47:00 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


So ... sex education (explicit! sex education) 100% of the time prevents teenage female pregnancy?



...to be fair Firm i didn't read the poster you replied to that way. As we all know, 100% in social policy is probably not achievable. What we ought to be focussing on is on what works. There does seem to be a plethora of stats that show that abstinence only sex ed is less effective than a reasonable sex ed curriculum that looks at more than just abstinence. If what we want is teens to act more responsibly in the matter of sex then surely we ought to look at things pragmatically, rather than from an idealist standpoint of whatever flavour.......

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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 3:03:12 PM   
kittinSol


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See how mistaken people can be... I doubt very much the majority of people feels any joy at the current events. Certainly, I don't. It's far more complex than you would have us believe though: it's no accident that this 'story' erupted. Perhaps you ought to ask, before making assumptions: you're doing the very thing you keep on deploring from 'the left'.

As for my post... if deconstructing the language of the original text makes you uncomfortable, my job is done: the text is disingenuous and full of fakery and trickery, as I have pointed out. I cannot believe you would be genuinely taken by it, and if I am right, I have to ask: what are you trying to achieve with it?

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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 3:07:08 PM   
MusicalBoredom


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I agree with LaT on this.  I don't think that the personal life of any candidates' family has a place in the political debate.  I agree with the article where it points out that Palin has high standards for herself that she will miss them from time to time -- all of us do.  I disagree with the article in what appears to be an attempt to lump any negative comment towards Palin as an unfounded personal attack. 

The world not a black and white place.  I am a Christian AND a Democrat.  I could care less what someone else's personal or religous beliefs are.  I have enough difficulty trying to resolve my own morals without worrying about someone else's.  I do not want a candidate that wants to intruduce their own peronsal morals as legislation where those morals aren't shared by a HUGE majority of the people.  For example, murder could be a moral issue but I think it is agreed to be wrong by a vast majority.  Some questions like sex marage and abortion however, are not ageed upon buy the same margins.  Where we have differing opions, I think they (the position in question) should be allowed as it causes absolutely no harm to the person with the different opinion.  Now I would oppose any legislation that would require everyone to have abortions or be in a same sex marrages but I have never seen any such law proposed.

I am not impressed with Palin's political stance at the moment.  I was of the opinion that I would probably vote dem but was ok with McCain winning.  I'm starting to not want McCain in ofice at all.



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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 3:14:40 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

I have sympathy for the young woman and her husband to be.  They are at a very delicate time in their relationship and being put on the national stage is horribly awkward.
 
I will add again that the private lives of the family members should not be paraded about in such a fashion.  However, give the realities of the digital age, this type of media scrutiny is inevitable.
Vendeval I agree with all you have said here.My question would be why keep marching this young woman in front of the camera's than....And what were the parents of this young man thinking when they allowed him to be part of the dog and pony show....isn't school in session in Alaska,why was it necessay to trot him out in St.Paul.The party of "Family Values" would seem to be a little confused here....

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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 3:47:12 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Owner59's "fundies" thread is way too long and disjointed, so I'm likely not going to post in it again.

But I did find something that sums up pretty well my take on how her beliefs, and how the left's reaction to her will eventually play out on the political scene.

For your edification:


quote:

The Battle Of Bristol: John McCain Has The Upper Hand
By Kleinheider Posted on September 1, 2008 at 3:09 pm

The Left on the internet and elsewhere will attack this mother of five for failing to live up to the code that she preaches. They will explain that this is proof that traditionalism doesn’t work. That the religious right is a fraud. That the preaching of abstinence is a fool’s errand. They will explain all this thinking they have just laid down the trump card when all they have done is hand it to the opposition.

...

However, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and Bristol Palin is that reaction. Sarah Palin now has the capability of being what Hillary Clinton claimed to be — a hero of the blue collar working class.

Sarah Palin is a working mom with five kids who managed to become Governor of her state. Now Palin has been confronted with the great fear, and for many, the difficult reality of a pregnant teenage daughter. Sarah Palin lived by a code and tried to have her kids live by it as well. Did she fail?

Maybe she did. But as many parents know, you do the best you can with your children.

The Left will fight this battle as a political debate. They will argue that Bristol Palin proves their assertions about traditionalism. They will lay it out point by point. The evidence will be solid. And their case will make sense — in theory.

But this is not theory, and to a certain extent its not even politics, this is life. Steve Schmidt is not wrong when in reaction to the news he says, “Life happens.”

Life does happen. It happens again and again to people in rural America who go to church, work and pray hard. Everyday life happens. Despite their prayers, it happens.

The Left simply misunderstands the Cultural War because they believe that social and religious conservatives think they are perfect people. Rural, working class people know exactly who they are. The Left seems to think that they are somehow breaking the news to social conservatives that sometimes, even often, kids will have sex and get pregnant. Social conservatives know these things. They are not as divorced from reality as they sometimes get painted.

You see, conservatives have code by which they live that accounts for it all. Whether they are “right” or “wrong” is immaterial. It is the Left’s misunderstanding which is important here.

Conservatives know they are imperfect. Instead of embracing the imperfection and “giving up” they instead prefer to strive for something better.

Now, whether this outlook is conservative outlook is true or untrue, healthy or unhealthy is, again, not the point, politically speaking. Telling the American working class that Sarah Palin was wrong to have tried to bring up her daughters by a code in which she believed and that Bristol Palin’s unborn child is the proof that the Left’s arguments about traditional life are true will not resonate with anyone who is not already an Obama voter.

The Left cannot win this Battle of Bristol. The more they try to win it, to demonstrate they are right, the more they will lose ground with those voters they desperate need to stay home or vote for Barack Obama.

For what the Left sees as hypocrisy, most folks who are not Obama voters just see as falling short. As, of course, we, as humans, all do.

Bristol Palin’s journey is a human story. She tried to be good. She fell short. Instead of aborting the baby she will carry it to term and marry the father. To socially conservative America, there is nothing tragic about this.

You see, to many of the voters Barack Obama has not yet seemed to reach and who have thus far been ambivalent about McCain, this is exactly how these things are supposed to go. Their reality has not been shaken, the scales have not fallen from their eyes.

Sarah Palin did nothing “wrong.” And Bristol Palin did nothing other than sin, which we all do. She is now managing her sin as prescribed by tradition. To the traditionalist the situation is not ideal, no, but it is not a disaster.

This is a human story. The more the left attacks, attempts to expose “hypocrisy”, the more the personal will very much become the political. Unfortunately it will become political in a way that leads all those hard working Bubbas, all those church-going single mommas, right out to the polls to vote for that war hero and and those women they now identify with, Sarah and Bristol Palin.

To the Left, this situation looks like that big fat change-up they have been waiting for coming right across the plate. Let me assure you, friends, what is coming at you is a knuckleball, a greased pig with wings.

You are gonna want to take this pitch. You may win the “argument”, but you will lose the election.


Firm



Stop!  Please! You're killing me!!

This was GREAT!

I laughed so hard I got the hiccups.

Can you post more of these?

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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 4:04:56 PM   
kittinSol


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Ah, so I wasn't alone :-) .

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