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RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 6:14:03 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Seems like we all agree that the scenario is not OK.

Excuse me, but it seems to me that you are reading only the posts that support -your- particular position. I have said, in two different posts now, that we don't know enough about the situation to lay any kind of judgment at -all- about this situation, and that I know of situations where the scenario that you describe would be -completely- within the bounds of the agreed-upon relationship.

Again, in the event that I wasn't clear enough, this -may- be an acceptable situation in certain relationships, but we do NOT have enough information and have NO information from one half of the participants of this incident, so it is impossible to lay a judgment about what has happened, why it happened, who was "at fault" or any other conclusion that people seem so eager to jump to.

Situations like this, where people just jump in and lay judgment where they have -no- idea of the circumstances, are why the government has such an easy time continuing to call WIITWD a crime -- if people are willing to lay accusations of abuse without any concrete evidence or even hearing both sides of the story, how much easier must it be for "authority agents" to determine that -anything- we do can be abuse at their whim because -they- see it as abuse?

Calla Firestorm

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 61

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 6:15:38 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I agree that the senario is way too vague. Seems everyone saying it's not ok is assuming the worst. What if the senario was:
Dominant: "Girl, make me a cheese sandwich!"
Submissive: "I just painted my nails and they'll be ruined."
Dominant: "I don't care. Make me a cheese sandwich or get a spanking."
Submissive: "I'm not making a damn sandwich with wet nails!"
Dominant then puts girl over knee and starts spanking, she cries and fusses and "safewords" and he spanks her harder.

That senario fits with the OP and you'd call the cops?

Yes... gladly. As soon as she credibly conveyed that she wanted him to stop, there were no further considerations in my mind.

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 62

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 6:28:30 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I agree that the senario is way too vague. Seems everyone saying it's not ok is assuming the worst. What if the senario was:
Dominant: "Girl, make me a cheese sandwich!"
Submissive: "I just painted my nails and they'll be ruined."
Dominant: "I don't care. Make me a cheese sandwich or get a spanking."
Submissive: "I'm not making a damn sandwich with wet nails!"
Dominant then puts girl over knee and starts spanking, she cries and fusses and "safewords" and he spanks her harder.

That senario fits with the OP and you'd call the cops?

Yes... gladly. As soon as she credibly conveyed that she wanted him to stop, there were no further considerations in my mind.

For -YOU- there were no further considerations. Let's take the WayBack Machine back to when their contract was negotiated and presume (since we are already presuming so much) to add the following conversation (this conversation is actually pretty common among the people I've known with 'no holds barred' contracts)... something that an attention-seeking submissive who is looking for a reason to assuage her guilt and anger by making the dominant person the 'bad guy' might not think to mention:

Dominant: "Ok, I accept that you yield yourself completely, however, I see that you've never done needle play or fisting. The first time we do those, you will have a safeword. You will use your safeword to let me know when the intensity is beyond where you think you can handle it. This is for -my- information only. It may not stop what we're doing, and you won't be able to use your safeword for anything else. Are you OK with this?

Submissive: Oh, Yes... anything you say, Master. I want to give you everything.

Dominant: One other thing, the safeword is -very- specific. You will only be able to use it on the two occasions we've discussed, or, at a future time, if I tell you we are trying something new and you'll get to use your safeword under the same circumstances. You will -never- be able to use a safeword to get out of punishments for misbehavior or disobedience. That means that even if you call a safeword if you're being punished, I will not stop. Do you understand?

Submissive: Yes, Master, I understand. I would never disobey you, and I understand that I won't be allowed to safeword out of punishments.

I say it once again...We do NOT have enough information on which to judge this situation.

Calla Firestorm

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 63

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 6:33:15 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I agree that the senario is way too vague. Seems everyone saying it's not ok is assuming the worst. What if the senario was:
Dominant: "Girl, make me a cheese sandwich!"
Submissive: "I just painted my nails and they'll be ruined."
Dominant: "I don't care. Make me a cheese sandwich or get a spanking."
Submissive: "I'm not making a damn sandwich with wet nails!"
Dominant then puts girl over knee and starts spanking, she cries and fusses and "safewords" and he spanks her harder.

That senario fits with the OP and you'd call the cops?

Yes... gladly. As soon as she credibly conveyed that she wanted him to stop, there were no further considerations in my mind.

With all due respect leadership - if you called police out on this scenario, not only are you interfering with a couples personal relationship, you are wasting police time and possibly placing others in danger by calling out police for a spanking incident?

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 64

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 6:37:55 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Not at all.
I am actually quite shocked and appalled at the amount of people crying abuse and call the police.
The submissive has to hold her share of the accountability too and hardly anyone other has mentioned this.
The situation described is far to vague and contradictory to make a full analysis of.

I'mn ot one crying for the cops here, but I'm not sure how the sub should hold any more accountability? She communicated that she no longer was willing to "go there." She safeworded which we can presume to be a signal they both agreed to as a sign to "stop, really, somethings wrong."

What exactly does a person need to do to say "Really, this isn't ok with me anymore, stop, now, yes NOW, bad wrong, stop" and be reasonably accountable in your eyes?

Yeah it might be kinda sucky if she made all these claims about submitting and "going there" and is now withdrawing consent, but that's life. Being accountable does not necessarily mean we get it all right immediately at the time of consent, it can and does also mean communicating awareness as it arises- she became aware that THIS thing was not ok with her, communicated it and was ignored, communicated AGAIN and was ignored.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 65

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 6:44:22 AM

FlamingRedhead

Posts: 451
Joined: 3/4/2007
From: Georgia
Status: offline

I agree with missturbation's and Calla's assessment, which seems to be the unpopular vote, that this scenario is acceptable. If a submissive person enters a no holds barred relationship and issues a slave veto, that person had better be prepared to be punished for disobedience or released. I don't see corporal punishment as a way to force submission because there are some instances where someone might rather take the punishment than do what was asked. I also don't believe in a safe word during punishment. Punishment isn't meant to be fun or enjoyable or controlled by the bottom. Of course, we have no way of knowing whether this was a simple spanking or a full-body beating that landed her in the ER, etc, to say whether this was abusive, but I'm surprised at the number of people jumping on the bandwagon.

_____________________________

I'm so addicted to
All the things you do
When you're going down on me
In between the sheets
Or the sound you make
With every breath you take
It's unlike anything
When you're loving me

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 66

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 6:56:36 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

I'm surprised at the number of people on this thread who are condoning a dominant ignoring a safeword. I don't care what the circumstances are or what was previously agreed to. In the end, we are human beings and we all have a right to say that we withdraw consent. Now withdrawing that consent may end the relationship....or it may lead to more in depth communication....but that is not the issue. The issue is that at the moment that consent is withdrawn all action has to stop. Contract or no contract....punishment or not....it has to stop.

I'm not one to use safeword codes...as a matter of fact, I adamantly refuse to deal with them. But I can promise you this....if I was with someone and I clearly withdrew consent...and that someone continued past that point....I would make damn sure he was accountable for THAT decision.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to FlamingRedhead)

Post #: 67

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 7:15:50 AM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

After re-reading the OP I found myself thinking that if this were a "taken in hand" type, domestic discipline type relationship that the 2 were involved in, then I would see this as abuse. Clearly being beaten like this is not something that the submissive actually gave consent to.

If this is a BDSM/WIIWD type relationship then it would depend on how well things were negotiated up front. A blanket consent generally isn't as much of a blanket as it is an afghan, which has a lot of holes in it. A well negotiated consent with clearly defined parameters and options is what makes the most sense but is not something most sub-frenzied subs are going to think of in the lust of the moment so they agree to what is in actuality an afghan consent with holes that need to be filled in.

For me, the lesson to be learned from this is to put things in the correct context and for Dominants and submissives to determine if they are negotiating a blanket consent or an afghan one.

_____________________________

"cooking is my kink"

Collared June 19, 2008
(uncollared 12/21/09 with his death. RIP my Santa)

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 68

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 7:23:30 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie
For me, the lesson to be learned from this is to put things in the correct context and for Dominants and submissives to determine if they are negotiating a blanket consent or an afghan one.

It does not matter what kind of consent was previously given....what matters is the moment consent is withdrawn.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 69

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 7:33:04 AM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I apologise.
More coffee?

the.dark.

LOL I never turn down coffee

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 70

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 7:35:38 AM

TysGalilah

Posts: 589
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: offline

forced dominance?
    jumbo shrimp?

dominance and leadership = inspiring, inspired


( not talking about forceful play and forced humiliation here )

scenario is too vague to make a judgement call
what was the demand?   it makes a difference imo

bring me your daughter?
no way
yes I demand it
go fuck yourself...............door slam
   btw..no punishment because the door slam kinda stops that from happening yanno?

but...a different demand in a different scenario might make that reaction inappropriate and a deal breaker.

hopefully, if you're in a well communicated, LT authoritytransfer relationship, you already know the person well enough to know that that kind of an absurd demand would never enter into the dynamic in the first place and so as the submissive you are not put in a position of having to reject or deny.

_____________________________

galilah

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 71

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 7:39:12 AM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Not at all.
I am actually quite shocked and appalled at the amount of people crying abuse and call the police.
The submissive has to hold her share of the accountability too and hardly anyone other has mentioned this.
The situation described is far to vague and contradictory to make a full analysis of.

I'mn ot one crying for the cops here, but I'm not sure how the sub should hold any more accountability? She communicated that she no longer was willing to "go there." She safeworded which we can presume to be a signal they both agreed to as a sign to "stop, really, somethings wrong."

What exactly does a person need to do to say "Really, this isn't ok with me anymore, stop, now, yes NOW, bad wrong, stop" and be reasonably accountable in your eyes?

Yeah it might be kinda sucky if she made all these claims about submitting and "going there" and is now withdrawing consent, but that's life. Being accountable does not necessarily mean we get it all right immediately at the time of consent, it can and does also mean communicating awareness as it arises- she became aware that THIS thing was not ok with her, communicated it and was ignored, communicated AGAIN and was ignored.

LA, where did you get in the scenario described that the submissive was communicating anything to the Dominant, other than a desire to get out of a (seemingly deserved) punishment? heck, it's not even spelled out that she refused to obey, it just seems to be assumed that simply because she strongly does not wish to obey a command, she does not obey it. so without explaination of any sort, she refuses to obey, then undergoes a punishment which she must have known was coming, and proceeds to try to beg her way out of that. that sounds to me like someone who got in way over their head and had no idea what the reality of life as a slave may entail.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 72

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 7:50:56 AM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

~FR~
Well, since no one else directed their answer solely to how it would affect only THEM...I am going to go with the general flow here and answer again from the perspective that everyone else is answering from.

Does this seem like dominance to me? No. But only because I do not judge dominance by actions; I see dominance as something that a person ...exudes.

Is it an acceptable scenario? Going only with the information that has been given, yes, to me it is acceptable. And yes, I do see the submissive/slave in this scenario as the one at fault.

Any adult who enters into a relationship...of any kind, for any reason...should do so fully informed about what that relationship would entail. In this instance, the use of corporal punishment as a means of correcting disobedient behavior. She gave her consent, knowing full well what the repurcussions that withdrawing same consent during punishment would be. SHE broke her word....when she was forced to endure punishment for disobedience and decided that it was ok to try and get out of it with a safeword. She had been told that the punishment would not stop. She accepted that. She is at fault, not him.

Sorry , but...that is how I see it.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 73

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 7:56:29 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

Does this seem like dominance to me? No. But only because I do not judge dominance by actions; I see dominance as something that a person ...exudes.

Something that gets me time and again are when people say - 'oh she doesn't do this so she isn't dominant', or 'dominants do this action' or 'he is abusive, thats not what a Master is, so he isn't one' .blahblahblah. like there is some sort of checklist.

I never get those and find them completely crap.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 74

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 8:02:14 AM

leadership527

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Calla/everyone: Yup, I totally get it that my ethical parsing of this is mine alone. I thought I had made that clear already. That's why I posted the original question. I'm not trying to debate whether your ethics are right or wrong. Debating base ethical systems with people is seldom fruitful in real life, much less on an internet discussion board. This was simply research and I'm getting a chance to peer into other people's heads and see how they process some questions around consent and harm.

D&D: I live in the US. This behavior is most definitely illegal here. So yes, I am "interfering" with the couple. Also, yes, I am also upholding the ethical system that my parents gave me. I will point out that your assertion that my action would be "wasting police time" is not yours to make. We have an entire useless city filled with representatives and senators to make that sort of decision. Neither you nor I have to. I'm down with your ethical assessment... no problem there (see above). But I can't see how reporting a vigorously prosecuted crime constitutes "wasting police time" or how anyone other than legistlators, police departments, or DA's offices get to make that call.

Overall, I'd like to thank everyone who's responded so far. I'm getting what I'd hoped out of this. I'd ask everyone to remember that when you start any topic which involves clashes in base ethical systems, it is WAY easy to get both squicked out at those who don't agree with you AND to then start defending your own turf. If possible, it'd be nice to avoid that on this thread.

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 75

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 8:05:13 AM

colouredin

Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline

FR

See its funny if you were to have been a bit more bague with your post, a simply question like is it ok for a Dominant to ignore safewords most would say no, the fact that you gave a little infomation but not all blurs the lines more.

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There would be no gossip without secrets
I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

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(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 76

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 8:15:25 AM

Riggor

Posts: 43
Joined: 8/24/2008
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Assault, plain and simple.

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Post #: 77

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 8:16:26 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
D&D: I live in the US. This behavior is most definitely illegal here. So yes, I am "interfering" with the couple. Also, yes, I am also upholding the ethical system that my parents gave me. I will point out that your assertion that my action would be "wasting police time" is not yours to make. We have an entire useless city filled with representatives and senators to make that sort of decision. Neither you nor I have to. I'm down with your ethical assessment... no problem there (see above). But I can't see how reporting a vigorously prosecuted crime constitutes "wasting police time" or how anyone other than legistlators, police departments, or DA's offices get to make that call.

I want to be clear, my response was to your reaction to eyes scenario of OTKS. It was one way the scene you described could have occured. It is my assertion based on where I live. I don't want to see my tax money wasted because someone called the police out because of an OTK spanking because someone decided to over react and interfere in a domestic dispute. I don't want to see the police called out, when there is no physical danger to someone, when there could be someone else dying or in danger, which could mean more of my money is wasted with hospital fees, prison services etc. It is absolutely my call to make.
If you believe it isn't because of the reasons you gave, then in the same breath it isn't your call to make that call to the police in the first place! That just wouldn't make sense.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 78

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 8:20:25 AM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Calla/everyone: Yup, I totally get it that my ethical parsing of this is mine alone. I thought I had made that clear already. That's why I posted the original question. I'm not trying to debate whether your ethics are right or wrong. Debating base ethical systems with people is seldom fruitful in real life, much less on an internet discussion board. This was simply research and I'm getting a chance to peer into other people's heads and see how they process some questions around consent and harm.

D&D: I live in the US. This behavior is most definitely illegal here. So yes, I am "interfering" with the couple. Also, yes, I am also upholding the ethical system that my parents gave me. I will point out that your assertion that my action would be "wasting police time" is not yours to make. We have an entire useless city filled with representatives and senators to make that sort of decision. Neither you nor I have to. I'm down with your ethical assessment... no problem there (see above). But I can't see how reporting a vigorously prosecuted crime constitutes "wasting police time" or how anyone other than legistlators, police departments, or DA's offices get to make that call.

Overall, I'd like to thank everyone who's responded so far. I'm getting what I'd hoped out of this. I'd ask everyone to remember that when you start any topic which involves clashes in base ethical systems, it is WAY easy to get both squicked out at those who don't agree with you AND to then start defending your own turf. If possible, it'd be nice to avoid that on this thread.

leadership527...i hear you. you're just getting an idea of where everyone stands. as for the issue of consent and harm, yes i suppose one's personal ethics will govern their feelings on such a topic. my own ethics say that it is unethical for a slave to willfully disobey her Master. perhaps there could be some grave, extreme circumstsance where the disobedience would be understood, or perhaps even warranted, but the decision to disobey one's Owner is still unethical.

in the scenario you posed, we don't know whether her Master commanded her to find a baby and eat it's brains, or go fix a cheese sandwich, as another poster mentioned. we only know that for some unclear reason, she chose to disobey. you called this revoking consent. well let's put aside the fact that the slavery in which i live and understand does not allow for a slave to revoke consent. if this is indeed what she is doing, something that will shake the foundation of the entire relationship...then why is she doing it seemingly in the heat of the moment over one incident, why is there not some calm discussion taking place at the appropriate time? it just doesn't make sense to me.

but if you don't mind, i'm more interested in why you feel the way you do about such a scenario...in your eyes, what is the grave offense the Dominant has committed, what has occured so atrocious that it would warrant police interference, and why is the submissive seemingly innocent? as someone who has been a slave for 8 yrs come this october, and understands that this is not an easy path and that sometimes a Master may push a girl to the breaking point and at the time it may feel like it will be impossible to bear it, but always, always the Master is there to show you that you can....and knowing that you are in a M/s dynamic as well, one without the accessories of BDSM, just as we are...just how and why is the scenario as you have described it so troubling?

< Message edited by daddysprop247 -- 9/4/2008 8:21:27 AM >

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 79

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 8:26:47 AM

sirsholly

Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline

In response to the OP...if the dom agreed to honor a safeword prior to the incident then proceeds to ignore it his actions constitute assult (ie a criminal act).

If the dom and sub have an understanding that a safeword will not be honored then i see no issue with the scenario.

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(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 80

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