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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 5:12:52 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


So ... sex education (explicit! sex education) 100% of the time prevents teenage female pregnancy?



...to be fair Firm i didn't read the poster you replied to that way. As we all know, 100% in social policy is probably not achievable. What we ought to be focussing on is on what works. There does seem to be a plethora of stats that show that abstinence only sex ed is less effective than a reasonable sex ed curriculum that looks at more than just abstinence. If what we want is teens to act more responsibly in the matter of sex then surely we ought to look at things pragmatically, rather than from an idealist standpoint of whatever flavour.......


I'm not against a mix of sex educational techniques. I just found it humorous that igor equated less than perfection with total failure. Perhaps he didn't mean it that way, but that's the way it read to me.

"We had a student who graduated from our High School fail a college course. We need to tear the school down and rebuild it, replace all the teachers, have a new curriculum ....:"

Firm

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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 5:20:12 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

See how mistaken people can be... I doubt very much the majority of people feels any joy at the current events. Certainly, I don't. It's far more complex than you would have us believe though: it's no accident that this 'story' erupted. Perhaps you ought to ask, before making assumptions: you're doing the very thing you keep on deploring from 'the left'.

As for my post... if deconstructing the language of the original text makes you uncomfortable, my job is done: the text is disingenuous and full of fakery and trickery, as I have pointed out. I cannot believe you would be genuinely taken by it, and if I am right, I have to ask: what are you trying to achieve with it?


Nothing you or cloudboy (or anyone else from your far side of the fence for that matter), could make me the least uncomfortable, kittin.

In fact, most of the posters in this thread (not all) have done absolutely nothing but verified a major aspect of the authors thesis.

In particular, your long "dissection" of the article dripped vitriol, condescension and smug superiority (not unusual for you, I'll admit),

Your reaction, your words, and your condescension doesn't play so well in "middle America" and with many "blue collar" voters, who will cast the determinative votes this election cycle.

In fact, what you (and your compatriots in the media) will be doing is ensuring that Obama probably loses.

Instead of "uncomfortable" that makes me feel all warm and toasty.

Please, keep up your attacks.

Firm

PS kittin ... on a serious note ... I'm glad to see that you are making an effort to present your position in a more detailed format than generally. I think your dissection was the longest post of yours that I've ever seen.

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 9/3/2008 5:24:59 PM >


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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 6:40:33 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


We need to get past the mindset that wants to ban books, criminalize our personal lifestyle choices, decide who or how many we can recide with/marry, how to make deeply moral personal decisions. We need a national leader that will focus on leading our nation, not meddling in our personal lives. Someone that will see the big picture world wide, not snoop around for reasons to blacklist the arts. ...




I just do not understand how a political party affiliation could blind people to the danger of their own personal freedoms.




         LaT, that's why have a Bill of Rights.  Let's keep in mind here that anything she did would have to move through a D controlled Congress that might be a wee bit obstructionist.  That will include Supreme Court picks.

         She'll be speaking shortly.  Maybe she'll bomb, and you can breathe easier, knowing Obama will be sleeping next to the phone.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 9:07:55 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

         She'll be speaking shortly.  Maybe she'll bomb, and you can breathe easier, knowing Obama will be sleeping next to the phone.


No bomb. LT needs to continue to worry.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 10:27:30 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

I just found it humorous that igor equated less than perfection with total failure. Perhaps he didn't mean it that way, but that's the way it read to me.


It baffles me how few people realize that the perfect is the enemy of the good.



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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/3/2008 11:34:16 PM   
slaveNwaiting


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Palin is a real American, facing real issues, the PTA? Public School? We have come to think our politicans are above such. She loves her children even when they make mistakes and teenagers make mistakes. The way she has handled it is the way most conservatives do, unlike the 'let's get an abortion' liberals.
This issue will not hurt her with moral issue voters. Onlly the left will see it as a negative. Palin makes me proud, unlike either Obama, Biden, or McCain. Keep digging Obamaites and try as best you can to bring socialism to this great land. God Bless America and defeat the left.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/4/2008 12:57:29 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveNwaiting

Palin is a real American, facing real issues, the PTA? Public School? We have come to think our politicans are above such. She loves her children even when they make mistakes and teenagers make mistakes. The way she has handled it is the way most conservatives do, unlike the 'let's get an abortion' liberals.
This issue will not hurt her with moral issue voters. Onlly the left will see it as a negative. Palin makes me proud, unlike either Obama, Biden, or McCain. Keep digging Obamaites and try as best you can to bring socialism to this great land. God Bless America and defeat the left.


I wonder what poor Levy is thinking. I bet he's got Sarah pointing a gun to his head "You will marry my daughter, a single teenage mother in my house is an electoral liability!'

Taking bets on how long the marriage lasts.

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RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/4/2008 10:12:15 AM   
DedicatedDom40


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


Sarah Palin is a working mom with five kids who managed to become Governor of her state. Now Palin has been confronted with the great fear, and for many, the difficult reality of a pregnant teenage daughter. Sarah Palin lived by a code and tried to have her kids live by it as well. Did she fail?

Maybe she did. But as many parents know, you do the best you can with your children.

The Left will fight this battle as a political debate. They will argue that Bristol Palin proves their assertions about traditionalism. They will lay it out point by point. The evidence will be solid. And their case will make sense — in theory.

But this is not theory, and to a certain extent its not even politics, this is life. Steve Schmidt is not wrong when in reaction to the news he says, “Life happens.”

Life does happen. It happens again and again to people in rural America who go to church, work and pray hard. Everyday life happens. Despite their prayers, it happens.



Firm



Sorry, Firm, but as someone who leans Libertarian, all I can say is this piece you posted is a bunch of backstepping bullshit from a party in deep trouble.

Should Bristol's predicament keep her mom out of the running? No.  Should Sarah Palin, as a VP, promote legislation that limits other American families to abstinence-only sex education choices when abstinence-only failed in her own household?  Absolutely not.  That would be akin to Bill Clinton pushing his views on marriage, legislatively, onto everyone else in this country right on the heels of the Lewinski debacle.  Enough with this "kids will be kids" or "its a human story" or "parents try" backstepping nonsense.

Republicans go around fear-mongering that the Democrats are going to socialize healthcare.  Yet socialized medicine in this country remains a hypothetical.  The Republicans however, through a lack of regulatory oversight, have inadvertently socialized the housing market in this country. That is happening for real, and is not a hypothetical.  It is outrageous for any Republican to argue that Democrats are the only socialists in town.  But I do understand.  Its crisis-driven behavior.

When the Cato Insitute, a right wing, pro-free markets, pro-liberty think tank opines 4 years ago that Democrat Bill Clinton was a fiscal genius, and Republican George W Bush is a fiscal turd, something is terribly wrong with the core of the Republican party.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=4564

Thanks to the prescription drug bill, Republicans have been responsible for the biggest expansion of Johnson's "great society" in the past 30 years.

We appear to be going through another one of those political shifts that happen every so often, where the Republican brand name is now equating to more traditional Democrat ideals (loss of personal freedoms in trade for security, big government, debt buildup) and where the Democrat brand name now is equating to the more traditional Republican, Goldwater-esque areas (personal privacy protection, non-interventionist foreigh policy, small government, low debt). I suspect more and more people are going to be "voting the facts" and not "voting the party" this time around.

And until the foot soldier noisemakers realize that, the saga for the Republicans only gets more humorous and tragic at the same time.

< Message edited by DedicatedDom40 -- 9/4/2008 11:07:13 AM >

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/4/2008 11:00:24 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DedicatedDom40

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


Sarah Palin is a working mom with five kids who managed to become Governor of her state. Now Palin has been confronted with the great fear, and for many, the difficult reality of a pregnant teenage daughter. Sarah Palin lived by a code and tried to have her kids live by it as well. Did she fail?

Maybe she did. But as many parents know, you do the best you can with your children.

The Left will fight this battle as a political debate. They will argue that Bristol Palin proves their assertions about traditionalism. They will lay it out point by point. The evidence will be solid. And their case will make sense — in theory.

But this is not theory, and to a certain extent its not even politics, this is life. Steve Schmidt is not wrong when in reaction to the news he says, “Life happens.”

Life does happen. It happens again and again to people in rural America who go to church, work and pray hard. Everyday life happens. Despite their prayers, it happens.



Firm



Sorry, Firm, but as someone who leans Libertarian, all I can say is this piece you posted is a bunch of backstepping bullshit from a party in deep trouble.

Should Bristol's predicament keep her mom out of the running? No.  Should Sarah Palin, as a VP, promote legislation that limits other American families to abstinence-only sex education choices when abstinence-only failed in her own household?  Absolutely not.  That would be akin Bill Clinton pushing his views on marriage, legislatively, onto everyone else in this country right on the heels of the Lewinski debacle.  Enough with this "kids will be kids" or "its a human story" or "parents try" backstepping nonsense.

Republicans run around fear mongering that the Democrats are going to socialize healthcare.  Yet socialized medicine in this country remains a hypothetical.  The republicans however, through lack of regulatory oversight, have inadvertently socialized the housing market in this country. That is happening for real, and is not a hypothetical.  It is outrageous for any Republican to argue that Democrats are the only socialists in town.  But I do understand.  Its crisis-driven behavior.

When the Cato Insitute, a right wing, pro-free markets, pro-liberty think tank opines 4 years ago that Democrat Bill Clinton was a fiscal genius, and Republican George W Bush is a fiscal turd, something is terribly wrong with the core of the Republican party.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=4564

Thanks to the prescription drug bill, Bush has been responsible for the biggest expansion of Johnson's "great society" in the past 30 years.

We appear to be going through another one of those political shifts that happen every so often, where the Republican brand name is now equating to more traditional Democrat ideals (loss of personal freedoms in trade for security, big government, debt buildup) and where the Democrat brand name now is equating to the more traditional Republican, Goldwater-esque areas (personal privacy protection, non-interventionist foreigh policy, small government, low debt).

And until the foot soldier noisemakers (like good ole Firm) realize that, the saga for the Republicans only gets more humorous and tragic at the same time.


DD40,

You are making many assumptions on facts not in evidence.

The first assumption is that I wrote what you quoted above. Either you are being disingenious or did not catch that it was a quote from another source.

The issue from the article that I quote in the OP was to highlight that the attacks on Palin do not particular serve the left in the way that they anticipate.

The second assumption is that I disagree with the basic theme of your post. I actually agree with much of your thesis (not all).

A third false assumption on your part is that I'm some kind of "footsoldier noisemaker", especially for the Republican party.

And I would also say that your assumption that you are a libertarian, and that I'm not is also incorrect, depending on how you define the terms.

I do agree that there appears to have been a basic shift in the Republican party over the last 8 years (whether or not it was situational and temporary, or permanent is open to debate). I do not consider Bush or his administration much of any kind of "conservative" in many areas, and have a lot of heart burn with so-called "compassionate" big government Republicanism. I wasn't particularly upset when the Dem's gained control of the Congress (because I think many of the elected Republicans deserted conservative ideals, and I'd just as soon have a left-leaning Congress that made no bones about it, than a self-styled conservative Congress that didn't act like it.)

I don't think McCain is much of a conservative either.

The two things that the Republicans did right over the last few years was the Supreme Court appointments, and the fight against Islamic terrorism. For those two reasons, I've supported them, despite my distaste of much else going on.

I think the Republicans will continue the war on terror. I hope McCain will do the right thing in the Supreme Court (although not particular expecting it).

I also think that there is a chance of the party returning to real conservative roots. Palin may be that vehicle.

The Dems? I disagree with almost all of your assessment of where they are headed. To the contrary, I think the Dems are in deep trouble in the long term, and we would have no hope of reduced government influence in our daily lives. I think a Democratic guided future for the US would be disastrous.

Despite your many false assumptions, however, I do think you for your thoughtful post.

Best wishes.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 9/4/2008 11:01:03 AM >


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/4/2008 12:13:22 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveNwaiting

Palin is a real American, facing real issues, the PTA? Public School? We have come to think our politicans are above such. She loves her children even when they make mistakes and teenagers make mistakes. The way she has handled it is the way most conservatives do, unlike the 'let's get an abortion' liberals.
This issue will not hurt her with moral issue voters. Onlly the left will see it as a negative. Palin makes me proud, unlike either Obama, Biden, or McCain. Keep digging Obamaites and try as best you can to bring socialism to this great land. God Bless America and defeat the left.


I wonder what poor Levy is thinking. I bet he's got Sarah pointing a gun to his head "You will marry my daughter, a single teenage mother in my house is an electoral liability!'

Taking bets on how long the marriage lasts.




I would really like to see the discussion focus on how she`d govern and not her personal life or her family.

It`s counterproductive and not fair.

She can be asked these tough questions without bringing her family into it.

I`d also like to see the supporters of her extreme agenda stop hiding behind her apron and confront the questions that need addressing and that shouldn`t be dodged.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The victim act by fundies is the to be expected but no less disgusting.Her agenda should be probed and known.The American people deserve nothing less.Any attempt to hide or obscure her ultra-conservative is just plain cheating.

Let`s talk about it,not her personally.

Ah, sunshine as a disinfectant.

Nature`s best and it`s saves on oil.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 9/4/2008 12:14:43 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/4/2008 12:26:37 PM   
LaTigresse


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Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

        She'll be speaking shortly.  Maybe she'll bomb, and you can breathe easier, knowing Obama will be sleeping next to the phone.


No bomb. LT needs to continue to worry.

Firm


I have been, and will continue to, sleep wonnnnnnderfully.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/4/2008 1:20:47 PM   
DedicatedDom40


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Joined: 9/22/2005
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Hey Firm,

Listen to what a conservative who worked for the Goldwater campaign thinks about the current state of affairs inside the Republican party. He also shares some views on Supreme Court nominees as well. Near the end of the second segment, they compare this Goldwater guy's views with the candidates of both sides.  Who do you think he most closely matches?

part 1    http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07112008/watch.html

part 2    http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07112008/watch2.html

Got solutions?

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Palin, yet again, and the "fundies" - 9/4/2008 8:36:06 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DedicatedDom40

Hey Firm,

Listen to what a conservative who worked for the Goldwater campaign thinks about the current state of affairs inside the Republican party. He also shares some views on Supreme Court nominees as well. Near the end of the second segment, they compare this Goldwater guy's views with the candidates of both sides.  Who do you think he most closely matches?

part 1    http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07112008/watch.html

part 2    http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07112008/watch2.html

Got solutions?



I opened the links, but the video's looked kind of long. And they are by Bill Moyers. I don't have a lot of confidence in Moyers.

I think what is more important to see about the future of the parties is who their intellectual leaders are, and who holds power within the party (as well as if there is any change in the type of leaders rising to the reigns of power).

The last Democratic "change" candidate was Bill Clinton. Obama and Biden do not seem to be anything other than the same big government, tax and spend, raise taxes and "crawl on your knees to tyrants" foreign policy types that the Dems have favored for decades.

The intellectuals of the Democratic party haven't changed in decades either.

On the Republican side, it is somewhat better. Yes, the last 8 years haven't seen much from them. They became coopted, and lost their focus on anything other than maintaining power.

But interestingly enough, that attempt to maintain power was exactly what lead to their losses over the last couple of election cycles.

Watching Palin last night, and listening to McCain tonight, I think the problems with the Republican party has been correctly identified, and will likely be addressed with a McCain/Palin victory.

No matter what you may think of McCain, you can't deny that he has regularly gone his own way, and pissed off the very Republican party hacks who suffered from a "principles deficit".

So, overall, I am more confident that the Republicans are on the right track, than I am the Democrats.

Firm

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Profile   Post #: 53
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