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RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/1/2008 12:40:28 PM   
KillaShack


Posts: 29
Joined: 11/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lateralist1

I am utterly rendered speechless at what I have just read.
Surely we have moved on since 'Aristotle'.
Unfortunately some women do have a perpensity to actually believe what some or all men tell them.
Please please please read what you have written and understand the gender bias in it.
Really I don't care what you think but limit it to yourself not females in general or even female submissives/slaves in general.
I'm sure one of my previous male partners who beat me nonconsensually would agree with you but I and thousands of women who are trying to stand up for their rights not to be beaten will not thankyou for your viewpoint.


Ok, I must add my 2 cents in here.  I think this post is confusing the issue here.

Men and women who abuse others usually do so from a point of hatred. A hate that they have for themselves.  This self loathing manifests its self into a monster that beats the beauty out of others because they can’t look at themselves in the mirror.

My slave gets no use of safe words. And I sometimes whip or spank her beyond her endurance level.  Does this make me a bad person?? No it does not.

 If it did then my personal workout trainer or my high school football coach are bad people as well. As they constantly broke me physically to build me back up stronger. I had a safe word to make my coach stop. It was… “I quit!” But I would never use it. For then I would be off the team.

So yes, I beat my slave. She is my property and she gets no say in her treatment. We have made a commitment to each other. We are both very happy with it. Do not uglify what we have by dumping us in with the “thousands” of abused people. Just because some Doms and Subs have a view of commitment that does not match yours, it is wrong to compare them with those self loathing monsters that abuse others to try and improve themselves.
 
I have read this post and I see two basic sides trying to argue or debate their viewpoint.
Those that believe in safe words and limitations, and those that do not.
 
The reality is that both are right and they are both wrong. Subs are like snowflakes… No two are alike. And they melt quickly when the heat is turned up.  I’m kidding abit here but what works for some won’t work for everyone.

 You can not commit to something if you are holding back.  If you are using safe words then both party’s must be committed to using them.

If someone breaks the commitment then you have a choice. To stay or move on. This is the same with any type of commitment. If a lover cheats on his or her partner… do they work it out or do they split up.  If a friend betrays your confedence, do you forgive them or do you dismiss them from your life.

Ultimately the choice falls to the person who feels they have been wronged.  They must do what they feel will be best for them.



< Message edited by KillaShack -- 10/1/2008 12:42:10 PM >

(in reply to lateralist1)
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RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/1/2008 1:28:32 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		The scenario posed as the start to the thread strikes me as abuse, first and foremost, and massive communication breakdown, among other things. 
  Davan

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/1/2008 2:18:43 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lateralist1

Please please please read what you have written and understand the gender bias in it.

I'm about to...


quote:

ORIGINAL: lateralist1

I'm sure one of my previous male partners who beat me nonconsensually would agree with you but I and thousands of women who are trying to stand up for their rights not to be beaten will not thankyou for your viewpoint.

That's funny. Here I thought standing up to keep people from being non-consensually beaten and abused was an issue that transcended gender.

Just because the situation is a volatile one prone to hit many emotional buttons should not muddy the waters of trying to assess where permanent consent was surrendered...and then randomly demanded back (directly contrary to the vow).

Yet, no one here that I've seen has spoken in favor of the continued beating after her 'change of mind'.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

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(in reply to lateralist1)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/1/2008 2:30:05 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

The scenario posed as the start to the thread strikes me as abuse, first and foremost, and massive communication breakdown, among other things. 
Davan

Let's see if we can't get cold and calculating with the topic, just to prod our brains:

How much of WIITWD is (normally) considered abuse?

Is there ever a situation in which a sub/slave does not wish to be punished, but is anyways? Would that be an example of abuse?

If the above is to be considered an example of abuse, let us switch the character roles from 'Master and slave' to 'parent and child'...and then ask the questions again:

Is there ever a situation in which a child does not wished to be punished, but is anyways? Would that be an example of abuse?


Another thought: In the original scenario, although "ups the intensity of the corporal punishment" is mentioned, it does not specifically imply that the corporal punishment is taken to such a point that irreversible physical harm is being done. It seems to me we are drawing the line of 'abuse' not in actual relevance to how extreme the punishment is...but proportionately to the dislike the sub/slave has for it.

This might seem, yet again, a situation that would prompt a knee-jerk reaction to say that the consent is being waived (although it was supposedly permanently given). However, if we switch the character roles we again find ourselves in a common parental disciplinary situation that (I suspect) would not yield as vehement a response.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 10/1/2008 2:31:43 PM >

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/1/2008 2:33:22 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		I would say that they only thing that matters is if its dominance to them.
If so, then who am I to judge.
it takes all types to make the world go round.

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/1/2008 2:42:07 PM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lateralist1

I am utterly rendered speechless at what I have just read.
Surely we have moved on since 'Aristotle'.
Unfortunately some women do have a perpensity to actually believe what some or all men tell them.
Please please please read what you have written and understand the gender bias in it.
Really I don't care what you think but limit it to yourself not females in general or even female submissives/slaves in general.
I'm sure one of my previous male partners who beat me nonconsensually would agree with you but I and thousands of women who are trying to stand up for their rights not to be beaten will not thankyou for your viewpoint.


I guess typing doesn't count.  I must admit nothing I read on here surprises me.
It's a sick world and I'm a happy man.

BadOne

_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

(in reply to lateralist1)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/1/2008 5:07:17 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		Hi, NihilusZero----
I do enjoy that you challenge people to flesh out their thought-processes.  Few people analyze that depthfully. 
Oh, definitely can look at it in a cold and calculating way: I've been accused of doing that excessively sometimes, lol!  My response wasn't an emotional one, rather an analytical one. 
When I call it abuse, I do so because the sub safe-worded out and the Dom continued.  That is a breach of trust.  If a safe-word is in place, that should be respected.  That's why safe-words are there; if one can carry on with what they're doing with impunity regardless of what is going on with another, toss the safe-words (And, imo, toss general human regard...which would be just what some are looking for and if it is and is mutually consensual, rock on).
I call it a massive communication breakdown because I see all manner of other things that could have transpired within the scenario to derail it from the f*cked up, harmful thing it devolved into.  Each person seems to have completely disconnected from the other and the dynamic as a whole went to sh!t. 
I agree wholeheartedly that it doesn't have a thing to do with male or female.  Regardless of the pieces-parts of the Dom or sub in this instance, my assertion remains the same.   
  Davan

(in reply to SailingBum)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/1/2008 5:37:51 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

Hi, NihilusZero----
I do enjoy that you challenge people to flesh out their thought-processes.  Few people analyze that depthfully. 
Oh, definitely can look at it in a cold and calculating way: I've been accused of doing that excessively sometimes, lol!  My response wasn't an emotional one, rather an analytical one. 
When I call it abuse, I do so because the sub safe-worded out and the Dom continued.  That is a breach of trust.  If a safe-word is in place, that should be respected.  That's why safe-words are there; if one can carry on with what they're doing with impunity regardless of what is going on with another, toss the safe-words (And, imo, toss general human regard...which would be just what some are looking for and if it is and is mutually consensual, rock on).
I call it a massive communication breakdown because I see all manner of other things that could have transpired within the scenario to derail it from the f*cked up, harmful thing it devolved into.  Each person seems to have completely disconnected from the other and the dynamic as a whole went to sh!t. 
I agree wholeheartedly that it doesn't have a thing to do with male or female.  Regardless of the pieces-parts of the Dom or sub in this instance, my assertion remains the same.   
  Davan


As I thought through this process again, I am brought back to the statement that this is a "no holds barred" relationship, according to the OP. In consideration of this, then, and of the realization that the fundamental characteristic that makes a no-holds-barred relationship what it is is the loss of the right to revoke consent, and considering that sometimes it takes people a while to let go of old tools, even when they no longer apply to the current work, would it make a difference, logistically, if the safeword was a 'vestigial artifact'... something left over from a past situation that was no longer of any use in the current paradigm? Consider that, if the s-type understood the relationship she was in, and if, in fact, she had agreed to sacrifice her capacity to revoke consent, and, since this is all speculation, if she forgot herself in the moment of intensity of her punishment and used her old (but no longer valid) safeword... does that change the expectations for the scenario?

Just carrying the speculation along one potential path.

Calla Firestorm

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/1/2008 5:58:58 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		Hi, Calla----
If it's a no holds barred relationship and safewords are out, then they're out and I would say you're theoretically absolutely correct. 
In real life, though, I wonder: was the sub acting out in pitching a hissy fit disproportional to what was going on, did the Dom get carried away, etc.  What were the real and actual dynamics?  If total control is surrendered by one and thus accepted by another and that is the premise, that changes the consideration somewhat but I don't recall it being that clear unless I missed something initially.  If that is the case, could the Dom not have taken a moment to remind the sub of such?  Here's where I come back to a potential communication break-down, although I know some would argue that giving over consent entirely means you don't get to ask questions/expect answers to queries posed/really don't get anything that the Dom doesn't see fit to proffer; making someone a slave more than a sub.  I would need more information but your potential permutation does offer a possibly different set of details in the dynamic, imo.  And, what are your thoughts on the scenario that you put forth? 
  Davan

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/1/2008 6:13:46 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		I'm going ahead and quoting the OP again, so that you can see where I noted the "no holds barred" relationship.

quote:

So I thought I'd ask. Do you find this scenario acceptable?

* The submissive has submitted to the dominant in a full, no holds barred, sort of way (call it what you want).
* The dominant issues a command which the submissive very strongly does not want to do.
* The dominant then proceeds to corporal punishment.
* The submissive starts crying and screaming for him to stop, including uttering whatever passes for safe words if any exist.
* The dominant, at this point, ups the intensity of the corporal punishment
* The submissive tries to get away, but cannot
* At the end of the story, the submissive still doesn't want to obey (big surprise there)


To answer your question, if I knew the servant (which I certainly would by the time one of mine took the TPE step), I'd take it as a warning if xhe safeworded after going through our transition period -- to me, that would indicate a level of intensity where xhe wasn't thinking... so I'd probably pause for a moment to make sure I hadn't missed anything, but you know what, I probably would continue after that, at least until I finished what I was doing. The type of 'play' I do is typically artistic -- and leaving a work half-done (especially one that is intended to scar) could be worse than finishing, in the long run.

Now, I don't know how to gauge the intensity level this speculative d-type was using in the OP, since this was, to my understanding, a made-up scenario, but I'd also like to say that sometimes, after pausing, the s-type perceives the re-start as more intense than the earlier work. I'd probably also be talking with the s-type, and remind hir of hir new status, and watch carefully to make sure that I hadn't done anything xhe couldn't, in fact, handle... and to make sure something hadn't gone awry, like a branding pen left too long in a single spot or applied too deeply, or a cut that wouldn't stop bleeding, or a piercing that was putting pressure on a nerve.

For the OP... to me, that just seems like it would be a bad-news situation all the way round, if it were, in fact, a real situation. But most of this discussion has been more about setting aside preconceptions, to me, and showing how thin the ice can be, and how broad the possibilities when there are so many variables left unexplained, and when there is such a huge dichotomy present in the details that -are- provided.

Calla Firestorm

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 10/1/2008 6:16:58 PM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to DavanKael)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/1/2008 7:27:15 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		Hi, Calla----
Thank you or taking thetime to elucidate your thoughts on the proposed scenario. 
the scenario put forth makes the s-type person sound more like a slave than a submissive if they abdicate any say at all, imo. 
I think you demonstrated the pragmatism I hoped would happen in a real-world situation when you mentioned pausing and/or dialoguing throughout and/or being especially diligent about what's going on with the other. 
You raise a good point: I suppose in the instance of permanent body modification, finishing rather than half-done may be better.  At least, imo, for me, it would be.  Then again, I cringe when I see people walking around with half-inked tats, lol! 
I agree that the scenario the OP posed sounds like bad news. 
Oh,and my compliments on using the quote from "Reptile" as part of your signature; one of the most creepy, crawling, darkly sexy songs ever!  :> 
  Davan

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/1/2008 7:31:06 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael
Oh, definitely can look at it in a cold and calculating way: I've been accused of doing that excessively sometimes, lol!  My response wasn't an emotional one, rather an analytical one.

Just to be clear, that wasn't meant to be a derogatory comment directed towards you at all.

I was saying that in a flowery way of creating a visual of me asking the people of the thread to sit at the figurative table with me in a certain mindset.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 10/1/2008 7:34:25 PM >

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

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(in reply to DavanKael)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/1/2008 7:34:26 PM   
NormalOutside


Posts: 622
Joined: 1/8/2008
Status: offline 		If the agreement was that the submissive would do anything they were ordered to, and agreed to have no hard limits, and agreed to be punished if they couldn't handle the orders given by the dominant, then I don't see any problem with what you described.  Everything occurred as it was agreed upon beforehand.

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/1/2008 7:46:12 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		Gotcha, NihilusZero----
It's all good.  :> 
  Davan 

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/2/2008 5:45:53 AM   
spankablemilf


Posts: 57
Joined: 9/26/2008
Status: offline 		This is the first opinion that I've read that actually makes sense to me.  I guess I'm in the minority though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

So I was trolling around on another site, not a BDSM one, and came across a post that I responded to.  But that response got me to thinking two things...

a)  This question isn't all that uncommon from people just considering submission.
b)  In the various responses, there was a general assertion that the "BDSM crowd" would attest that this was not just OK, but desireable.

So I thought I'd ask.  Do you find this scenario acceptable?
  • The submissive has submitted to the dominant in a full, no holds barred, sort of way (call it what you want).
  • The dominant issues a command which the submissive very strongly does not want to do.
  • The dominant then proceeds to corporal punishment.
  • The submissive starts crying and screaming for him to stop, including uttering whatever passes for safe words if any exist.
  • The dominant, at this point, ups the intensity of the corporal punishment
  • The submissive tries to get away, but cannot
  • At the end of the story, the submissive still doesn't want to obey (big surprise there)


Please assume no hidden agendas in these items.  This wasn't "funishment".  She really, genuinely, truly wanted him to stop despite her previous blanket consent.  She was not getting some hidden kink satisfied here.  She is not a masochist.  She does not have some "fear dynamic" kink.  She does not have a "control kink".  Plain and simple, he beat her till she complied (or he got tired anyway) against her clear and express wishes at the time.

So, D and S types both... is this acceptable behavior?  Do you find this to be "forceful dominance" or something different?


this scenario confuses me on many different levels. first, the submissive has supposedly submitted totally/fully to this Dominant. perhaps she is a slave, or some near equivalent. got it. said Dominant then issues a command which said submissive does not wish to obey. fine, happens to us all, we're not going to wish to do everything our Dominants/Masters demand of us. you then say the Dominant physically punishes the submissive...this is confusing because it is never stated whether or not she obeyed the command? just because a submissive may not wish to obey, does not mean that she would make the decision NOT to obey.

anywho, moving on from that thorn...we'll just assume she disobeyed. now WHY she would willfully disobey, when supposedly she has given her complete submission to this Dominant, is another huge question. so then here comes the physical punishment, and she proceeds to cry out and beg for him to stop, even using a "safeword." (which poses the question of why one who had submitted totally has a safeword, but i digress...) why is she trying to safeword/beg out of a punishment? she disobeyed, the punishment is therefore warranted, what is she thinking?? the Dominant then proceeds to complete the punishment. at the end, she still has no desire to obey. but the purpose of punishment is retribution for her disobedience, not to create a desire to obey. and again, having no desire to obey a particular command is not reason enough not to heed said command, not if you are a submissive in a D/s dynamic, and certainly not if the submission is "total."

was the submissive's behavior in this scenario acceptable? absolutely not, imo. was the Dominant's? as described, yes, absolutely.

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/2/2008 5:57:33 AM   
spankablemilf


Posts: 57
Joined: 9/26/2008
Status: offline 		I can not imagine any situation where a safeword would be permissable during a punishment.  What kind of sense does that make?  It doesn't.  That's like saying to a COP I don't want the ticket so take it back.  Now if she decides after such incident that she no longer wants to be a slave to said person, then she can ask to be released.  Not before.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FlamingRedhead

I agree with missturbation's and Calla's assessment, which seems to be the unpopular vote, that this scenario is acceptable.  If a submissive person enters a no holds barred relationship and issues a slave veto, that person had better be prepared to be punished for disobedience or released.  I don't see corporal punishment as a way to force submission because there are some instances where someone might rather take the punishment than do what was asked.  I also don't believe in a safe word during punishment.  Punishment isn't meant to be fun or enjoyable or controlled by the bottom.  Of course, we have no way of knowing whether this was a simple spanking or a full-body beating that landed her in the ER, etc, to say whether this was abusive, but I'm surprised at the number of people jumping on the bandwagon.

(in reply to FlamingRedhead)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/2/2008 10:23:52 AM   
tsatske


Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
Status: offline 		I can't imagine MOST of this scenario, in its current configuration and combinations. However, since it is there, if you accept that someone has a safeword, then that is part of their aggreement, and he should stop.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/3/2008 8:08:10 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		So there's much talk here about the safeword.  To be fair, I inserted that as an effort to interpret into BDSM-speak for this example.  What I meant by her using a safeword was simply that she communicated effectively and clearly in no uncertain terms that she did not wish for this activity to continue.  For those that are hung-up on the "safeword", I'm curious what you would think if I hadn't used the "safeword" angle, and instead simply said...

She looked up at him and said, 'If you don't stop right now, I'm going to call the cops.'

Would you then still feel that the dominant's behavior was warranted?
When the dominant ended up in jail, would you feel it was her fault or his?

(and again, where I live, assuming evidence actually supported her story, the 'but she previously had agreed' line would not be a valid defense.  In other words, the legal system does not honor the concept of permanent consent whether or not you do.)

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to tsatske)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/3/2008 8:40:17 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

So there's much talk here about the safeword.  To be fair, I inserted that as an effort to interpret into BDSM-speak for this example.  What I meant by her using a safeword was simply that she communicated effectively and clearly in no uncertain terms that she did not wish for this activity to continue.  For those that are hung-up on the "safeword", I'm curious what you would think if I hadn't used the "safeword" angle, and instead simply said...

She looked up at him and said, 'If you don't stop right now, I'm going to call the cops.'

Would you then still feel that the dominant's behavior was warranted?
When the dominant ended up in jail, would you feel it was her fault or his?

(and again, where I live, assuming evidence actually supported her story, the 'but she previously had agreed' line would not be a valid defense.  In other words, the legal system does not honor the concept of permanent consent whether or not you do.)


The legal system is completely irrelevant in this situation as a basis for whether or not appropriate action was taken, because in most jurisdictions, -any- physical assault, whether agreed to or not, has no legal basis for justification, and is considered assault and/or battery and can be fully prosecuted with or without the "offended" party's pressing of charges.

Now, that being said, if she had said "If you don't stop right now, I'm going to call the cops." and he continued, he would be one of the most blatant idiots ever to exist. NEVER disbelieve someone who says that xhe's going to call the law on you, regardless of any previous agreements.

With that being said, if he continued, and she called the cops, he would go to jail, and it would be his own damned fault for being a bloody idiot.

This does not change that she broke her word, disavowed her promise, and behaved as an oathbreaker -- in fact, it reinforces that position with the addition of the threat of legal retaliation if he continued to enforce the terms of their original agreement.

Calla Firestorm

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 10/3/2008 8:41:27 AM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Is this dominance to you? - 10/3/2008 9:11:40 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		If this is a scenario between two people that actually have been in a long relationship but are just trying this new dynamic they probably have a lot of talking to do afterwards to make things a bit nicer really. If she decides to walk away with a sore bottom and hurt pride things are not too bad and i do not see the need for police intervention.
On the other hand if this is a Dom who charmed a silly sub in to 'full' submission, then commands her to do something He might expect her to struggle with or be incapable of doing and then 'punishes' her, and when He knows she really has no interest in the game anymore...He ups the intensity of His punishment....was it Him all about this? Did He set her up? is this how He gets off? If this is so then this man is a predator and should be stopped and punished as eventually He might kill somebody....but no matter how the law stands...the silly girl will have a rough time getting justice such is still our society.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 180
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