Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Is this dominance to you?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Is this dominance to you? Page: <<   < prev  4 5 [6] 7 8   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 9:36:20 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline
quote:

What is the grave offense?  Spousal abuse and assault and battery.  In this case, my ethical systems also agree with the law of the land.

Why is the submissive innocent?  She clearly communicated her wishes.  He struck her after that.  As soon as that happened, in my mind, this was no longer consentual BDSM, but rather a crime and morally reprehensible (to me).  That is the entire beginning and end of my decision tree.  There are no other catches, ifs, or maybes.  I was raised with a very very clear message both from my parents and then in subsequent various adult training... "no" means "no" (and again, let's not play word games on that one,let's just assume she really meant "no" as I wrote).


You say she clearly comminicated her wish to stop. Firstly you need to clarify if she had a safe word or not. If she did then clearly he should have stopped.
Secondly if there was no safe word how did she clearly communicate she wanted him to stop? All you say is she screamed and begged. I scream and beg for sir to stop but that does not mean i am withdrawing consent.
If in a club you saw Sir and i and i was screaming and begging for him to stop, would you call the police? If so i certainly would no thank you or take kindly to it. If not, why not? You have clearly said you would for your scenario.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 9:37:02 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

A parent doesn't bother with giving a child a detailed explanation for why he should or should not do something, the parent simply gives the rule and if the rule is broken, the child is punished. The idea is not to convince the child that the rule is right, instead, the objective is to establish authority. Slaves shouldn't be treated any differently.

I personally found this part quite amusing in that it shows that the 'author' not only has no fucking idea what she is talking about, but that she obviously does not understand youngins very much lol.

Sorry for the hijack


i don't think it is a hijack. That part of the article really rattled my cage. She is implying it is acceptable for a parent to say "Do not touch the stove because i said so." Yeah...that'll work. Perhaps "Do not touch the stove because it is hot and you will get burned. Burns hurt." might have far more effective results.
It does, in no way, undermind the authority of the speaker to provide a reason for the rule.

And as i said earlier...if a Dom has to give a rule to establish authority he is not a Dom.


_____________________________

PICKED UPON
TECHNO-DOLT
MEMBER OF THE SUBBIE MAFIA
GRACEFULLY CHALLENGED :::::splat:::::
BOOT WHORE
VAA/S FAN

GIVES GOOD HEART (Lushy)

CREATOR OF MAYHEM (practice)


(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 9:41:46 AM   
MzDeadlyRed


Posts: 29
Joined: 7/17/2008
From: Lake St Louis, MO
Status: offline
quote:


And as i said earlier...if a Dom has to give a rule to establish authority he is not a Dom.
quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

In that case, the rules are merely uspoken.  It does not negate their existence.


_____________________________

Let thy speech be better than silence, or be silent. ~Dionysus The Elder~

(in reply to sirsholly)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 9:44:16 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzDeadlyRed

You folks aren't real big on accepting another's interpretation or opinion are you?  The article was written by a female slave, and it was HER interpretation and opinion.  I found her opinion VERY interesting.  Do I agree with it?  Not necessarily on all counts, but another's point of view is always most interesting.  I love seeing how other people look at different things.  My opinion on the whole thing was written above the article and was based only on what the OP wrote, not on what I ASSUMED.  I respect your opinions on this, but such vehement objection, I can see the steam coming from your ears!  


No you are incorrect.
I am all for anothers opinion.  I am against an opinion to include everyone.  That is not consent.  I am against the abuse of children.  That is against consent.  I dislike generalisations.  I dislike people who enforce fantasy onto others.  I dislike misinformation.  I dislike people using anothers sources to back up their viewpoint when they clearly show they have little knowledge of said person(in this case, Aristotle).
 
By that very article and website, as a woman, you should be experiencing pain. You should be submitting.  You should be molded. What say you?
 
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 9/4/2008 9:59:11 AM >

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to MzDeadlyRed)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 9:45:14 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzDeadlyRed


In that case, the rules are merely uspoken.  It does not negate their existence.



so if a rule is unspoken the sub/slave is aware of it......how?


_____________________________

PICKED UPON
TECHNO-DOLT
MEMBER OF THE SUBBIE MAFIA
GRACEFULLY CHALLENGED :::::splat:::::
BOOT WHORE
VAA/S FAN

GIVES GOOD HEART (Lushy)

CREATOR OF MAYHEM (practice)


(in reply to MzDeadlyRed)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 10:03:22 AM   
MzDeadlyRed


Posts: 29
Joined: 7/17/2008
From: Lake St Louis, MO
Status: offline 		Ok, what say me?  I say you can't see the forest for the trees, and you completely missed my entire point.  Don't let emotion cloud your view.  MY point was simply that her opinion was interesting to me.  I haven't internalized it, I have no reason to.  Why should I?  Yes it's a generalized article, because that's how SHE feels about it, just as that's how YOU feel about it, etc etc etc.  Most opinions are rather generalized  Neither is right or wrong in my opinion.  I'm not here to argue it either, and I won't.  I know now in the future though, only to post articles and references that are certain to not enflame others.  Sheesh.

holly, to answer you.  You stated :  if a Dom has to give a rule to establish authority he is not a Dom and then in response to my interpretation of that said : 
so if a rule is unspoken the sub/slave is aware of it......how?

Which is it then?  Rules or no rules?  Written or unwritten?  Spoken or unspoken?  I agree that Dominance doesn't come from a list of rules on a page, but there are certain things a sub/slave should just 'know'.   Such as common courtesies, manners, and respect for themselves before extending that respect to anyone else.  Does that make sense now?  I don't have to write down that I want my dishes washed and dried and put away in a certain fashion.  I don't have to set a rule on how I want to be addressed, or how I want my girl to prepare my breakfast, or prepare herself for inspection.  Those things she can be told, or an astute observer will pick it up on her own.  As a matter of fact, that list of 127 slave rules made me laugh so hard I almost pissed my pants.  The best learning tool is allowing someone to make mistakes and learn from them, evolve.  Again my opinion. ~shrugs~


_____________________________

Let thy speech be better than silence, or be silent. ~Dionysus The Elder~

(in reply to sirsholly)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 10:05:11 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

What is even more bizzaro is the fact that it posted by a female dominant(I perved the profile) - I cannot get my head around that one...
 
the.dark.


Actually, the article was posted by a FemDom, but was -written- by a submissive female.

Much of what the author writes is only relevent to her situation and her experiences. It certainly doesn't fit me or mine, except that we -do- find pain to be a transformational and/or energetically powerful experience.

I believe that the FemDom who posted this is using this article to forward the idea that pain is necessary for a submissive, in order to properly discipline and train submissives in proper behavior, and that the idea of being able to safeword out of that kind of punishment is anathema. I would disagree profoundly for myself and those with whom I participate, since I tend to use pain as a psychospiritual energetic release or as a reward, and rarely use pain for instructional purposes  (I'd say 'never' but that may not be the case--I can't remember any instances, but that doesn't mean they won't happen). I also don't "punish" -- I discipline, but for me, they are not the same thing. However, in this FemDom's dynamic, this might, indeed, be the case (and if so, could be an example of one of the relationships I was trying to explain about earlier, where consent includes the agreement that a servant cannot safeword out of even corporal punishments).

I can't say that I'm surprised at the number of people who are eager to insert their own ethical and moral perspectives into someone else's relationship, but I -am- disappointed. I suppose that it is the "Judgement" aspect of my INTJ nature that requires more evidence (and more accurate evidence) in order to make a decision that is truly 'just', rather than a decision based on an emotional reaction to a one-sided speculation.

Now -- I would like to toss out something for those individuals who are considering the OPs speculative submissive's use of the safeword to be retraction of her consent to the relationship. In the event that that was the case... that the dominant party requested something of this submissive individual that she was completely unwilling to yield to, and therefore that she felt the need to end the relationship, that submissive party needed to -very- clearly say "I am no longer a participant in this relationship and withdraw all consent to continue. I will take my things and leave now.", and then proceed to do so. At -that- point, BEFORE any punishment started, if she has clearly communicated that she is -out- of the relationship, and if he were to continue, that is then a clear crime (several, actually -- kidnapping, assault, battery...). However, according to the speculated article, she -submitted- to the corporal punishment, meaning that she did NOT declare herself free of the relationship and did NOT withdraw consent for the relationship to continue, so, if "no safeword for punishment" was part of that arrangement, by accepting that she was to be punished in the first place, instead of walking out the door, she has accepted continuation of that relationship. Some may believe that, in using the safeword in a situation where she'd already been told that it was not valid, the dominant party should have stopped anyway, but that may NOT have been part of their dynamic. It is my contention that these kinds of 'consent play' arrangements muddy the water, as does "force play" -- it may be exciting and 'fun', but it can make it difficult to determine issues like this consent issue when, to quote another writer, "the rubber hits the road".

In a relationship like the ones that we participate in, it is crucial that we are accurate about our intentions. Vaguaries will pose problems on all levels of the relationship (and clearly, may produce stress and the feeling that they need to intervene for individuals outside of the relationship). That is precisely why I have an absolute "No means NO" policy in my relationships and do not play -any- "shades of grey" consent games.

Calla Firestorm


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 10:16:12 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Greetings and regards
 
I did understand that it was posted by a female dominant.  I did understand it was not her article and it is written by a self identified submissive.
 
I do believe that it is important to note that humbledfemales is anti BDSM.  They believe in 'natural order'.  They are male supremacy advocates and do not believe they are the same as BDSM.  They do not - by their own terms - encourage nor support feminism of any kind and actively work against it.  They do not believe in male submission.  This is why I found it bizzarre that it was posted by a female dominant who identifies as bisexual and seeking male submissives to apply.
 
Whilst I understand the concept of why it may be posted, I do not understand why someone post something so general and misinformed.
 
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 9/4/2008 10:18:00 AM >

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 10:27:11 AM   
MzDeadlyRed


Posts: 29
Joined: 7/17/2008
From: Lake St Louis, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Greetings and regards
 
I did understand that it was posted by a female dominant.  I did understand it was not her article and it is written by a self identified submissive.
 
I do believe that it is important to note that humbledfemales is anti BDSM.  They believe in 'natural order'.  They are male supremacy advocates and do not believe they are the same as BDSM.  They do not - by their own terms - encourage nor support feminism of any kind and actively work against it.  They do not believe in male submission.  This is why I found it bizzarre that it was posted by a female dominant who identifies as bisexual and seeking male submissives to apply.
 
Whilst I understand the concept of why it may be posted, I do not understand why someone post something so general and misinformed.
 
the.dark.


Misinformed?  I've gone through that site upside and downside.  I know what that site is all about.  Because I'm bisexual and a female dominant I'm supposed to only read things that pertain ONLY to BDSM and males/females?  I'm sorry, my circle is bit larger than that.  Perhaps I should use a disclaimer when I post from other sites so as not to trample upon delicate sensibilities?  Right.

To be quite frank, which I'm sure is going to open another can of worms, I don't believe males should be submissive either.  I wasn't raised in that environment.  My father was the bread winner, my mother was a slave.  All of the men in my life have been strong and carried an aura of absolute power.  I do not consider myself below men, and never will.  I defer respect where respect is due.  HOWEVER, I don't think it's my place to deny submissive men.  There are VERY few of them I will deal with personally though in a relationship outside of friendship only.  I have always believed in freedom of expression and belief.  I'm the least judgemental person on the planet.  I also believe that snap judgements very rarely change, they are forever emblazoned upon the psyche. 

dark, your opinion is noted, categorized, and accepted.  That being said, the horse is dead.

< Message edited by MzDeadlyRed -- 9/4/2008 10:30:22 AM >

_____________________________

Let thy speech be better than silence, or be silent. ~Dionysus The Elder~

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 10:32:05 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

I reviewed the OP, to make sure that I was responding properly to this... prop, what everyone is getting up-in-arms about isn't the disobedience and whether or not that constitutes "removal of consent". What they're getting upset about and making these judgments based on is this section from the OP:

quote:


  • The dominant then proceeds to corporal punishment.
  • The submissive starts crying and screaming for him to stop, including uttering whatever passes for safe words if any exist.

  • The dominant, at this point, ups the intensity of the corporal punishment

  • The submissive tries to get away, but cannot

The issue at hand is that the dominant party did not stop when the submissive party used a safeword.

My issue with this, all along, is that it is never made clear how the safeword is considered in this relationship. As I spelled out -very- clearly in an earlier post, there are relationships where the submissive party is told at the very beginning of the relationship that the safeword -will- be ignored during punishment, and even if it is used, it will be ignored. If this was agreed to in advance, how can people come back later and say "Oh, well, it doesn't matter. If the safeword is used, even if it is used in a way that wasn't agreed to, it has to be obeyed."

For myself, if a servant safe-worded in this kind of situation, I -would- stop. Then again, "ummm, stop." IS a safeword for me. So is "I don't like this" or "I can't do this any more." They might find that the relationship was over, but I would stop the action. However, I spend too much time counseling people who have different rules to -ever- believe that it is ok to apply MY rules to someone else's relationship, and that is what I see happening here. I see a lot of people who are making snap judgements without knowing all the information, and are using those snap judgements based on their own opinions to justify interference in another person's relationship.

NOW, that being said, I have had people outside of a relationship come to me and ask me to check on something happening with friends of theirs, because they think that something may be going on that is unsafe or unhealthy. I've reported domestic abuse masquerading as D/s or M/s, and I've helped abused individuals to get into safe-houses or shelters when they couldn't get out of an abusive relationship on their own. However, without understanding the foundation of what was agreed to in a relationship, one cannot judge.

If someone calls the authorities on a relationship that they see as abusive, and there is -any- visible or accessible item that might, in the closed minds of the law, constitute probable cause, then regardless of whether this was a miscommunication or a real case of abuse, the Top is going to go to jail, and will likely be convicted of a crime, because in the United States, there is NO SUCH THING AS CONSENT TO ASSAULT OR BATTERY. Therefore, by not understanding the possible extenuating circumstances and jumping to conclusions, a situation that -may- be fixable becomes a virtual guarantee to ruin someone's life. I believe that, as a community that supposedly chooses to live doing WIITWD and expects others to respect our choices, we have an ethical responsibility to NOT jump to conclusions -- to act as mediators where we can, and to discover, through thorough examination, whether or not there is an actual -crime- being committed. If some of us are not willing to do that, those individuals, IMO, should mind their own business, lest they make the capacity to live with WIITWD more difficult for everyone else.

Ok, that's my rant.

Calla Firestorm



Calla, first i do understand that the issue many seem to have with this scenario is the fact that he continues to physically punish her after she begs him to stop/uses a safeword, etc. my confusion lies in exactly why this would automatically lead to labels of "abuser! evil b*stard!"...especially when it has been established that the submissive in question is owned (aka a slave), and especially considering the fact that she is being punished for blatant disobedience (a perfectly justifiable reason to punish a slave), and then trying to beg out of that punishment (something totally inappropriate in any D/s or M/s dynamic i know of). but as we've established, we all have our different codes of ethics, values, personal philosophies, etc., which will color our opinions on a situation like this.

now, the section of your post i have bolded...i agree with you 100%. it is really shocking and frightening to me how many people here are proudly proclaiming that they'll call the cops on this guy, with only the vague information given and having no understanding of the dynamic between these two people. lives can be destroyed...children taken away from good loving parents...jobs lost...reputations shattered...all because some so-called good samaritan decides to interfere where they have no place. before taking such a drastic measure, i would hope that people would be wise enough to be informed of ALL the facts, and as you say not jump to conclusions or force our own personal moral code on others.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 10:34:55 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
Now -- I would like to toss out something for those individuals who are considering the OPs speculative submissive's use of the safeword to be retraction of her consent to the relationship.


I'm not sure if I am one of the individuals you are referring to so I just want to clarify. I wasn't meaning to imply that her retraction of consent was necessarily a statement that she no longer wished to be in the relationship....although that may be the ultimate outcome. A retraction of consent should be viewed in the moment it is said...anything previously agreed to or any possible outcomes beyond the stop of action should not be considerations in that moment.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 10:38:06 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzDeadlyRed
To be quite frank, which I'm sure is going to open another can of worms, I don't believe males should be submissive either. 


Holy Crap! If that is what you believe then why on earth are you looking for submissive men to serve you?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to MzDeadlyRed)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 10:43:16 AM   
MzDeadlyRed


Posts: 29
Joined: 7/17/2008
From: Lake St Louis, MO
Status: offline 		The sad part is, sooooooooooooooo many agree to things they have no real comprehension of and once they are smack dab in the middle of it, the reality becomes far too much to handle and the dire state of their situation become painfully clear. ~pun intended~

To them, they have been abused.  They have been misled into thinking their ultimate fantasy could come to a crashing halt simply because they aren't having FUN anymore.  Punishment is not fun.  This is what separates the doers from the non. 

I am all too aware that abuse does happen all too frequently within the realm of BDSM.  Predators are EVERYWHERE looking to capitalize upon some poor frustrated housewife who just wants to be tied up and spanked.  She's not looking to take bruises and welts home, but more oft than not, that's exactly what happens.  I've seen it, you've seen it, we know it's possible.  Explain that one to the cops?  I wouldn't want to be laughed at.  I asked him to keep me in line, but only on my terms, officer.  He spanked me harder than I wanted him to and I feel violated even though I consented.  See where I'm going with this?  Yes, I agree, lives CAN  and HAVE BEEN ruined because of misinformation and looking before leaping.  Who's really at fault though?  Hard to tell.

Once again though, you really can't tell what's the full dynamic was from the OP.  I couldn't at least.




_____________________________

Let thy speech be better than silence, or be silent. ~Dionysus The Elder~

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 10:47:24 AM   
MzDeadlyRed


Posts: 29
Joined: 7/17/2008
From: Lake St Louis, MO
Status: offline
quote:

men
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzDeadlyRed
To be quite frank, which I'm sure is going to open another can of worms, I don't believe males should be submissive either. 


Holy Crap! If that is what you believe then why on earth are you looking for submissive men to serve you?


Did you read the rest of the post?  If you would read my profile as well you'd see I'm looking for all kinds of relationships, not just for service.  I am not the female interpretation of the male mysogynist.


_____________________________

Let thy speech be better than silence, or be silent. ~Dionysus The Elder~

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 10:48:49 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzDeadlyRed
Punishment is not fun.  This is what separates the doers from the non. 


Huh? Wow, it's going to be a real blow to Sir when I have to explain to him that I'm a non doer because we don't do the whole punishment thing.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to MzDeadlyRed)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 10:50:43 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzDeadlyRed

quote:

men
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzDeadlyRed
To be quite frank, which I'm sure is going to open another can of worms, I don't believe males should be submissive either. 


Holy Crap! If that is what you believe then why on earth are you looking for submissive men to serve you?


Did you read the rest of the post?  If you would read my profile as well you'd see I'm looking for all kinds of relationships, not just for service.  I am not the female interpretation of the male mysogynist.



Well I did read your whole post but I can't understand why anyone would do or support something that is directly in opposition to their own beliefs. What a supreme sacrifice you make.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to MzDeadlyRed)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 10:52:22 AM   
MzDeadlyRed


Posts: 29
Joined: 7/17/2008
From: Lake St Louis, MO
Status: offline 		Another dead horse.  I'm done defending my opinions to nitpickers who refuse to see only what they wish to see.  I'm not here to argue, and I won't.  Simple.

_____________________________

Let thy speech be better than silence, or be silent. ~Dionysus The Elder~

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 10:55:22 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzDeadlyRed
Misinformed?  I've gone through that site upside and downside.  I know what that site is all about.  Because I'm bisexual and a female dominant I'm supposed to only read things that pertain ONLY to BDSM and males/females?  I'm sorry, my circle is bit larger than that.  Perhaps I should use a disclaimer when I post from other sites so as not to trample upon delicate sensibilities?  Right.


Out of context.  I said misinformed and general.  Anything that is genralised is misinformed because it does not take into account other scenarios.  As I have stated, I am very interested in others viewpoints.  If I was not, I would not know about HF and I would not have gone through it.  There are some interesting articles - I particularly like the one about doormats.  I think it rocks and is well written.  But for this scenario it would be completely biased.  I won't apologise for thinking that particular article is a load of hogwash and very generalistic - it upholds extreme views of non consent.

quote:

To be quite frank, which I'm sure is going to open another can of worms, I don't believe males should be submissive either.  I wasn't raised in that environment.  My father was the bread winner, my mother was a slave.  All of the men in my life have been strong and carried an aura of absolute power.  I do not consider myself below men, and never will.  I defer respect where respect is due.  HOWEVER, I don't think it's my place to deny submissive men.  There are VERY few of them I will deal with personally though in a relationship outside of friendship only.  I have always believed in freedom of expression and belief.  I'm the least judgemental person on the planet.  I also believe that snap judgements very rarely change, they are forever emblazoned upon the psyche. 


The questions I asked you as a self identified female dominant were pertinant to the article and to the OP, IMO.  None of which you have responded to - which of course is your perogative.  I do not ask questions expecting a response - yet I am always grateful when they are.  I will not apologise for noting that the article is badly formed and generalistic, noting that in the scenario that leadership posted, the article would not condem this as abusive regardless of the reason behind the scenario but the natural order - it would also not see it as dominance really(the second which I agree with).  If you take offense to the fact that a few people do not like an article you used and then go on to question why you might like it or have used it, you have bigger self issues in taking it as a personal slur.
 
You do not believe in male submission - cool that rocks for you.  No can of worms there.  And being judgemental is not a bad thing... you have it all over your postings, snap ones et al.
 
I did not like the article based on it's enforcing attitude on all.  No apology.  I asked you questions to discover more about you and your reasons for posting it.  If all you can do is be defensive and revert to name calling and inuendo instead of having an adult conversation, then I am done.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to MzDeadlyRed)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 11:12:18 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		Dayum...but I want to BEEEEEEEEEEEEEE .dark



_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.


(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/4/2008 11:26:22 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Sure, I'd be happy to try to answer.... insert mandatory disclaimer here that these views are representative of MY ethical system only and are are expressed as assertive statements.  These assertsion are not meant to be applied to the reader.  Do not insert fingers in this post.  Do not melt with acid and inhale fumes.  Incorrect application of this post voids any warranty express or implied.  Not valid in all 50 states.  Not valid in your relationship.  Some restrictions may apply.

Is it unethical for a slave to disobey her master?  Yes, she made a prior agreement and she's now unilaterally modifying it.  Don't mistake me here.  There is nothing that I see as "good" about people who cannot make and meet commitments.  I have discipline, strength, integrity and wisdom questions about the woman in the story. 

Can a slave revoke consent?  Yes. I do not acknowledge the concept of  irrevocable consent.  Much of my subsequent reasoning follows from that (and this is probably where you and I diverge).  Had I asked you, "Do you think it's ok for a guy to beat a woman who has never consented to such a thing?"  I'm guessing you'd be agreeing with me.  I see the scenario presented as exactly identical to that. 

Was her timing and handling appopriate?  Honestly, I don't have a clue on that one.  There was insufficient details in this hypothetical example to get an answer.   I just don't see it as any relevant part at all to my decision tree.  Nor is the nature of the command or the specific harshness of the corporal punishment (within some credible limits, I wouldn't be calling the cops if he "beat" her with a feather.)

What is the grave offense?  Spousal abuse and assault and battery.  In this case, my ethical systems also agree with the law of the land.

Why is the submissive innocent?  She clearly communicated her wishes.  He struck her after that.  As soon as that happened, in my mind, this was no longer consentual BDSM, but rather a crime and morally reprehensible (to me).  That is the entire beginning and end of my decision tree.  There are no other catches, ifs, or maybes.  I was raised with a very very clear message both from my parents and then in subsequent various adult training... "no" means "no" (and again, let's not play word games on that one,let's just assume she really meant "no" as I wrote).

In general, I get that you are in a positive, affirming relationship.  I get that your master pushes your boundaries.  So do I.  As I type this, mine is being pushed past a pretty nasty [for her] public humiliation boundary.  The bottom line in my head though, is that you are still saying "yes".  So is my wife.  I'm sure she is, as I type, thinking very unslavelike thoughts about me *laughs*, but she is consenting.  Even at times in your past when you may have really wanted to say "no", you in the end said "yes" (I have to assume since you are still together).  You are still consenting.  And so I am thrilled for you and yours and speculate joyful thoughts about your relationship.

I hope that helps explain my  reasoning about my ethical standards.


leadership527...thank you for taking the time to answer my question. and yes, your explaination has clarified for me somewhat why you feel as you do on this subject. what i gather is that for you, regardless of one's status or relationship dynamic, a person can withdraw consent at any point and time for any reason at all, and that the only ethical thing to do at that point is to respect that person's decision to withdraw consent. it's not a belief i agree with or an ethos i share, but intellectually i can understand it.

as for my own relationship, there is no such thing as my being able to revoke my consent to him. i gave myself to him...i made the choice to follow this path, to be owned completely by another person, and it was with the understanding that there was no turning back. only he can terminate the relationship, only he can say when enough is enough. you mentioned my not saying "no." you are certainly right about that, i have never refused him, never even thought of refusing him. it's a foreign concept to me, it just doesn't fit in my world. but sure, like your girl and probably most other slaves, i have certainly had my share of un-slavelike thoughts. and i've had some extremely trying times, especially in the first couple of years, where i wondered what the heck i had gotten myself into...sunk into despair thinking that all i had to look forward to in life was suffering and struggle...even some truly low times when i thought death seemed like a reasonable option. and all this because of the concept of revoking consent...of having the power or freedom to say no...of having my hands at the controls, and not my Master's...just would never occur to me, it is so antithical to slavery as i know it.

if i were to do something as ridiculous and insane as attempt to beg out of a deserved punishment, without a doubt my Master would react in much the same manner as the Dominant in your scenario. He would proceed to beat the living daylights out of me, because not only had i been disobedient, but now i'm trying to tell him to stop? really? He would totally flip. and in the following days, after my visible injuries had faded, he would take me to go see a shrink because he would be certain that i had lost my mind. fortunately, such a thing would never occur in this house.

you said that i would probably be in agreement with you if we were talking about a man beating a woman who had never consented to that type of relationship. and you're right, i would agree in that case that he was in the wrong and something should be done. but that was not the scenario posed...we are talking about a slave, and to me that changes everything. could it be that these two people just have very different ideas as to what slavery really means and have some serious communication issues? very likely, yes. ideally, should the Dominant halt the physical punishment and get to the bottom of the real issue? sure. but does it suddenly make him a horribly abusive person because he does not? in my book, no, because he is abiding by the terms of the relationship.


(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 120
Page:   <<   < prev  4 5 [6] 7 8   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Is this dominance to you? Page: <<   < prev  4 5 [6] 7 8   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109