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Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 4:12:17 PM

leadership527

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So I was trolling around on another site, not a BDSM one, and came across a post that I responded to. But that response got me to thinking two things...

a) This question isn't all that uncommon from people just considering submission.
b) In the various responses, there was a general assertion that the "BDSM crowd" would attest that this was not just OK, but desireable.

So I thought I'd ask. Do you find this scenario acceptable?

The submissive has submitted to the dominant in a full, no holds barred, sort of way (call it what you want).
The dominant issues a command which the submissive very strongly does not want to do.
The dominant then proceeds to corporal punishment.
The submissive starts crying and screaming for him to stop, including uttering whatever passes for safe words if any exist.
The dominant, at this point, ups the intensity of the corporal punishment
The submissive tries to get away, but cannot
At the end of the story, the submissive still doesn't want to obey (big surprise there)

Please assume no hidden agendas in these items. This wasn't "funishment". She really, genuinely, truly wanted him to stop despite her previous blanket consent. She was not getting some hidden kink satisfied here. She is not a masochist. She does not have some "fear dynamic" kink. She does not have a "control kink". Plain and simple, he beat her till she complied (or he got tired anyway) against her clear and express wishes at the time.

So, D and S types both... is this acceptable behavior? Do you find this to be "forceful dominance" or something different?

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

Post #: 1

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 4:18:42 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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No, I do not find it acceptable or "forceful dominance" at all.

a) corporally punishing someone for refusing to do an order when there is no explanation or agreement that the order was reasonable and that punishment is appropriate is completely ridiculous and just a doms way of forcing the issue rather than actually dealing with it Thus setting off the entire spiraling chain of events. Without agreement on reasonability and appropriateness, punishment is completely ineffective.

b) The fact that they have safewords means that they both accept responsibility for using and applying them- he chose not to do that, that is unacceptable

c) the continued ignoring of the safeword would have ME calling the situation abusive, though I would not presume to answer for another

Submission is irrelevant, masochism is irrelevant, forceplay is irrelevant. It's all basic functional relationship dynamic stuff.

_____________________________

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Post #: 2

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 4:18:54 PM

MRandme

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Ummm... sounds like assault to me.

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Sweet be your dreams, may your happiness swell,
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i've gone to be with Him again...

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Post #: 3

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 4:19:23 PM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
In the various responses, there was a general assertion that the "BDSM crowd" would attest that this was not just OK, but desireable.

While it might be "OK" for some, it certainly wouldn't be "OK" for me. We don't "DO" punishment...we communicate and are accountable for our behaviors. But I believe that most people that do "DO" punishment....their reasoning for doing so is usually along the lines of a rational actions that are undertaken to enforce a point, correct a behavior and teach a lesson. The scenario that you described certainly does not seem to fit that sort of reasoning.

_____________________________

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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

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Post #: 4

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 4:22:39 PM

missturbation

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Unforunately there really isn't enough info to give a definitive answer here.

The submissive has submitted to the dominant in a full, no holds barred, sort of way (call it what you want).
Then the follow up punishment is perfectly acceptable in my opinion.

The submissive starts crying and screaming for him to stop, including uttering whatever passes for safe words if any exist
If the submissive has given no kolds barred consent this would imply no limits or safe word to me so perfectly acceptable.
If however she has been given a safe word to use then his ignoring it is bang out of order.

The example you give is very vague and hangs on how much control she has actually handed over.

_____________________________

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Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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Post #: 5

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 4:25:08 PM

kiwisub12

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As part of the (apparently) bdsm crowd - i'd have called the cops - sounds like abuse with a capital A to me.

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Post #: 6

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 4:25:46 PM

E2Sweet

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From: TopLeftCornerOf, OH, USA
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In my opinion, here's nothing about blanket consent (or any other BDSM buzzword for that matter) that makes it acceptable to later ignore the withdraw of consent. In reality, people can (and do) change their minds. So, yea, the scenario does not sit well with me at all.

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E2Sweet™
"If it doesn't make you smile then chances are you're not doing it right."

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Post #: 7

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 4:25:50 PM

DarkSteven

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I don't like this scenario. I REALLY don't like it.

1. What exactly is the relationship? Is it actually no limits as described? If not, have the limits been defined?

2. Was the Dom in control? Was he just pissed off and beating the crap out of her, or was there a point to the punishment?

3. Were there agreed upon safewords?

Fault on both sides. She gave a blanket consent either without understanding what she was doing or else having an idea but with no real experience. He pushed her way too far too fast and didn't make her feel safe and cared for.

The relationship's probably over already and each will blame the other.

_____________________________

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 4:25:51 PM

leadership527

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For the sake of this discussion missturbation, you can assume that the submissive originally gave up full authority, but is now attempting to retract that. In M/s terms, she wishes to revoke her submission. It is absolutely a part of this question to think about whether you believe consent can be withdrawn once given.

DarkSteven:
1. Yes, it is full bore Master/slave. Authority transfer without boundary (at least when pre-negotiated) Obviously, that changed.
2. Does it really matter? Unless his point was to drive the sub away, it's pretty clear that he didn't achieve his objectives.
3. Probably not in this context, but assume that she clearly and convincingly said "no".. the moral equivalent of a safeword.

< Message edited by leadership527 -- 9/3/2008 4:29:56 PM >

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Post #: 9

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 4:31:02 PM

kiwisub12

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In the real world consent can be withdrawn at any time. I've never had to do it, but up to the time of anaesthesia the patient can change their mind about surgery. Even though they have a written consent to said surgery.

And any sensible dom , if their sub was withdrawing consent, would pay attention to them. They may not want to ever see the sub again, but they had better pay attention to what they (the sub) is saying. Otherwise the boys in blue may be paying a call with photos of bruises.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 10

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 4:34:02 PM

leadership527

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Well, for the record, I'm in the "call the cops" camp here. But my opinions about these things are not exactly well aligned with the larger community so I wanted to check my work. As I understand the relevant laws in the US, I'm assuming this dom is really switch and is hoping to end up submitting to some huge badass guy in prison.

(in reply to kiwisub12)

Post #: 11

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 4:36:53 PM

missturbation

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

For the sake of this discussion missturbation, you can assume that the submissive originally gave up full authority, but is now attempting to retract that. In M/s terms, she wishes to revoke her submission. It is absolutely a part of this question to think about whether you believe consent can be withdrawn once given.

Okkkkk, i think the problem here lies in communication. I know in my previous relationship i gave up full authority and have been punished for bad behaviour where i have screamed, begged for him to stop and he didn't.
I would have hoped that had i of really taken all i could take he would have read this and stopped. But if he hadnt i would have put it down to bad communication. I accepted this was something which may happen when i gave him full control, had no limits and no safe word.
Fault i would say lies on both sides here. I personally would not say the dominant was anymore abusive than the submissive was silly for getting herself into that position without proper thought and care in the first place.
Probably not going to be a popular opinion but so be it.

Edited to add:

quote:

1. Yes, it is full bore Master/slave. Authority transfer without boundary (at least when pre-negotiated) Obviously, that changed.
3. Probably not in this context, but assume that she clearly and convincingly said "no".. the moral equivalent of a safeword.

quote:

Well, for the record, I'm in the "call the cops" camp here.

So the sub who has given full authority transfer has no accountability?
The Dom may not have recognised she was being deadly serious in her requests to stop. He may be reasonably new to the scene, new playing with her so doesn't know her reactions well yet. There could be all sorts of reasons.
Calling the cops in my opinion would be too strong a reaction straight off the cuff. Yes never go near this man again, yes make sure he understands fully what he has done. If he then believes he was in the right to do what he did and accepts no blame then i'd maybe call the cops.

< Message edited by missturbation -- 9/3/2008 4:45:00 PM >

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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Post #: 12

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 4:43:48 PM

Kalista07

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Perhaps i've consumed one too many pain killer here tonight. But, i think the 'blame' should fall equally on both parts. i guess i don't understand a relationship where You can 'safe word' Your way out of a punishment. In my mind it kind of destroys the purpose or reason of punishment, or atleast the authority. On the other hand, i can not understand or comprehend the logic behind punishing a person until they comply. To me that is called coercion or manipulation, and not a dynamic i want in my M/s relationship.
Perhaps i'm odd though,
Kali

_____________________________

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~~Sweedish Proverb

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Post #: 13

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 4:44:24 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

Ummmm, no.

I'm not going to get into the first bullet so much. I happen to think when two people get to the no holds barred stage, things of this nature are already past.

There are times when those involved in D/s are going to cross certain challenges. One of those will be times that a submissive is directed to do something that they really don't want to do. Oddly enough, these are the times that we find the greatest opportunities for assessment and growth. That's not only true of the sub, but the D as well. How do we handle a sub who is resisting? What is our style? Do we give them time or are we the type to rule with a firm hand? Each makes these decisions according to where we are and where we want to go.

Corporal punishment can work, but the question becomes, is it effective. I have to ask is the style of Domination so weak as we have to rely on a corporal punishment rather than better methods.

To the next bullet, it is My personal opinion that whatever blank check people have written to the type of activities they want to engage in, the use of a safeword should always hault whatever is happening. Sure, a sub could use this to the point of taking advantage, but what if they are sincere? Some things people are willing to risk. I just don't happen to be one of those people. The same goes for uping the punishment once it's known that this is no longer a situation of concent.

So, the submissive tried to get away? Does this mean she is still currently held captive somewhere? Is she being held against her will? I doubt it. I'm sure it's more likely that the two of them had this little issue and then the whole thing was swept under the rug. She's only got herself to blame the next time she endures a 'punishment' not to her liking.

Bottom line. She's not submitting and he's not Dominating.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Post #: 14

RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 4:49:33 PM

azropedntied

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Not good and not bdsm in my mind , no limits or safety honor or respect was followed .

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RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 4:52:02 PM

IamElise

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If someone is in a consentually sexual relationship and for some reason, one of the participants decides that they don't wish, for whatever reason to have intercourse and the other partner forces themselves on them sexually, it's called rape.

If a submissive does not wish to be beaten, no matter the previous agreements, and the dominant beats them up anyway, it's called assault. And the police should be called.

Being a dominant does not give license to brutality. If anything, it's more of a reason to be protective.

My humble opinion.

(in reply to leadership527)

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RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 4:56:53 PM

BKSir

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From: Salt Lake City, UT
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IamElise

If someone is in a consentually sexual relationship and for some reason, one of the participants decides that they don't wish, for whatever reason to have intercourse and the other partner forces themselves on them sexually, it's called rape.

If a submissive does not wish to be beaten, no matter the previous agreements, and the dominant beats them up anyway, it's called assault. And the police should be called.

Being a dominant does not give license to brutality. If anything, it's more of a reason to be protective.

My humble opinion.

I've gotta go with Elise on this one. By the way, welcome to the forums and site Elise. *HUG*

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I am the voices in your head.

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RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 4:59:36 PM

IamElise

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Thank you kindly for the welcome BK. (smile)

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RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 5:33:44 PM

yourMissTress

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From: Nashville, TN
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To me, the scenariol you described is abuse.

If you have a safeword, then you have an agreement to use it and abide by it. Not discussing the situation and going immediately to punishment, and from the sounds of it a severe one at that, ugh.

< Message edited by yourMissTress -- 9/3/2008 5:34:15 PM >

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Tress

"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother

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RE: Is this dominance to you? - 9/3/2008 5:37:26 PM

DesFIP

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From: Apple County NY
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Not acceptable to me. If I have an objection to something, then it is a reasonable objection, either in itself or how it would affect me. I don't do willful disobedience.

Basically, if he can't convince me logically, then either he's wrong or I'm just not ready for that. Neither one is an excuse for hurting me beyond a level that he knows I can take. Moreover hitting me when he's wrong or unable to explain isn't going to make me think he knows what he's doing. Plus I then would distrust him and if I decided to continue seeing him, it wouldn't be on that level of submission.

And safe words for us are always honored, there's no "it's punishment so I get to break your limits". Me? If someone tried that, my response would be to tell him to stop now or call the police because I will be pressing charges.

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Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

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