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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 1:06:00 AM   
Celeres


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Just about all of western Europe has a minimum wage above $9.50. Are you saying that the USA, which is the richest country in the world, can't afford to pay its poorest workers the same as its competitors?


Just about all of Western Europe pays about $8-9 (USD) per gallon of gas. The cost of living is also much higher in the UK than in the United States. Perhaps we should start comparing ourselves with China who makes a small fraction of money for a large fraction of it's exports?

Where you make money is where you theoretically spend it. A meal in China, (lunch) for one person is about 8-10 Yuan--nothing too extravagant. A meal in the US is about 8-10 bucks, sandwich/burger, soda--again nothing too extravagant. Meal in the UK is on the order of about 10 Pounds when you order fish and chips? (Not that I've been to the UK but that's what I've been told).

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 1:06:44 AM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Minimum wage is the big one. Obama wants to raise it up to somwhere around $9.50 an hour. Which is catastrophic to the economy because many small businesses cant afford to pay that. Most small businesses and the mom and pop stores operate on fragile and small budgets. They dont get these giant surpluses of profits that the mega-corporations have.



Just about all of western Europe has a minimum wage above $9.50. Are you saying that the USA, which is the richest country in the world, can't afford to pay its poorest workers the same as its competitors?


Government isnt the biggest problem in this situation. Corporations disagree that Americans make too little. That's why they send jobs over to China for a worker who will work 60 hour weeks for $2 an hour.


I forgot, after 8 years of Bush the US economy is crumbling and its rich are wearing hair shirts.

What we say in Europe is, if a business can't afford to pay its workers a decent wage, it isn't a business.

I bet some of those American corporations are in Europe and will paying their European workers more than American workers because they can't get away with paying less. Businesses will pay their workers as little as they have to, of course they cry poverty.


Both parties are to blame for it. Clinton started it with NAFTA and making China a "favored nation" trading status. And then Bush put the whole deal on steroids.

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 1:12:58 AM   
Celeres


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Actually it fell back to 49-43 on Wednesday. But these polls are delayed. We wont know the effect of Palin's speech until probably Saturday since it takes the pollsters a few days to survey a large enough sample. Wont have the full effect of McCain's speech until Monday.

It took till the following Tuesday before Obama's bounce showed up in the polls. So we wont know until next Tuesday the effect the RNC Convention has on the polls.


I can pretty much guarantee that the Obama camp has public statements to be run immediately as McCain hopes that God will bless America, before he even has time to leave the stage. And with that said, by Tuesday, we will be in the middle of a political battle between Democrats and Republicans.

I'll agree that I'm pretty biased, but from what I've seen so far between the two National Conventions, there was more enthusiasm at the DNC, and the public seemed to be more engaged. I also felt moved by a lot of the speakers, Sen. Rahm Emanuel, (not so much Al. Gore), President Clinton, Michelle Obama, etc. Last night, as the First Lady gave her speech, veterans could be seen yawning. Tonight, during Gov. Palin's family appeared to have shown up as a chore. Confused family members as Gov. Palin introduced her family.

I don't know. I am sure that I'll be very, very interested to see what will happen in the coming weeks. And if McCain does win, I'll still support our country. I just hope Obama keeps his lead.

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 1:24:56 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeres

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Just about all of western Europe has a minimum wage above $9.50. Are you saying that the USA, which is the richest country in the world, can't afford to pay its poorest workers the same as its competitors?


Just about all of Western Europe pays about $8-9 (USD) per gallon of gas. The cost of living is also much higher in the UK than in the United States. Perhaps we should start comparing ourselves with China who makes a small fraction of money for a large fraction of it's exports?



Meaningless, that means that companies pay more on their transportation costs which would be more incentive to send them scurrying to China. European countries pay the same as the US for their fuel, the government taxes it and with that tax provide cheap public transport for everyone and provide companies with world class infrastructures. I accept the cost of living is high in the UK but what about Germany, France, Italy? The picture is uneven because of national differences but from my experience the US is no cheaper than Germany across the board.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeres

Where you make money is where you theoretically spend it. A meal in China, (lunch) for one person is about 8-10 Yuan--nothing too extravagant. A meal in the US is about 8-10 bucks, sandwich/burger, soda--again nothing too extravagant. Meal in the UK is on the order of about 10 Pounds when you order fish and chips? (Not that I've been to the UK but that's what I've been told).



I agree the UK has a frighteningly high cost of living, however, I regularly pay 8 euro for a healthy meal in Berlinand a couple of Euro for a half litre of fine beer. I don't know about burgers because I don't eat them but as I said above, from my experience I haven't noticed the US being much cheaper than Germany though on reflection, with the dollar falling through the fall, it probably will seem cheaper now.

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 1:28:16 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Both parties are to blame for it. Clinton started it with NAFTA and making China a "favored nation" trading status. And then Bush put the whole deal on steroids.


Surely it is time developed countries realized they have to compete and to compete they have to produce premium products that people will pay good money for. If you are saying the US is suffering because it can't manufacture cheap TVs or fridges anymore, the US economy is in a worse state than most of us thought.

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 2:01:51 AM   
Brain


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Poll Check: Obama Still Heavily Favored to Win White House



By jwilkes - Monday, September 1st, 2008 at 4:00 AM
Forget the close nationwide polls: Barack Obama is the runaway favorite to become the 44th President of the United States.
Now, when I say runaway, I don’t mean it’s going to be a landslide.  What's likely is that the electoral vote count will be fairly close.  But the fact is that in the states he's currently winning, Obama has a stranglehold, and it's becoming nearly impossible for McCain to stage a comeback.  In the states McCain is winning, however, the margins are relatively slim, meaning that Obama could potentially steal a few electoral votes from underneath his opponent's nose.
http://www.eyesonobama.com/blog/content/id_28990/title_Poll-Check-Obama-Still-Heavily-Favored-to-Win-White-House/


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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 2:35:20 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

best, could you clarify that ? How is it the end of small business ?

T

Because small business can't afford Obama's tax to end poverty overseas.


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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 2:56:16 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

best, could you clarify that ? How is it the end of small business ?

T

Because small business can't afford Obama's tax to end poverty overseas.



You are funny.

But small businesses can afford to pay for imperial adventures on behalf of multinational corporations.

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 3:09:00 AM   
SilverMark


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Status: offline 		Unique thread, mostly conjecture but interesting. Obama can't win posted by a conservative poster? As for a number of comments all opinion, if you believe this then there should be statistical data to prove it? In the polls on a state by state basis look at the electoral college votes as of right now Obama not only Can Win, but would win if the projections and averages of the polls overall are any where near correct most projections have Obama at somewhere near 278 electoral votes McCain 247 and in the states that Obama needs the numbers show as tight races. Ohio, Colorado, Virigina, and even Florida. So there is a workable and very precise way that Obama can win no matter the color of his skin. Hmmmmm....second posting I have seen where the topic of race was brought in the FatDomDaddy?
As for the minimum wage and small business, these increases like the one we just had in last year are phased in gradually always have been always will be. there is still another couple of raises coming in the next 2 years,as of 2006 there was a total of 1.7 million workers  earning at or below the FEDERAL minimum wage according to the bureau of labor statistics(1.7 million not many are there?) any state can have a higher minimum wage.A large number of those at that income level work on tips as well so, there incomes can be considerably higher and their minimums are considerably lower.   The fear that runs rampant when the facts aren't known.

These numbers are as of 06' .

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 5:28:34 AM   
FatDomDaddy


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Status: offline 		The Polls proved to be way out of line with actual votes in the Obman Clintion primaries.

The big buzz was the phenomena of Obama's poll numbers skewing much lower on election day in actual vote totals. The reason.... white responders were lying to the pollsters for fear of being called racists. BTW Mark.... why the big bug-a-boo about race? Just because its not PC to talk about it? This is the second time you have had stated a thinly veiled remark that I might have racist leanings. IOK... political retort to rally the troops but to paraphrase  on of the worlds iconic phrases, racism is that last refuge of a scoundrel .   Race will be the big out spoken issue in U.S. Presidential Election of 2008  to say can win the Presidency of the United States with a minority of white voters is my opinion either blind faith or being completely naive to the numbers. You can crunch all the electoral numbers you want, in the end the elected President is going to have a total majority of  white voters. The Clinton's knew this, Rendell, MacAlliffe, Carvelle even Joe Biden knows this. It is the exact reason he is on the ticket. The combination of being the most liberal candidate in Democrat history added to being Black will be the undoing of his candidacy.  But I will I'll say it again, when the first African American is elected President, that President will be a Conservative Republican. I think we will see before 2048, maybe before 2024 and with any luck by 2020 and I look forward to voting for him or her. And btw... I mean it when I say Obama running for President makes me proud to be an American. I think it is the most historical event in the Black experience of this county (Even if Obama himself did not arise out of said experience.)

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 6:24:54 AM   
SilverMark


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Status: offline 		I care less about political correctness mine was only an observation of fact.If you introduce race as an issue the fact that you do so becomes part of the discussion. At this time the only thing there is to go on until the election are the numbers compiled on voter opinion so, if the numbers hold true FatDD...you will be incorrect. If I am a scoundrel, it has nothing to do with My politics...lol 
How is it you surmise that Obama didn't live the "black" experience? Single Mother, raised in a large part by Grandparents, Went to college on scholarship and student loans oh...and not to mention the color of his skin? just curious... Does being successful at what he has done to rise to the Nominee of a major political party disqualify him? Have I missed something? In actuality to be of a mixed race might have been tougher than being of either race...not sure about it Myself...I am just another Old White Guy....and only lived the Old White Guy Experience....

< Message edited by SilverMark -- 9/4/2008 6:26:03 AM >

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 6:29:36 AM   
lronitulstahp


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quote:

(Even if Obama himself did not arise out of said experience.)

Because he's mixed??? Trust me, mixed race black people get our fair share of the "black experience" in this country.Perhaps because he spent time overseas as a child?  Once again, trust me, when he got back, and before he left, i'm sure he got his fair share.  It pretty much happens every day.  Sure... there's no getting sprayed with firehoses every waking minute...but subtlety isn't lost on anyone living the "black experience". 

Just the fact that people are in panic mode thinking of nothing but disqualifiers as to why he seems unfit to even breathe, is proof enough.  i find it funny...Obama and Clinton are part of the same party.  Every party has a platform.  So in essence, he and Clinton would have shared the same basic policy guidelines (with a bit tweaking here and there) but once he secured the nomination... the floodgates opened about his "socialist globalist" stance etc.  As i've said before...criticize his lack of experience if you will, that's a valid concern.  That was my major concern in regard to Obama.  But when people get nasty, and personal, and seem as if they are filled with such vile enthusiasm...it seems like there may be a different motivating factor.  When i lived in Alabama, i once had an old lady call me "uppity".  (look it up, if you don't understand) Maybe that's Obama's real weakness where many are concerned.  When he first announced he was running, i thought.  "Dude...you need more time!"  But perhaps there is something to his "audacity of hope" message.  i keep hoping people stop posting bullshit, and skewed facts to make their party look better than the other.  i see very little difference between the Dem/Repub fundamentalists  the Sunni/Shiite ones. (other than the whole blowing up each other part....though if some of you had bombs at your disposal...i'd be worried) i keep hoping people take self-inventory, and ask themselves if Obama's skin color does play more of a role than they care to admit. 

i have said openly, i like McCain...horror of horrors, i know.  But i think, politically, i liked the McCain that the GOP fucked over royally.  The guy that didn't bow down and play according to the "party's always right" mentality.  i kept hoping that guy would resurface....but as it happens from time to time, that guy became a company man.  i'm not blaming him.  i mean the GOP really gave him an ass fucking, and not the good kind.  i'm sure they broke him down.  It doesn't even  make him a bad guy, horse---carrot....we've all fallen prey.  However, i base my dislike of a candidate as a choice based largely on their party's platform.  McCain as a human being, an improvement by leaps and bounds over Bush....but the party seems stuck in their current way of thinking. Focusing on gay marriage and abortion as a means of NOT fully dealing with the economy, the environment, the demise of adequate public education, and healthcare...not my idea of government.   Perhaps alot of Americans are tired of the mire in which we are presently stuck.  But all that being said...i don't think a large enough percentage of people are open-minded enough to let that sense of unease and unrest motivate them to vote for a black person, with an African last name.  It's a pity...McCain has become a disappointment, and Obama may be too big a risk. (Lest we forget, we still have the big bad electoral college at play)  It seems in November, we'll only choose " ...at least he's NOT Bush..." however the cookie crumbles.

So FatDom...you are likely right, and for the reason you stated.  But that is a sad commentary on the state of this nation.
quote:

In order for Obama to be elected President of the United States in 2008, he will need a majority of white voters in the United States to vote for him and that is just not going to happen.




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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 6:39:33 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

As I've said before the Dems are going to be kicking themselves in November for not nominating Hillary.
People aren't going to vote for a Global Socialist who wants to give their money away to foreign countries.


You mean like the billions we're pissing away in Iraq while the Iraqi government is generating huge budget surpluses from oil revenue? 

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 6:39:53 AM   
BLKMADONA


Posts: 117
Joined: 6/11/2004
Status: offline 		I dont know why Im posting in this thread. I dont have a political bone in My body. I think Im on a thread roll. At anyrate, I could careless who wins and Ill tell u why. I put my faith in NO MAN. Man is corruptable(which I dont even need to give examples as history is overflowing with them), and imperfect. The way this world is, its going to hell in a handbasket and I mean quick! Its going to get worse before it gets better and no man can change that, Obama or McCain, or my grandma. I do not complain about it either for the simple fact of..well....of what I just said. Do not get it twisted, Im not a holly-roller. I do not go to church as thus far what Ive seen are nothing but "businesses and empires" using the word of God, in the name of God. I do however belive in Him, and as He said(in lamens terms) its going to get worse before it gets better. Plain and simple.

Blkmadona

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 6:43:46 AM   
xXLithiumXx


Posts: 723
Joined: 9/2/2008
From: Hell, Kentucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Minimum wage is the big one. Obama wants to raise it up to somwhere around $9.50 an hour. Which is catastrophic to the economy because many small businesses cant afford to pay that. Most small businesses and the mom and pop stores operate on fragile and small budgets. They dont get these giant surpluses of profits that the mega-corporations have.



Just about all of western Europe has a minimum wage above $9.50. Are you saying that the USA, which is the richest country in the world, can't afford to pay its poorest workers the same as its competitors?



It can. But our country is so dependant on out side markets that the prices will be so high that even at 9.50 you wont be able to live. Milk in my home town is 5$ a gallon. Gas is reaching towards that. Do you think we curb the use of those things? No. We "have" to have them. In short, the more you make the more you spend.  In the eyes of a government that is built on the screaming, broken backs of the poor, by the hands of the corrupt, its a placating manuver to keep us in check. Make people believe that you are giving them something better than what they have and they will in turn do anything you want for them.

While this started as a thread about Obama, and how he wouldnt become president, I have to agree that he may not, tho not because of color, but perhaps because of ethnic background. He comes from the middle east. His history is there, where do you think his loyalty lies? And it being stated that this is an election of negativity is a correct assumption. People dont want to vote for Hillary because they see Bill when they look at her and think of him as a snake and this simply being his way to get back in the White House. People see McCain and they see old guy with no common sense to check what he says in public. People see Obama and they see middle east, or black guy. While some one has to win, I dont think it speculation will do anything at this point. Its simply a waiting game.  At this point the tide can be turned in any ones favor, except Hillary, unless she has done something in the last few days that I have missed and isnt in.

Basically this country is screwed. We have painted ourselves into a corner or dependancy based on out side markets and microwave quick fixes. We dont feel we should have to think for ourselves, we dont feel we should call into account the morals of our government because we as people dont want to call into account our own morals. Not that I am spouting Christian Indignation, but in fact, we let them get by with murder, rape, torture, and everything else, why wouldnt we let them get by with bribing us for 9.50 and hour so they can ass rape us in taxes and price hikes? They have so far, and the newest minimum wage increase isnt even fully into effect yet.

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 6:47:00 AM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		"In order for Obama to be elected President of the United States in 2008, he will need a majority of white voters in the United States to vote for him and that is just not going to happen."

I disagree.

Bush-Kerry and Bush-Gore were so close they could have gone either way.  Use those elections as a baseline - how many who voted Dem back then, would refuse to vote for a black man? 

Obama's answer to those elections is twofold - he's redefining the electorate by targeting blacks and younger voters, who have traditionally underrepresented at the polls, and signing them up in droves.  And he's also trying to make likely Dem voters more likely to vote come November.

I've always maintained that the voters who will refuse to vote for a black man, would not be voting for a liberal Dem anyway, so that the racism effect will be nil.  That gets countered with the new voter registrations, the galvanizing of the black vote, the organizational effectiveness, and the horrible perception of Bush and the GOP.

Right now I'd give it to Obama, but who knows what can happen in the next two months?


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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 6:51:03 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xXLithiumXx

He comes from the middle east. His history is there, where do you think his loyalty lies?



Obama was born in Hawai. Last time I checked, it was a state of the USA. His mother was American. His father was from Kenya. Hardly the Middle East, is it? I'd say his loyalties are fiercely in this country. Not that they should even be questioned... but his mixed heritage made him fodder for lies and rumours.


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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 7:00:02 AM   
xXLithiumXx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: xXLithiumXx

He comes from the middle east. His history is there, where do you think his loyalty lies?



Obama was born in Hawai. Last time I checked, it was a state of the USA. His mother was American. His father was from Kenya. Hardly the Middle East, is it? I'd say his loyalties are fiercely in this country. Not that they should even be questioned... but his mixed heritage made him fodder for lies and rumours.



I have to look again, and maybe you are right, I admit that I could be wrong. I discounted the man a long time ago as being the anti christ, but it seems I did read some where that he grew up some where in the middle east. Perhaps I was thinking middle east and in fact read Kenya. Which ever, my apologies for assaulting your obviously better information.

http://www.biography.com/featured-biography/barack-obama/index.jsp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakarta


Indonesia. My bad.

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 7:05:38 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xXLithiumXx

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Minimum wage is the big one. Obama wants to raise it up to somwhere around $9.50 an hour. Which is catastrophic to the economy because many small businesses cant afford to pay that. Most small businesses and the mom and pop stores operate on fragile and small budgets. They dont get these giant surpluses of profits that the mega-corporations have.



Just about all of western Europe has a minimum wage above $9.50. Are you saying that the USA, which is the richest country in the world, can't afford to pay its poorest workers the same as its competitors?





While this started as a thread about Obama, and how he wouldnt become president, I have to agree that he may not, tho not because of color, but perhaps because of ethnic background. He comes from the middle east. His history is there, where do you think his loyalty lies?



The middle east of what?  Chicago?

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 7:08:16 AM   
xXLithiumXx


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From: Hell, Kentucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xXLithiumXx

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: xXLithiumXx

He comes from the middle east. His history is there, where do you think his loyalty lies?



Obama was born in Hawai. Last time I checked, it was a state of the USA. His mother was American. His father was from Kenya. Hardly the Middle East, is it? I'd say his loyalties are fiercely in this country. Not that they should even be questioned... but his mixed heritage made him fodder for lies and rumours.



I have to look again, and maybe you are right, I admit that I could be wrong. I discounted the man a long time ago as being the anti christ, but it seems I did read some where that he grew up some where in the middle east. Perhaps I was thinking middle east and in fact read Kenya. Which ever, my apologies for assaulting your obviously better information.

http://www.biography.com/featured-biography/barack-obama/index.jsp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakarta


Indonesia. My bad.





I just noted the mixed heratige part.

Let me be clear, because I know you can see I am from Kentucky, so I have to be a card carrying KKK member right?  I dislike him. Thats MY choice, and MY opinion. Being insulting wont change that. I dont dislike him because he is black, I have two mixed nephews and a black brother in law. I happen to also have a plethora of black friends. But, if it makes everyone feel better to make this about race. Hey, awesome.

I simply took something I read and transposed it onto Obama. Simple mistake. Not a big deal. No sense having a heart attack. You wont do himany good if youre dead and cant vote, now will you?

I dont like McCain either, does that mean I hate old people? Lets throw that out there as well and see how that goes.

I didnt like Hillary either. Does that mean that I hate women? Not possible. Im bi and I love women.

This argument borders insanity simply because you come into the thread, and find one MINOR thing, which I have corrected, and apologized for, and hey...heres a band wagon of people bashing on one mis-stated term, lets jump right on and over look the original idea.

Perhaps Obama is the victim of lies and slander, fact is, so is any one else who runs in any election. They call that Mud slinging. Its been practice for hundreds of years. Propaganda. Again, its been around a while.

He's not from the middle east. Okay. Again..my bad. Im sorry. I misread. I posted two links backing that up didnt I?

But lets be petty, shall we? That always seems to work best when we dont hear what we want to. Or when our ideals are being threatened, and we dont know how to defend them.

Fact is, I have no real reason NOT to like Obama, I just dont. I dont like any of them. I dont see any of them doing anything to change the situation that this country is in. I dont see anything on their records, or in what they say but a bunch of bull shit. At some point, some where, they will, can, or have, screwed the American people.

If Obama does what he says he will and get us the hell out of a fight thats been going on since Biblical times, YAY! Ill have a lil Obama loving party in my back yard. If he can get those people home in a matter of days...WooHooo! Ill have a weekend bash to celebrate his radiant glory for doing what Bush wouldnt do, or didnt have the balls to do, or couldnt do. What ever.

Fact is, youre beating a dead horse with going on about geography. I corrected myself. Gave references, and moved on.

< Message edited by xXLithiumXx -- 9/4/2008 7:18:11 AM >

(in reply to xXLithiumXx)
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